I am trying to do my due diligence about this arm. I am just having a hard time getting my head around this idea of zero overhang and no offset. Does this arm really work the way it is reported to do?
All I can say is that people are entitled to like what they want but then they are not true audiophiles.
@mijostynWell, you have said many times we must ignore what our ears hear, so that bit is consistent. Except for when you later told me all sorts of distortion was "audible"! I must ask you to review the etymology and meaning of "audiophile" and then get back to me with an explanation that makes clear that if I like what I hear I am not a true audiophile, but if I like what you like, I qualify. Currently, it seems that if I don't like what I hear, I am an audiophile. Is that not the upshot of what you have said, or did you misspeak?
For everyone, not just the opinionated, is not what we like the most to listen what we should strive for more of? Both in terms of music and, perhaps in equipment for doing so? Does it matter if it isn't realistic etc? I happen to be rather familiar with a certain opera company's rather nice and relatively new hall. I spent a good deal of cash flying to see three or four operas a year there. I know what that sounds like. Can someone else tell me I must not set up a cartridge in a way that sounds right to my ears on those grounds?
Frankly, I don't give a hoot whether some self-appointed expert here considers me an audiophile. I know how much music I own, like and enjoy. I will continue to do so regardless. But the non-audiophile philosopher in me would like answers.
@mijostyndid not say to 'ignore what our ears hear'. He said (correctly) that our brains are not merely listening machines. They are extremely sophisticated machines that process the raw sound that our ears hear with all sorts of other inputs like emotion and memory and psychological state. We are unreliable at listening to a musical programme and perceiving it as it is. If we think that what we perceive is exactly what our speakers put out then we are fooling ourselves. This has nothing whatsoever to do with whether one is an 'audiophile' or not, whatever may be the meaning of that term (it is certainly not agreed). The brain works for all of us in the same way as we are one species. There are no 'golden ears' that can eliminate all those other inputs than the sound that comes from the speakers.
If you wish to set up a cartridge incorrectly to produce distortions that after processing in your brain you like, that is your prerogative. But don't imagine that every time you listen you will perceive the same sound. You may of course think that you do.
The distortion caused by the Viv are is easily measured and if your system is really good and you know what you are listening to is quite audible.
No one can have it both ways. Either we trust what we hear or we don't. And, BTW, where did you get the idea I set up cartridges incorrectly to produce distortions I like?
None of us should tolerate being told that we don't know what we hear, or shouldn't like what we hear. That, I'm afraid, is nonsense. If you believe all our brains work exactly the same way, we should know that to be true as we will all have the same beliefs, come to the same answers etc etc. It doesn't seem to work out that way, as disproven by anyone who prefers chocolate over cheese, or vice versa. Individual taste comes into it. I'm not arguing for the loons who love weird plug-in filters with no working parts and no conceivable mechanism of action. Until we can measure everything, the best we have is our ears. Even if we could measure everything, might I not prefer one sound over another? I'm saying we like certain things. I like the sound of live opera in a modern opera house I am familiar with. How can you say I am wrong to do so?
@dogberry Yes dogberry, distortion above a certain level is quite audible especially if it is not low order harmonic. Lower levels of distortion may be audible by people who know what to listen for. This has nothing to do with evaluating the low distortion performance of an audio system. What sounds right to some people can be woefully inaccurate. You can not trust what other people think a system sounds like unless you know that person and their system very well. Even then as @clearthinkerhas mention we are all subject to modifiers based on mood and internal biases that we might not even be aware of.
Dogberry, I like both chocolate and cheese, but I am too damn fat and am desperately trying to avoid both of them. On the bright side listening to music and using my Weller soldering station do not cause weight gain.
An audiophile is never entirely happy with their system. It is the same with racing cars, always looking for a way to go faster. Once you are totally satisfied you are not longer an audiophile. You are just a music lover. Not a bad place to be. Certainly a lot less expensive.
"What does audiophile mean?
a person who is very interested in and enthusiastic about equipment for playing recorded sound, and its quality: For an audiophile the quality of streamed music is sometimes inadequate.Feb 1, 2023"
I like both cheese and chocolate but I am too damn fat and am trying to avoid both. On the bright side playing with my Weller soldering station and listening to music are not fattening. Praise be to the lord.
If you are an opera buff then you REALLY need to go to Milan and see a show at Teatro alla Scala. It's like the Sistine Chapel for opera lovers.
Well, more that twice times in this and other forums I posted that we listen/hear through all our body. This means we hear not only through the ears but through the sking nervous terminations, through the hair, through the bones, trhough our muscles and so on.
All those kind of sound body sensors we all have send the sound information to our neurons/brain whom along several and many of them unknowed functions ( that includes, emotion, feellings, remembrances, memories, mood handle and the like ) tell us and form a MUSIC whole scenario that could be way different of what we perceive through our ears. The " I like it " is full of misinterpretations and misunderstoods till we understand what surrounded it.
We can attend two days in a raw to listen the same score in a hall and you can be sure that exist " differences " between listen sessions .
It’s proved by science that we can " listen " over 50khz and obviously below 16hz.
Human been organism is extremely complex for say the least where not even the Universe is so perfect and complex for even scientifics understand it in full.
Seems to me that several or almost all discussions in audio forums are more a place not to learn but to show who is rigth or wrong when at the end almost no one is wrong but only in the obvious.
Like @clearthinker I believe too that new technology not always is better and one of several examples that could confirm that was the fail or not success of the Lasser Disc used to play LPs, where for whatever reason just disappeared after short time.
I remember that more than twice I posted that all of you could make a test in a home listening sessions where your clothe one day where made by natura fabric: cotton, silk, wool, etc, etc and other day clothing polyesther fabric and you will know something is different.
Same if you listen naked against with your clothe in your body, You " listen " and perceives insoun in different ways. Don’t trust in my words and make those tests with the same choosed LPs tracks.MUSIC is and art just like poetry or look a Da Vinci work or the like. So all of us react of different way to the Mona Lisa paint or Rembrandt paint or poems by you choice of poetry or to other art as sculpture.
That’s why we like MUSIC and what we listen through all our body in the home system or in a live event.
@mijostyn has stated that along with @clearthinker, they both are aligned in their thoughts on the following, " we are all subject to modifiers based on mood " -
Music being the stimulus that it is, and when detected being present, is going to have a effect on the mood, it is used in many situations as a method to modify a mood, and even used in conjunction with other stimulus to manipulate a mood.
Music is an attraction because of its effect on a mood, and the continued use of music is certainly one carried out with a intent to stimulate and change a mood.
Does not an 'Audiophile' have a desire to encounter mood changes as a result of a auditory stimulus?
@mijostyn also states" An audiophile is never entirely happy with their system "
This is explained in the context of Racing Cars and the Competitive need to pursue the engineering and aerodynamic formulas to give a Team the leading edge in the competition, the want to shave a 100th of second of a Lap.
I have spent time with the best known designers/producers of HiFi Equipment on the planet, some dead now. I have witnessed on numerous occasions, content supplied by individuals who are well known and respected for their products used for the purposes of replaying music.
Never has one suggested I am to be competitive with another or the system. As a layman's description, I would say the individuals are presenting a design based on their philosophies, for what is their belief of what is a requirement for a device to function and meet a certain criteria of performance. I am sure they are appreciative of ones recognition, and the adoption of the design to be used in a system.
I have no doubts a sales person when encountered in an environment that is solely created to create revenues through sales of a particular limited range of devices will be quite keen to inject the notion of being competitive and to rise above other Brands failings, taking ones system to stratospheric levels, as a result of adopting their wares.
Has @mijostyn found this type of sales individual in their experiences and is quite influenced, using the spiel offered to extract monies, as a justification of the substantial monies spent, and is now delusional as to the real value of the parts purchased, but are happy to use the purchases as the reason to create the alter ego of being a unique type of Audiophile. It does sound more like a Equipment'o'phile, throwing oodles of $$$$$$$ at fanciful purchases.
It is amazing how a Filter Fresh Coffee. and a Plate of Exotic Confections, at the price of a few $'s, and a Clever Play on Words can transform ones budget, to finding another few hundred to few thousand $'s. The Sales Team do know a good loss leader and methods required for setting the environment for the steal.
@racedocfantastic, someone who has actually done the same as me and auditioned the Viv against other arms and therefore can speak with 1st hand experience and not theory. I applaud you sir.
Naysayers take a leaf out of this book and go listen.
@racedocI am impressed the ViV 9" Arm superseded in use a combined value of Tonearms that must be near $12-15000 in total value. Must have been a great time doing the evaluations.
Myself on occasion receives a invite to play the role of an evaluator of a work going through R&D and as a working Prototype.
Usually there is a situation where a pre-version of the device under scrutiny can be introduced to the assessment and used as a exact mimic, albeit, as a earlier guise.
This is my interest in equipment and even though used in conjunction with listening to music, it is not anything to do with my interest in listening to music. The listening to music interest, starts with a passion for being present and sharing in a live performance, it can be a Busker through to a Stadium Concert. The listening to recorded music is secondary and a form of home entertainment, and the more the social activity achieved during any of the former are for myself for the betterment.
I really enjoy the creative work carried out by others, learning about the reasoning for the designs and how the designs are produced to reduce known flaws of other designs created and of certain Branded Designs.
I get to experience this through mechanical, micro engineering work, such as works done on Tonearms or Platter Bearings, or alternatively through electronics, such as Signal Path, Speed Control, or Power Supplies.
Fortunately, such days set aside aside for demonstrations are built on a social gathering and the fundamental aim is to spend time with like-minded company.
The work undertaken and being assessed is the secondary aim.
My experiences of sharing in the works undertaken by others, leaves me confident in my knowing these individuals are not lost, they are extremely open minded, a little insular with their IP, but quite interactive and willing to readily share the creation produced with over. Certainly not expectant to win favour with all, or in any way suggest another's choices are faulty and not worthy of a place. This is the antithesis of some of the most recent statements made within this thread by a few contributors.
I get the sense the ViV Arm has something of the above attached to it, maybe this is one of the reasons the Arm has an attraction to me.
In a recent post, it is made known I am soon to be involved with upcoming A/B Comparisons, where I am once more invited to be taking part in as an evaluator. This new period of assessments are designed to enable a much more broader usage of a range of Tonearm models are to be put under the knife, where a subjective assessment will be attributed to all models being demonstrated.
Your description does lead myself to believe there is a like-mindedness shared between us.
@pindac , Sorry pindac but you must live on a different planet. Just look at this discussion. Humans are endlessly competing with others and even themselves. At the route of it all is our survival instinct. If I did not compete with myself I would not be able to make the furnisher I do. Competition is healthy in us until it gets to killing each other. All the audio manufacturers compete with other manufacturers of similar equipment. They have no choice if they want to survive. I do know that many CEOs of audio manufacturers are very close friends with other audio CEOs. AJ Conte was very close with David Fletcher. Both made turntables but they were priced at distinctly different levels and did not compete directly with each other. In fact AJ used David's basic design for his turntables with David's blessing.
We all try to buy what we think is "better." Thus the manufacturers have to make their equipment better which is a good thing.
@rauliruegas Read racedoc's last post. Incredible isn't it. @racedoc, you offer absolutely no rational reason why the Viv arm should not be the disaster it is. You support it purely on an emotional basis, always the road to ruin. You obviously do not know what to listen for. Tracking angle error of that degree changes the timing between channels as the stylus is now reading one channel before the other. This is going to create a phase differential between the channels most prominent at higher frequencies working its way down as the error increases. It is that time and phase information that generates the image. With phase errors the image becomes less distinct. If you can not hear this in an AB comparison with a good normal pivoted arm like the Reed 2G or SME V it is because your system does not image correctly. Don't feel bad, very few systems do image correctly and very few audiophiles have heard a system that images correctly. Most loudspeaker/rooms are incapable of imaging correctly and that includes some very expensive ones.
The Viv arm make a few important points. An arm that does not skate is a good thing. The compromises the Viv arm makes to achieve this are unacceptable. A tonearm has to be held rigidly in all but two directions rotation vertically and rotation horizontally. It can have absolutely no motion in any other direction or the cartridge can not make an adequate representation of the information held in the groove. The Viv arm fails to do this and It's bearing design has no real benefit.
In short, the Viv arm is a Rube Goldberg device and will do down in history as such. It will not be alone. There are many other tonearms that fit in that category. It is what happens when someone with no idea what they are doing designs what they think is a simple device.
Duh… the Viv arm most certainly DOES generate a skating force, except for the instant when TAE = 0. Overhung tonearms generate a skating force even at the two null points (TAE= 0), because of headshell offset.
Underhung tonearms are the antithesis of a Rube Goldberg device. You and some others dislike the idea because it seems too simple.
From another perspective, I do see at times a little competitiveness displayed in relation to HiFi.
When attending a Local Group meeting the Hot Seat can be eyed with intention to have first dibs.
The last Biscuit can be fought over.
As for the equipment belonging to a resident system or a brought along device to be slotted in for a demonstration, I fail to see where the competitiveness is found, the musical encounter is hardly something that generates a King of the Jungle attitude. A curiosity may be expressed, by one who desires to experience an item of interest in ones own system and listening environment.
It will take some convincing to have me embrace such a display of interest as competitiveness.
I do not reveal too much about the work or materials selected to be used, that I have been shown and had descriptions of the merits, that belong to Tonearms I am very familiar with. I can see how revealing too much, might just compromise the Designer/Producers competitive edge. I would not send such a message clearly showing their has been a breach of trust. Again this is equipment based and nothing to do with enjoying a musical encounter.
@chayroThe intended purpose for arm shopping is to locate a candidate for my MC2000. I need to know arm mass on the Viv arm and so far I have been unable to locate that information. Sent an email to the companies official one over a week ago, never got a response. I will stand pat with my DV505 until I can get a bit more information.
@rauliruegas, I did not say that all new technology is better, but as a whole technology moves on and the equipment we have today is far superior the the equipment we had in the 60's. The trend is unmistakable.
@pindac, I do not deal in snobbery pindac. That comment is just an excuse to dismiss opinions you do not like because you have no other way to counter. The Sun rises in the east and sets in the west. You can argue about the definition of east and west but the Sun comes up over there and goes down over yonder. And, you can not do a damn thing about it.
@neonknight, Buying the Viv arm is a huge mistake. You might as well buy a Yugo.
Neon, you might try buying a Viv tonearm by mail order from Tokyo. The exchange rate between the US dollar and the yen is at an all time high, meaning with one dollar you can now buy more than ¥140. Our son has lived in Tokyo since around 2008, and this is the most favorable exchange rate I have ever seen. in fact, we recently sent him some money to buy an apartment in Tokyo. There are very reputable dealers in Tokyo who may be willing to send you an arm, and I might add the prices in Tokyo last time I was there were 30 to 40% less for Viv, compared to the US retail prices. One of my only reservations about buying a Viv, since it is a bit of an unknown quantity, is the very high cost that puts it at a price level similar to very fine overhung tonearms that I would normally avoid due to cost. Not so in Tokyo.
I would try Yodibashi Camera or Hifido, as vendors. Yodibashi is an amazing electronics department store, the likes of which do not exist in the USA. Problem might be that almost no salesperson speaks English. Hifido does have an export business and does speak English.
I liked and agree with almost everything that Raul wrote in his most recent post. Interestingly, I see nothing in there that suggests that one could not gain a great deal of pleasure from a Viv tonearm or that a Viv tonearm or some other underhung tonearm might work better in general than a good overhung tonearm. This thread has devolved into an age old argument between people who go by measurements (or believe they do) and people who go by sensory input, when it comes to judging audio gear. It’s an old argument, and it will never end. In this instance, I do not see a reason for acrimony. We are all after the same thing. I am only urging an open mind. Furthermore, I would venture to guess that neither Raul nor Mijostyn is actually making measurements of his audio gear and the signal that comes out of them. They are most likely going by data supplied by manufacturers and their own considerable funds of knowledge about electronics and distortion. But history is replete with instances where measurements lie. In the early days of solid-state amplification, we had amplifiers that measured harmonic distortion in the order of .000001%. The problem was that when people listened to them, it was obvious that they sounded at least not so good if not also terrible. And this was in comparison to tube amplifiers of those days that produced much more harmonic distortion and had much more limited bandwidth, etc, by actual measurement, but were unmistakably preferable for listening purposes. (Probably not everyone agrees, but consider the Phase Linear 700 amplifier.) So I urge you not to be a slave to one particular parameter, TAE in this case. Just listen. Now Raul's and Mijostyn's listening is evidently of a superior quality to the rest of us. And to some degree this can be true, because they are both very experienced audiophiles (never mind about the definition of an audiophile) , and over many years, they have trained their ears to listen for what they perceive to be a sound that most represents reality. Actually this sort of "training" is a natural process for the few of us who first of all attend a lot of live music events in concert halls and clubs and second of all own elaborate home music reproduction systems. The brain is constantly comparing the two kinds of experience, and if you care enough you want to bring the real one into your home. But I urge both of them to take a look at themselves and realize that in the end they are listening for something they like, so there's nothing wrongheaded about the "I like it" approach, even when others disagree. (Ten years later, anyone's "I like it" might be a much better informed opinion than it is today, if you continue to develop your listening acumen and your system.) One could argue whether either Raul or Mijo has superior judgement based on listening skills, but they are just like the rest of us, some of whom are more canny than others because of putting in the work. Even experienced audio professionals, and I know a few, guys who can and do measure with instruments, because they have to make a living selling good sounding stuff, are nevertheless striving to figure out what sorts of measurement actually correlate with that sense of verisimilitude that any good and eager audiophile is seeking.
Furthermore, I would venture to guess that neither Raul nor Mijostyn is actually making measurements of his audio gear and the signal that comes out of them. They are most likely going by data supplied by manufacturers and their own considerable funds of knowledge about electronics and distortion. But history is replete with instances where measurements lie. In the early days of solid-state amplification, we had amplifiers that measured harmonic distortion in the order of .000001%.
FWIW, times have changed and for the better. We can now measure the differences we hear between components- if the knowledge is there to know what to look for and how to do the measurements. IOW if the measurements are done properly they don't lie.
Time hasn't changed human nature though.
Drawing the line between what we hear and what we can now measure is likely to draw ire from both the subjective and objective camps. The very idea! But if you want to get down to knowing what's really going on, that's what has to be done. The acrimony between the two camps has to end.
"IOW if the measurements are done properly they don't lie." What is in dispute even among objectivists (and I don't like the word because it ignores that we are left to make subjective judgements even when we have objective data) is the definition of "properly", and who says that measurement X (or Y or Z) correlates with the sound of live music in a real space? Best we can hope for is a kind of consensus that evolves over time.
@rauliruegasI note you said I have a closed mind and am stupid. I am the very antithesis of a closed mind, that is why I am prepared to try things that break the normal convention, which appears to be the very opposite of yourself and @mijostyn, who are stuck in the world of dogma, theory etc. And as for being stupid, anybody that knows me would never call me that.
When it comes to closed minds I think you need to take a long hard look in the mirror.
As I said in an earlier post you and @mijostynare 'The Handmaid's Tale ' of the audio world.
Ralph says above, "Drawing the line between what we hear and what we can now measure is likely to draw ire from both the subjective and objective camps. The very idea! But if you want to get down to knowing what's really going on, that's what has to be done. The acrimony between the two camps has to end."
I'm with @atmasphereon this one. I'd have been fine with sharing some thoughts on this if the conversation had maintained civility.
I'm not sure about the 'world view' bit. This is a mechanical engineering problem.
The arm tube doesn't appear rigidly coupled to its base (being suspended by yarn), so if vibration is present at the platter the pickup will be able to interpret the difference in motion as a coloration.
Any arm that lacks rigid coupling between the arm tube and the base of the amp has this problem. How profoundly is a different matter but you can know with certainty that coloration will be present.
Of course the better the tt is suspended/damped to prevent vibration helps reduce this issue, but modulation on the LP itself will result in the arm not being perfectly in locus above the groove as it should be.
Dear @alan60 : First than all I never posted that you are stupid.
Second was you who posted that I have to have " open mind " and when I read your post decided that maybe and due that you posted " open mind " then you are that way.
After your post I decided to gave you a really wider explanation starting from the LP recording proccess and the play proccess. Now that I re-read it was really wide.
Follows my post that’s not about only theories but facts/clear evidence of what I posted before in other posts about to my surprise your direct answer was and is:
"" sorry but I am not interested in nor do I want to understand all the theories. All that interests me is the music and how it sounds to my ears. ""
Obviously rigth there did not appeared your touted " open mind ".
This is my last post to you ( period ) but do it a favor and please read again that post. No pun intented for any gentleman:
"""
I’m answering you and will try to help you a little to understand the whole TAE main subject in this VIV underhung tonearm.
First you as any one elsedo not needs to know the alignment equations and its meaning or from where those equations came. The main subject it’s not about " open mind " and certainly not about subjectivity alone. The whole main subject is full of objectivity to understand how the cartridge stylus tip rides the LP groove modulations with been main target to pick-up 100% of the recording information ( it’s no way with an analog cartridge/transducer to pick up 100%. ).
To understand all those first we have to understand in which " form/way " comes the groove LP modulations and for that we have to go to the recording proccess and inside it go to yhe cutting machine where the cutter head cuts the recording modulations in full tangential angle. From here and after 1-3 steps comes the LP you have in your hand.
What need we to pick up " 100% " of the groove modulations in the LP and where those groove modulations where cutted in tangential angle/way?
Easy: we need that the cartridge stylus tip rides those LP groove modulations in exactly the same way the cutter head did it and this is in : tangential way and from here came the LT tonearms that does not needs any offset andgle due that the cartridge stylus tip mounted in that kind/shape of tonearm is tangential one. In principle this is the best way to read th LP groove modulations: tangential way where does not exist TAE, well exist but is 0°.
In all pivoted tonearms, no matters what but the pivoted LT designs, the cartridge stylus tip can’t read/ride/track way due that been mounted in a pivoted tonearm always exist a deviation of that ideal 0° TAE.
Then what’s the best we can do to minimize to put at minimum all over the LP modulated surface and at the same time puts the developed distortions for that TAE ( tracking/tracing error ) to pick-up all the signal information that can stays nearer to what a tangential tonearm/cartridge can pick-up and nearer to the recording?
Every one has their own targets mine is to pick-up all TRUER information from those LP grooves with minimum developed distotions.
To achieve those we must ( there is no other alternative, a least for now. ) try to align the cartridge mounted in the pivoted tonearm with the minimum off-set angle ( 0°, idealy ) that permit to pick-up maximum TRUE grooves information at minimum developed tracing distortion.
What is nearest to 0°: 1° or 10°? ovbiously that 1° that puts me nearer to what in true is in the recording when 10° puts me not only away from the recording but at that angle or near that angle the pick up information is " untruer ". Here I’m not talking if we like what we listen/hear or not but I’m talking of what really happens down there.
Things are that in 1938 a gentleman Proff. Lófgren ( latter on other researchers/engineers. ) found out the solution to all those I posted here and his calculations ( that you do not needs to understand or to be a mathematrics guy. ) was and is the Standard in the analog industry and is knowed as Löfgren alignment where you only needs the rigth protractor to fix the off-set angle and overhang solution/solved by that Löfgren tonearm/cartridge alignment.
Normally and due that that kind of alignment solution have two null points normally in tonearms of over 10" ( maybe even lower EL ) the tracking error due to the off-set angle is mantained at around 1° +,- 0.3° 90% of the time.
That’s the way to start TRUER to the recording.
VIV comes with no off-set angle and with a TAE of around 10° and due that only exist one null point the TAE 90% of the time is truly nearr to those 10° and this means that the angle of the cartridge stylus tip is way off in the VIV tonearm and is if off how can pick up TRUER information from the groove modulations? just can’t do it.
The Löfgren Industry Standar is the way to go.
I know that you and other VIV owners are really happy and I’m not against you. What I’m telling you is try to understand of what you are listeing that’s really different of what the gentlemans that use Löfgren are listening.
Yes, our hobby is about MUSIC enjoyment but exist a quality gradation for that enjoyment and I know that @mijostyn as me likes to have that MUSIC enjoyment inside the higher quality gradation we/he can. """
I posted in this thread twice and many times in other threads: we need try to have and equilibrium between objectivity and subjectivity. Stay only in one of those extremes is just " wrong " and makes no sense to me. Again, no pun intented.
The problem with the 'mechanical engineering' view is when you define a "goal" or a "standard" then it can easily be seen if that goal is met and an unassailable judgement made. No consideration is given to the absolute magnitude or the underlying importance of the goal to begin with. As Lew pointed out above....if vanishingly low distortion is set as the goal then the system with the lowest distortion must always be best.
modulation on the LP itself will result in the arm not being perfectly in locus above the groove as it should be
what happens when the modulation is so extreme that it is actually considered mistracking? Is it at all possible that not being 100% rigidly coupled could cause the recovery from mistracking to be more benign? Now consider that mistracking is not an all or nothing type of proposition and is constantly happening and I seriously have to question the importance of the rigid coupling anyone demands. Everyone is allowed their choice of compromise and the choices by Viv Labs and the supporting anecdotal information is really interesting to me. Productive discussion about the factors involved is helpful to all and it seems at least plausible to me that the lack of rock solid coupling and anti-skate could make say 5° of tracking error on the Viv Labs more sonically benign than a lesser amount of TAE on a 'traditional arm'. One other thing that strikes me as odd in this all is that if TAE is truly the sole arbiter then why do the shorter underhung arms seem to be preferred?
@mijostyn you have stated," I am not your casual audiophile ", whatever that means to you as a means of separating yourself from other audiophiles.
Also you state " a person who is very interested in and enthusiastic about equipment for playing recorded sound, and its quality: as your interpretation of what is an audiophile or more accurately your selecting wording to suit your only being able to see equipment as the key to experiencing the enjoyment of a musical encounter.
The bottom line is that I have no counter for that, these are your unique perspectives and the route you have chosen.
I myself have come to a place where there are exacting standards, where there is a glaringly obvious difference, is that I don't see these standards as required to enjoy a musical encounter, and certainly will not tell another their selections of equipment is trash and not worthwhile.
There is not one reference to equipment in this thread that will be a failure at creating a musical encounter that can be enjoyed. The thread is filled description to support this. I don't doubt anything based on user experience that is being reported on.
As said I like the reports so much that the idea of experiencing an underhung Geometry Appeals and is being discussed as a future occurrence.
The OP does not seem to be steered away from the idea either, the investigation of how to purchase is intensifying.
It looks like in this thread the snobbery expressed by the few that are in cahoots is the most non-influencing.
I suppose the thread could take on a new direction, as there are already a host of thoughts expressed about where there are merits to be had using a rigid coupling and what appears to be different takes on a coupling, to the point design is claimed to be non-rigid.
Does a Tonearm Wand/Pivot suspended on a thread/braid, perform better as a rigid coupling than a Tonearm Wand/Pivot supported with a oil flotation.
I recollect quite clearly rejecting other designs and following the Gimbal Tonearm design many years past, after having demonstrations over a period of time of most Tonearm designs.
Out of curiosity, it would be good to be able asses some of the thoughts that can be presented on this subject, as I made my choice subjectively on the preferred SQ, and not on the mechanical differences to be found in the designs.
The problem with the ’mechanical engineering’ view is when you define a "goal" or a "standard" then it can easily be seen if that goal is met and an unassailable judgement made. No consideration is given to the absolute magnitude or the underlying importance of the goal to begin with. As Lew pointed out above....if vanishingly low distortion is set as the goal then the system with the lowest distortion must always be best.
Regarding the distortion comment (since I can’t seem to just let that lay there...), it matters what kind of distortion it is. This is part of why the measurements are important- some kinds of distortions are unpleasent and other kinds are innocuous to the ear. I’ve talked probably too much about this elsewhere so won’t go into it more than that.
Regarding your comment about ’no consideration is given...’ as far as I can make out this simply isn’t true. What is true is we have a lot of designers that lack education that would be useful in their field. Lacking that they rely on stories to get around the elephant in the room. Human nature being what it is, often we can be convinced to believe those stories too.
what happens when the modulation is so extreme that it is actually considered mistracking? Is it at all possible that not being 100% rigidly coupled could cause the recovery from mistracking to be more benign? Now consider that mistracking is not an all or nothing type of proposition and is constantly happening and I seriously have to question the importance of the rigid coupling anyone demands. Everyone is allowed their choice of compromise and the choices by Viv Labs and the supporting anecdotal information is really interesting to me. Productive discussion about the factors involved is helpful to all and it seems at least plausible to me that the lack of rock solid coupling and anti-skate could make say 5° of tracking error on the Viv Labs more sonically benign than a lesser amount of TAE on a ’traditional arm’. One other thing that strikes me as odd in this all is that if TAE is truly the sole arbiter then why do the shorter underhung arms seem to be preferred?
Having run an LP mastering studio I can tell you that the limitation of modulation in the groove and the most of the distortion of the LP are all in the playback side rather than record. This places the performance (or lack thereof) almost entirely in the hands of the end user.
Mastering engineers know this, and so they really don’t put so much modulation in the groove as to cause a reasonable pickup to mistrack (we used an old SL1200 with a Grado Gold for our ’reasonable pickup’; if it could track the cuts we were making we knew we were in good shape). That’s a pretty old lesson, going way back to the Living Stereo era, when RCA cut the original Pines of Rome that tended to knock the rather primitive pickups of the time right out of the groove. Put simply, what you propose in your first question isn’t a thing.
If the coupling isn’t there as I have talked about, one of the results is more mistracking. IOW it works opposite of what you propose. This is simply because the arm is putting more energy into the cantilever.
Most audiophiles I know really want to get as close to the musical event as they can. The idea that the rig is designed to not do that is anathema. At any rate if the system has the rigid coupling (and deadness) as I wrote about, one thing that is instantly audible is how much better the bass is, which, if compared to CDs or RtR tape of the same recording, will be shown to be every bit as good, much to the chagrin of both camps’ advocates. But its more than that, with the rigidity also comes a more transparent midrange and smoother highs (particularly at volume), since its less susceptible to airborne vibration. This is one of those things that is not just easy to measure; its also easy to hear.
Regarding your last question, how do you know that underhung arms are actually preferred? Do you know of a poll regarding such??
@atmasphereI do like this description, it does somehow resonate with thoughts I have been having, as a result of having experiences of the use of a Tonearm and Platter Spindle Bearing that are modified and have the Tightest of Tolerances put in place for the machining, as well as other measures to create a friction free function.
Add this to a extremely speed stable TT, as a result of modification, it has brought me to the point where there perception is that something is present during the replay that is not usually detected, the overall replay has become a betterment to other experienced methods.
I am of the assumption at present the mechanical weakness now being incurred within the system is the Cartridge, as the assembly is not of a mechanical design to offer the best match to the TT>Tonearm.
I have attempted to resolve this by having a Ortofon Brand Cartridge rebuilt by a Technician using TOTR Ortofon Cartridge Internal Parts and produced to above factory spec' finish, by a Technician who has freelanced to Ortofon, and was instrumental in the development of the Windfeld PW.
With such tolerances engineered for the Tonearm and TT's function, and the attempt made to have a Bespoke Cartridge produced, that was 'hopefully once' a match in mechanical function. In relation to 'hopefully once', I am also of the assumption, as a result of wear and tear/collected contamination, the Cart' will be the first to yield its mechanical properties to the point of creating a lesser performance.
The centering of the hole formed in the LP to the groove centre, if not centred to within a specific dimension, will I assume, also be detectable as having an impact on the SQ being produced.
I do believe the TT's Platter Spindle Modification addresses a substantial proportion of a eccentric rotation, especially when considering the Platter Run Off is in the low microns when measured.
It would be nice to have all LP's play at a dimension of eccentric rotation inaccuracy of 0.1mm or less, but the time required to create this. Is in my view going to equate to a lot of faffing around. I will accept the avoidance of this as a 'vice, in relation to caring about all parameters required to extract every morsel of accurate modulation tracking during a Vinyl Replay.
As always the above is about equipment/tools that are required to have a mechanical/electrical function to enable a replay of recorded music.
It has nothing to do with enjoyment being experienced from a musical encounter. This is achievable though a variety of methods, of which one method or a selection of methods will prove successful.
Equipment is a tool and the more one learns about the merits of a particular design and the more that is known about the way a design has been produced, the more reassured one is that when using certain items for a LP replay, that there is thought gone into assembling the important ancillaries to be used. The knowing will be beneficial to the end user, offering confidence in their choices made, to enable the replay to be carried out with an accuracy put in place for the sound storage mediums replay requirement.
@alan60, It doesn't which is why I own a Schroder CB. Mr Schroder would argue that the string is pulled so tight by the neodymium magnets that it is essentially rigid. Anti skate is applied by twisting the string. The arm is also naturally dampened by the tension on the string. It is a great example of Mr Schroder's lateral thinking but not my cup of tea. On the other hand His LT model is a brilliant design and I will own one when I have a table I like that it will fit on. The CB, IMHO is as good as a pivoted offset arm gets. It ticks off every single important design feature. The only other arms that do this are the SME V, the Reed 2G, the Kuzma 4 Point, Origin live and the TriPlanar. There may be a few I am not aware of.
@lewm, You have to be kidding me Lew. After all I have said about measurement microphones, digital signal processing, and crazy microscopes? I measure everything that affects the performance of my system. If you don't you are out to sea without a compass.
@pindac, you build your own equipment, any of it? You measure the performance of your system with anything other than your ears? You been doing this since you were 4 years old. You spend 10 years installing very expensive systems in the homes of rich people to pay your way through medical school? You sir are a totally subjective nightmare.
@rauliruegas1++ Ditto. The key it is to maintain objectivity as far as you can and save the subjectivity for areas you can not measure or control. The Tonearm is not one of these areas. The Speaker/Room is by far the most difficult issue and subjectivity has to creep in. Here there are issues of taste and preference that go beyond measurement. It is still important to measure and understand everything you can.
@wallytools, JR, your opinion is always welcome here. Nobody is shooting at anybody and heated discussions are not a bad thing. Sometimes you have to be very specific to get the message across. There are always a few...total subjectivists around. The Viv arm is a great example of them in operation. They are entitled to ruin their own systems. But, others read these posts and I hate to see them swayed by alchemy. Yours is a voice of reason and should be heard especially when it comes to tonearms and cartridges.
@mijostynI take it you have a very short recollection, as I know you read all my posts.
I don't build anything, apart from a CDT and a few stored Cartridges, every device in use is Bespoke produced, either built from scratch or a available product undergone Substantial Modification, such as the Tonearm, Cart', Phonostage, Pre-Amp in the Making, Power Amps, Speakers.
I have fortunately never been too fixated on one system only and have as a result, of being social in the world of HiFi in my Country been demonstrated numerous devices used for analogue replays.
Like all, I arrive at a demonstration as an individual intending on using my ears, to assess the impact the set up can have on myself. When an impression is seen as valuable, the learning about the factors present that are contributors are usually encouraged to be openly discussed. Topics such a room conditioning, equipment and equipment matching, cabling, modifications or bespoke designs are the subject under discussion.
Discoveries are made that can not be made hiding away in a room, with a head full of fanciful/delusional ideas in relation to HiFi equipment. Relying on a few tools to substantiate the findings with only one interpretation of the data produced, if produced accurately at all, does not cut it for me, in relation to you.
I have already in this Thread seen your very biased and selective description of what is a audiophile, to prove your point.
As said, lets see where the snobbery displayed by the few in cahoots goes.
Mijo, do you also have an audio signal generator, a distortion analyzer, a high end oscilloscope, test LPs for IM and HD produced by cartridges, and etc., and is every claim you make here substantiated by hard data using valid controls? If so, I apologize.
The stuff you mentioned is mostly to allow control on the input side. You didn’t mention how you might collect and use data on the output side. Not that there’s anything wrong with using your ears.
Agree 100% with you on the distortion which is why i tried to make a parallel with TAE. I find it highly unlikely that every tonearm cartridge combo will respond to TAE in the same manner and there is more to it than simply slapping a number on it and calling it equal. I think we can all agree that the lower the TAE the better but If we accept the belief that the lowest TAE is best then a 12" arm must better a 9" arm which is a statement that will draw lots of ire here. Going further a linear tracker would be better yet. With the new 9" sapphire arm, Kuzma counters this by saying arm rigidity is more important than TAE much in the way Viv labs asserts Skating forces dominate the situation. I see nothing technically inconsistent in any of the Viv labs assertions to merit calling them "stories" or deceptive in any way but it seems some here feel differently.
WRT cutting level and mistracking, it seems there is not a good definition of what mistracking actually is. My take is any movement in a direction not cut on the record is mistracking which means it is constant occurrence from numerous causes. I think the concept of "If it makes it across track 4 on record X it is a great tracker" is a far to simplistic all or nothing approach. The devil is in the details and lots of things come into play here and exploring the details is the best we can do.
If the coupling isn’t there as I have talked about, one of the results is more mistracking. IOW it works opposite of what you propose. This is simply because the arm is putting more energy into the cantilever.
Like distortion and TAE, mistracking cannot be a one size fits all proposition and making it thus is going in the wrong direction. What if it is the type of mistracking is what matters? I have found that comparing a conical to an advanced profile for a given angular error nets interesting results. For angles in the ±1° range the advanced profile is substantially better but once outside that range the conical becomes the preferred choice. IOW 5°≠5°
Regarding your last question, how do you know that underhung arms are actually preferred? Do you know of a poll regarding such??
Didn't mean to suggest that. I simply noted that amongst the specific subset of Viv Labs arms, the 9" arm seems preferred to the longer versions which is odd if TAE is the true metric of quality some make it. I do want to be clear that with my current setup (traditional offset overhung rigid bearing arm + advanced profile stylus), I find more than 1° TAE problematic but by comparison the same profile (microrisdge) on the underhung Schröder reference reminds me nothing of what I would expect hear from a similar error on a traditional arm. This simply tells me that there must be more to this than simply looking at the TAE as a single factor and explains my interest in this thread. Do I ultimately expect to become an underhung fanboy??? No... but that doesn't mean there isn't something to be learned from those who like it ~17mm short :-)
Dear @atmasphere : "" one thing that is instantly audible is how much better the bass is, which, if compared to CDs or RtR tape of the same recording, .......... But its more than that, with the rigidity also comes a more transparent midrange and smoother highs ...... """
I agree and I could add something that I posted several times in different forums:
as better the the bass range as better the other ttwo main ranges: mid-range and high frequency bacause the bass and its harmonics now are " clean " and impedes that the " high dust " before puts alot of dirt in the other frequency ranges. Tonearm rigidity is out of question.
A good bass home system management makes per se not only that THD/IMD goes lower but the overall quality reproduced sound/MUSIC been improved by a wide margin and now the system listening sessions really shines as never before. MUSIC in home systems " belongs "/live in the bass range. That’s too why subs is a strictly necessity in any home system.
@intactaudio : "" by comparison the same profile (microrisdge) on the underhung Schröder reference reminds me nothing of what I would expect hear from a similar error on a traditional arm. This simply tells me that there must be more to this than simply looking at the TAE as a single factor.....""
and if you make the same test with other 4-5 different tonearms you will listen different quality levels. Of course TAE is not the single factor for that. Almost any one know that exist several other cartridge/parameters that affects directly or inderectly the cartridge/tonearm combination developed listened distortions levels.
I think the " simplistic " is you or have a misunderstood about.
About mistracking @atmasphere is rigth: it belongs to the play proccess and exist several reasons why that could happens: way out resonance frequency between cartridge/tonearm combination ideal resonance frequency range, vibrations generated external/internally in the room/system ( that's why accurated bass range is a must to have as tonearm rigidity. ), even in LT tonearm designs exist " constant " mistracking " because at stylus tip ride levels that stylus tip has micro/tiny " jumps " following the LP groove modulations, I think that no one is totally sure if the LP off-center and its micro-waves could affects stylus tip tracking, exist some recordings where almost all tonearm/combinations mistracking due to the LP high velocity/amplitude recorded grooves as: original Telarc 1812, at least 2 tracks of original RR 45rpm Dafos LP, M&K D2D Bachs scores and other LPs like these ones Crytal Clear D2D organ scores , etc, etc., mistakes by the system owner in the cartridge/tonearm alignment and VTF parameter and the like, etc, etc.
Dave, when you consider the fact that the Viv is supposed to be underhung by 17 mm, as you point out, I think one very inhibiting factor about buying the longer versions is that 99% of plinths will not accommodate such a long tonearm that in addition has to be underhung by 17 mm. Your mounting board would be in the next room. The base of a 14 inch Viv, which I believe is available, would be nearly 15 inches away from the spindle. It would be difficult to achieve rigid coupling in that situation.
@lewm, Never second guess a tool collector. The only thing I am lacking are the LPs. Go to Channel D's web site and check out Mac the Scope and Waavebox.
I use a calibrated microphone and an audio analytic program to measure the output of the system on top of the measurements the preamp processor makes. Most of my testing is on the output of the system. It seems your memory is just as bad as mine. Old age sucks.
@intactaudio, All these parameters count at some level and every type of distortion has a range of volume. At some low level the distortion becomes inaudible. The key is to minimize all parameters to the point where each one is inaudible which requires a balanced design with the appropriate compromises. To go all the way with any one parameter at the expense of the others is a huge mistake. After the 9" offset, pivoted arm the arms that do the best job of this are the Schroder LT and the Reed 5A and 5T. A carriage driven straight line tracker like the Dereneville DTT-05 could be a contester if it were not for the stupid price.
I am neither polite or politically correct. The Viv arm is a pitifully sad design for a number of reasons. The fact that it can sound OK speaks only to the mediocracy of some systems and the inexperience of some listeners.
After a discussion with one of my Tonearm Designer friends, it has ben agreed that on a Tonearm being produced to enable a ease to experience Wires for the Signal Path against a Tonearm with a permanent wire configuration, using the Wire of choice.
There is now to be a Underhung Geometry produced for a demonstration on the Tonearm with the option to use easily exchangeable wires.
One thing this Tonearm will offer as well, is that the Styli, when in contact with the LP Groove is positioned on the same plane as the Vertical Pivot Axis.
The lessening of friction resulting from the above above Styli/Pivot Geometry, along with the tolerances produced for the Tonearms Bearings and extremely low friction present during operation, is going to supply a operational environment for the Cart' that is difficult to surpass.
The TT to be used has not undergone the Platter Bearing Modification that my own one has, as a result, a extra run off will most likely be present with this bearing in use. There is a plan for a New Bearing design for this TT, but to have the most modern methods used, a new stator mounting bowl is needed to be produced, this is a later design to be developed.
The Speed Control on the TT to be used for the trials is modified and functions as my own TT does.
There is a possibility that I might take my TT out of storage and put it to use on the Panzerholz Plinth being used to mount the Two Tonearms. This assembly will be mounted in a manner to create the control conditions that iron out unwanted influences during the assessments.
Note: As with what is assumed is the content of 99% percent of assessments discussed by numerous contributors anywhere, all follow up discussion will be a subjective evaluation and the impressions made will be described.
It wouldn't be the first time logistics determined merit in audio. Everyone is allowed their preconceived ideas of what constitutes a good design. Universally extrapolating those beliefs and decrying anything that does not align with ones 'ideal du jour' serves little purpose. This is just another case of how much better my half empty cup of Evian is than your half full cup of tap water. If we don't accept the possibility that something outside our realm of experience might be better the chances of actually moving forward and learning are slim.
@intactaudio" If we don't accept the possibility that something outside our realm of experience might be better the chances of actually moving forward and learning are slim ".
I have learnt over the years the value of this statement, I have never sat tight in a belief, I have always embraced what others are doing and made the time to experience it in use, when ever possible.
As stated by myself recently, I do feel I was wed to the SME IV for a longer period than was ideal, and could have experienced other Tonearms as a Tonearm of interest, as part of the experience/journey with the IV. When this commitment to the arm eventually faded, I bought in a similar arm, and it was the similarity between both arms, that started the quest to discover a arm that was discernably a betterment.
Through travelling and meeting, I discovered an arm design that stood head and shoulders above other items present on the day, on a follow up inquiry and comparing to an owned arm, the change in direction was a no brainer.
As a result of the willingness to experience what others are doing, I have for one been instrumental in creating a social structure with like minded enthusiasts, this has now got friendships born from my willingness to travel and meet with like-minded individuals going back approx' 28 years.
Over the years, I have built on this and have been demonstrated many devices and designs put to use in systems belonging to others, as well as being loaned items to experience in my own system. It can be seen in plenty of my posts made by myself, I readily loan devices to be used in systems belonging to others.
As a result of this, I have today in use in my system, designs produced by individuals I have met as a result of my willingness to travel and meet, I am not a Branded Equipment user, nearly all devices are Bespoke Built or a substantially modified Brands Model.
I have been fortunate, and have been able to shape a system and sound that for my own purposes is totally satisfying, and one that when the system is assembled and up and running, there are invites immediately taken up to come around and listen to some old favorite tracks along with newly acquired ones.
More recently this has expanded to CD and not just Vinyl replays, the Perfect Wave Audio CDT, is the only non-modified Branded device used in the system.
This thread has also gave me a few memory jog's, it has pushed myself to recollect some of the equipment specifically singled out for demonstrations during the late 80's / early 90's.
It has also helped me remember the times when I would take individuals out to sophisticated dealerships in the 80/90's and introduced them to the aspire to Vinyl Set Ups, from the likes of Roksan, Michell, Rega and Linn and I am sure some others as well.
I also recollect getting a group of like-minded friends to accompany myself to a London Hotel where Ivor Tiefunbrun was hosting a Seminar on Turntable Design and obviously relating the technical jargon to Linn Philosophies.
It was around this time as well, I went out of my way to experience the EAR Design where a Quad ESL 57 was directly coupled to Valve Amp Power Supply. The influence that TPV has had, has been permanent, I probably got my first 'must have' obsession, which produced in the late 90's had a Commissioned Bespoke Built Power Amp design specifically to drive Quad 57's.
I will claim these have been my very early endeavours in enjoying the set ups of others without too much of a personal interest attached, just present for the convivial side and the gaining of experiences.
I do recall there was intelligence to be found around vinyl that was a stimulus, very interesting individuals who were toying with extracting the betterment from the available TT's.
In the latter end of the 90's, I abandoned the use of Belt Drives and went down the route of the Idler Drive, this is where I first encountered engineering practices from adept machinists and had a Bearing Upgrade produced from a cutting edge service from the day. The road led on to being interested in mechanical interfaces and the tolerance constraints that could be worked with, I learnt a lot.
It all changed to a new direction and excitement, when introduced to modern materials and designs that are able to work with such materials in use, that the knowing about new options leap frogged forward. There are materials in use today, that are not mainstream, probably even not spoken of publicly, as the use of them can have official secrets documents signed onto by those in the know. Being informed of such materials in private conversation and the other substances used to enable the optimised performance has been quite an experience of learning.
To have been demonstrated the work undertaken and immediately recognising how discernable the end products are in use, has been a special experience and almost unique, not encountered by many.
Today, I do believe I am in contact/friendship with individuals adept in their skills. I am certainly experiencing the work created by these individuals, that are undertaken where the materials used, is enabling engineering dimensions to be produced to the tightest of tolerances and able to maintain a friction free operation for a critical interface in a Tonearm and TT's Platter Bearing.
Nearly 30 years in and the inquisitiveness remains strong, and the results being experienced are today the ones superseding the previous indelible memories where a very good impression has been made.
I am not apologetic in any way for my not being a 'hands on type', when it comes to micro-engineering and electronics, I am fortunate to share the company of those that know better.
Producing Structures is where I excel, buffoon fingers are tolerated better in that environment.
@intactaudio : " If we don't accept the possibility that something outside our realm of experience might be better the chances of actually moving forward and learning are slim....""
The thread is about VIV tonearm and till now you posted no evidences/facts that could be the foundation of your statement.
Where are those evidences/facts/measurements?
Btw, even dirty stylus tip/LP grooves could cause mistracking and over 500 playing hour the stylus tip will shows an unevenly wear that could increment the normal mistracking.
Dave, did you really intentionally direct that last post to me? So far as I know we are on the same side. And I fully agree with your sentiments about not being afraid to try new things. Until you joined the fray, I was the only one defending the possibility that the Viv tonearm might be any good, outside of all of those persons who own one and use it. All of those guys seem to like the tonearm. So what’s with the last post? I totally agree with your sentiments. My only point was that the reason perhaps not many purchase the very longest versions of the Viv tonearm may have more to do with fitting the tonearm to a turntable than zeal or lack of zeal for minimizing TAE.
the start of the response was to your point that many may use the 9" because it "fits" I'm with you on the scientific approach of observing behavior and then trying to explain it rather than using theory to dictate behavior.
When something fits the normal expected pattern of behavior all is well but in this case we have a fairly large break in that normal pattern of behavior when an arm with a nontraditional design establishes an observable pattern of people enjoying the results in spite of what most call an "obvious flaw" One camp here explains this by calling the manufacturer a charlatan and suggest the consumers are suckers who obviously have no clue about what constitutes good audio. They then proceed to parrot numbers and theories to support their opinions. The other camp here finds it interesting that he conflict exists and is intrigued to dig a bit deeper to see if there may be overlooked factors. If you pick any topic in audio a proper technical argument can be made for and against it but at the end of the day it is an established pattern of observed behavior that sets the direction everyone travels.
WRT cutting level and mistracking, it seems there is not a good definition of what mistracking actually is. My take is any movement in a direction not cut on the record is mistracking which means it is constant occurrence from numerous causes.
When mastering an LP, and then playing back a problematic cut, what any engineer is looking for is that the pickup will make it thru the cut without any breakup or sense of strain; IOW breezes through and wonders what the fuss is about.
But obviously the arm will have motion such that it will not always be directly above the cartridge as wished. Any offset is picked up by the cartridge as noise or coloration depending on the motion involved. To minimize that you simply have to do everything I previously described.
I suspect the longer arm, like any other longer arm, suffers the issue of greater mass. You may well need a cartridge of lower compliance. That issue alone (or cost...) is likely why the shorter arm is preferred.
Dear @intactaudio : " it is an established pattern of observed behavior that sets the direction everyone travels. "
Problem is that that is not happening yet and could never happens.
Even your " ovservation " of mistraking with only two sample tonearms means almost nothing, I already explained.
In this thread that " observation " issue came from subjectivity gentlemans and not because I say it, this their way of thinking:
" sorry but I am not interested in nor do I want to understand all the theories. All that interests me is the music and how it sounds to my ears. "
Do You think that an observer with good equilibrium objective/subjective can in any way trust on that even after " thousands of observations?, makes no sense at least to me.
The metric that needs to be discussed here is the lesser of the two evils which makes us wander into the land where ears become the ultimate arbiter. At that point individuals are allowed to have differing opinions and the vast majority here are respectful of others who have taken parallel paths.
Any offset is picked up by the cartridge as noise or coloration depending on the motion involved.
I see two possible situations here. Lets assume a 3° Zenith error at a given point on record. In the case of a traditional tonearm rigidly fixed in all but the lateral and vertical planes, the misalignment will cause a force in a direction that the tonearm is prevented from moving so it will need to be transferred to a direction that movement is possible which will come at some sonic penalty. Now consider the same situation with a tonearm that allows 'some' movement in a third direction. I'll agree that this will also add some sonic penalty as you describe but also see the possibility that it could be a much more benign penalty than in the first situation. Now take this a bit further to the extreme of a severely misaligned cartridge and we have the discussion at hand. The idea of mistracking reminds me of the mike tyson quote “Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.” Thinking you are going to have a setup that won't mistrack is akin to planning on getting into the ring and not getting hit.
I suspect the longer arm, like any other longer arm, suffers the issue of greater mass. You may well need a cartridge of lower compliance.
Oh boy.... there is another can of worms in audio that needs to be re-examined. I presume you are referring to the tonearm resonance. Everyone here should go ahead and add weight to the headshell to double the effective mass of their tonearm and see if their resonant frequency changes by the predicted factor of 1.4.
Do You think that an observer with good equilibrium objective/subjective can in any way trust on that even after " thousands of observations?, makes no sense at least to me.
Can you give me one "objective fact" in audio that is not firmly based on a solid foundation of subjective experiences?
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