If the Spec's say it does 0-60 in 4.5 Seconds and the best one can get in their attempts is 5.5 Seconds does the driving experience really become unsatisfactory, as testing undertaken by very special individuals in their field of expertise are not repeatable by mere mortals.
Enjoying the Ride is surely the Goal.
Yamaha still produce a underhung TA available today, there latest TT is adorned with it. The Company have stuck loyal to the Geometry for a long period of time.
The idea of comparing a Underhung Design using a conventional design arm, in comparison to the alternatives seen in the 'Viv' should produce a interesting to read assessment.
As for What's Best Forum, there are a few contributors on there with a vast experience and any one looking for an alternative viewpoint will not be selling themselves short having a look at the info on offer.
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In my assessment, there has been no 'Distortion' seen from nearly all commentators on their experiences with the 'Viv' in use.
I can say, I have been impressed by the commentary and have made my own inroads to experience something similar to a 'Viv' Geometry. There is no 'contempt prior to investigation' at my end.
There is quite obvious content from certain commentators, where the narrative is to 'Distort' / Re-shape the Commentary from others, who are claiming to have encountered very good experiences from using the 'Viv'.
It seems absolutely diabolical and futile that a few are to spend so much time suggesting that if one is not using a Geometry from a particular group of Mathematicians, the only outcome is an inferior experience.
Tonearm Geometries under discussion allow for the Styli to make contact with the Groove and the result is produced music from the entirety of the LP.
'Lo and Behold', there is music being produced and when the produced sonic heard, is being thoroughly enjoyed. For some, the produced sonic is preferred to other previous methods used for placing a Styli in a Groove.
What does stand out is that all commentators on experiencing the Viv' in use are experienced with the use of all Geometries being presented in this thread. Each knows how they have been influenced by the Sonic produced from the differing concepts.
The 'Viv' has become the preferred choice for some of its users.
What a Waste such an attitude is when it comes from notion,
' Only when my suggested math is being utilised, as I suggest it should, can then only the real enjoyment of listening to a LP replay be encountered and only then might I find it acceptable for what one is claiming'. What a load of utter twaddle.
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@alan60 I use a Tonearm design that as a end product is a not too common design encountered.
I have always sought out opportunities to experience devices in use, and have learnt over the years some devices are able to really impress.
Your very clearly made known liking for the the Viv Labs Tonearm, along with the the assessment, being it has proven for yourself, to be a more attractive arm in use that the ones you have mentioned, is quite a parallel with my own experience of a different Tonearm.
I have no longer any real intention to use the owned Tonearm Brands such as SME IV, or AudioMods Series Five.
Additionally after demonstrations, I know others who have departed from much more valuable Tonearms than the ones I have owned to give the priority place in the system to the same arm I am now using.
There are on occasions, a discovery made, that are requiring a ' Sat in Front Off' experience only, no amount of discussion (non experience) is able to show how the extremely positive impression is able to be made, and is able to impact on a person, changing with immediacy their long held views on what is right devices for themselves.
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@atmasphere Your Statement makes the claim,
" That rule is that there must be profound coupling between the surface of the platter and the mount of the cartridge. To this effect, there can be no slop in the platter bearings or arm bearings. In addition, the arm must be rigidly mounted to the plinth (and the plinth must be both dead and very rigid) such that any vibration that might occur at the platter will be in the same plane as that of the cartridge mount. "
In my view there are points made by yourself that are believed to having been addressed by many, but in a analysis of a variety of designs, there are to be discovered elements in the designs seen that veer away from this.
I have made it known in previous posts, I am a follower of a Design that is in place to offer a version of being a Rigidly Coupled Interface or as you have stated (no slop).
I have gone to the lengths of achieving this through having adopted various measures. Such measures have evolved over a period of time, where opportunities have been discovered to capitalise on the Philosophy.
Today, I work with a Hard System, (non yielding) not any soft materials unless the Cart's Damper is to be classed as a soft material in use.
The Plinth in use is produced from Panzerholz, the Chassis is mounted on the Plinth with a 0.1mm Tolerance for the fastenings. ( A design is very soon to be put to use where the TT's Chassis will removed and the P'holz Chassis will be the Plinth).
The Platter Bearing has been re-designed and new parts are used produced from a modern material, with clearance tolerances of 0.05mm on the machining of a Bush. There is another ream process required to complete the fitting of the Spindle.
With Lubricant in the Spindle /Bush Interface, the Run Off for the Platter when measured is seen in the very low microns and is extremely quiet in operation. There is a new design being produced, where it is expected that a Run Off showing 0.009mm and lower is able to be achieved, along with even further decreased noise being produced.
The Tonearm design has adopted the use of a different Modern Material, as used in the Bearing Housing, this material has proven to be very valuable for the design, and has enabled extremely tight tolerances (I can't say more on this).
The Spindle to Pillar Distance is set to a distance that is within 0.01 of the Manufacturers Dimension. The Tonearm is set into the Plinth (no arm board) with retaining fastenings centred to the same tolerances.
The producer assures these Tolerances survive Transit once set.
In relation to the Mechanical Interface, this is the best I am able to get access to, for the monies I am very comfortable spending. With what is already realised and the the upcoming Bearing Upgrade, it is not possible for me to imaging I will be needing more from a Mechanical Interface on a TT.
There is also work done to the Signal Path, that has been carried out so that there is possibly zero impedance on the function of the Tonearm due to the Internal Wiring configuration. A not so common seen Wire is in use as well, but that is a different subject.
I intend on adopting these principles to all the TT's I own and intend on interfacing with the Tonearm Design.
With the extremely low friction design for the Tonearm Function and Platter Bearing Function, the search becomes what other influences can add friction.
The Tonearm Designer is using the Ultra Fine Polished Styli as a measure to further benefit the mechanical interfaces produced on both Tonearm and Platter Bearings.
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Reading the Brochure Content. The Viv Labs wording seems to be Transparent when describing a error that is increased in its effect over some other arm designs
・NO OFFSET-ANGLE STRUCTURE
We believe that elbowed shaped arm with offset angle and overhang setting affect seriously to the sound quality because of side force fluctuation, which can never be canceled by anti-skating machanism.
So we dare to choose completely straight (i.e. NO OFFSET-ANGLE) structure.
You may ask “What about trucking error?” , and the answer is, “The trucking error is a little bigger, but the sound is much better.” You can hear no distortion even with 7” model.
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I have a history that has an experience of numerous Tonearms.
I do not recollect if such a Geometry used for the design of this Tonearm or a similar Geometry has been encountered.
Listening to the good user reports and the Arms the Viv Labs has Superseded as reported on, I am intrigued, and would very much like to be demonstrated this Tonearm Geometry in use.
The criticisms of the design for the Geometry are not enough to deter me from attempting to use two avenues to have the experience from a Tonearm that is very familiar.
I am aware a Titanium Wand Material has been in storage for a while at the producer of the Tonearm I use. As the Viv Lab Arm has a Straight Wand, I am already encouraging the designer of my Tonearm to look into producing a wand that will enable a experience of this Geometry.
I would prefer to have the experience created on a Tonearm I am very familiar with and the Tonearm mounted in a methodology that is closest to what I trust in as the ideal method.
The real Blocker I see, is that a Plinth may need to be modified to create the correct pivot > spindle spacing, the plinth material I class as ideal is rare in the UK and a modified Spindle Cut Out might cause and issue.
The second option is to introduce the other Tonearm Designer / Producer I am good friends with and seek their support.
This Tonearm Designer has built form scratch their Tonearm Design and is one I have been invited to receive demonstrations of on quite a few occasions during the R&D and working prototype stages.
It is my view that mechanically this Arm is optimised, I know the tolerances in use, and the performance is in my view parity or better that the best I have had experience of.
The next stage of development for this arm is agreed, which is to produce it to a high quality visual aesthetic and dedicate Two Arms to be used for the the Signal Path wiring trials with a selection of sourced wires
A Plinth is already produced to be used for A/B comparisons of the Arm, and is produced from my ideal Plinth Material. The design for the Plinth is a Two Arm design with a Tonearm Base Plate utilised that can accept 2 x 9" or 2 x 12" Tonearms.
I feel confident the Viv Labs Geometry or very similar can be accomplished on this plinth. I also feel if there is a good impression the other Plinth/Chassis can be adapted to receive this Geometry.
I am aware the method above is far from the Viv Labs mechanical design, but the Geometry selected is looking able to be transferred.
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@lewm It sounds a easier sell, when explaining the -17.5mm dimension as a guideline.
It won’t be the worse mistake I made with a Tonearm, when it comes to resting on laurels and believing enough is achieved, that one is today looking like the sitting on the usage of the SME IV for such a long period.
After a recent experience of being demonstrated the latest guise of the Tonearm I use with the Signal Wire of choice in the Wand, DIN> RCA, Phonostage Signal Path, Phonostage Power Chord, RCA>RCA, Speaker Wire.
Along with a New Speaker in use, I am lost for words, dumbfounded, and still remain scratching my head trying to work out, how the experience as been super impressive and standout over other encounters which yielded a impressive experience.
Looks like this Tonearm Designers work is now ’out of the bag’ beyond the UK.
The Tonearms have has now gone Global, there are users now in Mainland Europe, Australia and America, which one of three in the USA is with a user based in Washington.
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@mijostyn Ague your point and make all the analogies required to get your point across, I don't see it being heeded, iif a individual has their mind set on experiencing a device they will.
If such a experience has proven more satisfying through demonstration, than a design that has aligned itself to minimising a host of Mechanical and Geometry concerns as being presented within this thread, it is looking quite likely the most satisfying option is to become a priority pursuit. When looking at the Tonearms now being reported on, as less preferred, even superseded, by the Viv Lab Arm, it is going to take a lot more than futile Argument or fanciful Analogies to steer one to the course being proposed by yourself.
It looks like, from my perspective a enjoyment has been discovered and is one worthy of maintaining, which pretty much suggests the entertainment factor of listening to recorded music is being met. Who has a goal that does not include that?
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@alan60 I like yourself don't do equations, I have as a result of the route chosen to produce my HiFi System, been able to meet with a few very adept Electronic Engineers and Mechanical Engineers, and as a result of the relationships developed, have immediate access and support to be guided by these Professional Individuals, who have done much work with equations and designing/building as daily practices throughout their careers.
Additionally, I have a selection Book Marked 'go to' Web Sites, where the necessary info' about analogue replay requirements can be found. There is a substantial amount of info' at hand. I don't seem to have any issues with understanding these, even if infrequently visited, I can also run a few things over with the more learned than myself when needed.
It really is not difficult today for an individual to present themselves as a Expert, when the Calculators to do needed equations are readily available to all.
There are those who create math and those that interpret the math created, neither are able to find perfection, but usually the one who creates the math, has a better knowledge of why the math is as it is, maybe like the Viv Lab Designer.
The types create/interpret, are worlds apart, I have learned to stick close to those who do the math and are walking the walk in line with their creative thinking, experience has proven, these types are a pleasure to know.
I keep well away from the types that are talking the talk, when it comes to advice, these types, are usually flimsy and not well rooted, the story/stories presented has many twists and turns, as the talk is attempted to be proved/disproved.
I have spent time reading the Posts from past years on subjects of interest from a selection of the regular contributors to the Audiogon Analog Forum, and have no doubts that ideas and theories are formed in shifting sand, that reshape over time.
The good reports and positive Vibe on offer from the Viv Lab Arm users reporting on their 'experiences' due to having a 'sat in front of' encounter, has got my curiosity, hence my thoughts leaning toward creating a quite affordable underhung design that can be mounted on a Particular TT in mind, and used as a A/B comparison to a Overhung design using two Cart's of the same Brand and Model with very similar usage life.
This is not too strange as the same TT>Plinth>Cart's is put in place to A/B compare Branded Tonearms against the Tonearm Design I am now using and the Built from Scratch Tonearm. A very open mind will be present and evaluations will be on the qualities discovered to be on offer, not the Design or Geometry Shortcomings, which can be found in most set ups, I have chosen 'Stevenson A' as my poison.
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When the equipment is the obsession, and not just a Tool to be used as a means to an end.
The type of personality that encloses itself in, and can't see the end, but only the tools, and technicalities. This type in my experiences with them, has a dysfunction. The obsessing over Microns and Seconds and Radians and what is at a loss if not present in a set up is futile.
Most of what is required, is already put in place and readily available to be utilised with considerable ease.
Tonearm Set Up Dimensions are Found on a Template - The Cartridge Groove Modulation Tracing Geometry is to be found on a Protractor.
There are plenty of solutions to produce accurate speed control.
There is no shortage of ancillaries to get a Tracking Weight and Tracking Angle set in place.
The Math behind it does not matter, as there are clever types who made it, that the required tasks were simplified, being easily achieved by most with a little practice and tuition. Produced designs that are readily available for the above tools, do make life uncomplicated. It is not a Black Art, where caution is needed.
From a certain point of observing, the pursuit of more accuracy than readily available becomes burdening. Specialised Methods with Specialised Equipment is required, and the end product produced, is one that is, as a end product, in a constant state of deterioration, where it is extremely difficult to be continuously reassured the controls put in place are maintained. Even a simple shift in temperature could change the work being meticulously measured to perform a function.
I am quite sure, there are go to devices produced using general production methods that can not be produced with a consistency, where the parts assembled are all equal. Tolerances for a Part will vary.
It is difficult to see how variances of a Tolerance will receive any further benefits from going above and beyond the most regularly used methodologies to create interfaces and a functioning environment.
The costs associated with producing the tightest of tolerances and having a friction free environment is an extremely expensive endeavour. The Works required to create the tolerances and lowest coefficients of friction without a Lubricant used, is certainly one that is a 'Hands On', Labour Intensive Operation, which will be a design produced from the most skilled hands.
Take a Branded Product, if there was a product that could adopt a design that has a extremely tight tolerance and the Skill Set was in house to produce the extremely tolerance at interfaces, it would be a service that provided a end product that is most likely as the minimum 25% increase in costs, even getting onto 50% above a typical charge. If the service is outsourced the associated costs will certainly come in close to a 50%+ uplift in retail value. Start adding these costs to devices in the $4000 - $15000 price ranges seen at present, and a Customer Base will be quickly lost.
I have a hand honed Bearing assembly in my Tonearm, which is produced to the tightest of Tolerances and is friction free, the Platter Spindle Bearing is also modified and produced to work with the Tonearm Bearing, for the most valuable of interfaces.
Along with the above Two Specially produced conditions, the Speed Control of the TT is also a much improved design.
The weak link is when the Cart' is added. The Cart' is not produced with the tolerances needed for the assembly, that will enable the other devices to completely excel.
The usual outcome is that the Cart' being used are showing traits, not usually detected, and recognised as a betterment, which is attributed as a result of the tolerances produced for other parts used in the environment of operation.
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Enjoyment of Music is enjoyment of Sound made by Humans.
Sound made by Humans is present as a form of entertainment, the sole purpose being to function as a stimulus for the bodies auditory perception and the ability to be able to hear sound, is able to create a certain type of stimulus within an individual.
It can be safely said, that not all sound produced for entertainment purposes arouses equal stimulus in all individuals.
It can be safely said, that when a sound that is produced for the purposes of entertainment is discovered by an individual and proves to be to their taste and preferences, the enjoyment being experienced is most likely to be of a equal measure to what others are experiencing in relation to their chosen and preferred sound being produced.
It does not matter what is attached to the Stimulus, be it distortion or non-distortion, a Mother listening to a child play a instrument after a short period of learning, will convince herself the music is wonderful. When listening to sound for the purpose of entertainment, there is no right or wrong, the music is either and attraction or not.
What ever music type, that has created attraction and proved to be entertaining and is wanted to be maintained, is all that matters.
To try and attach more to it is unnecessary, to suggest a particular method is needed to experience the music is not really going to win too much favour.
To suggest a Tool used to replay recorded music can only offer the best form of entertainment, if it is produced to function within a certain parameter is silliness.
To suggest that a Tool used that is not functioning to within a certain parameters, is not able to be entertaining and should be discarded and not maintained is a crazy notion.
Most Tools designed are very successful, and the role of the Tool is proven adequately fit for purpose. Recorded Music is successfully replayed as the result.
Spend as much time as one wants arguing the toss with others about decisions made. It wont change anything, especially when the made decision has proved to put an emphasis on the quality of entertainment being created, being for the better.
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When using the Term 'Audiophile', I relate to it as a individual who expresses a deep rooted interest in hearing music.
I would even accept that a Audiophile has a deep rooted interest in equipment to replay recorded music, either from a Analogue Source, such as Tape or Vinyl or a Digital Source, such as CD, File or Streamed Data.
I do not accept that a 'Audiophile' interested in Vinyl Replay is only defined as a 'phile' if the obsession of concerning themselves about microns, seconds, or Radians in relation to the equipment being used is their fundamental concern.
This as a stance is elitist and is suggesting only certain individuals can join the club, if they have the means to buy into the criteria.
I will sticker with my membership of the Club that has a broader criteria recognised, that identifies one as a member.
As said I have equipment bespoke produced for replaying the Vinyl LP, which has as part of the intended design, created the tightest of tolerances and remains friction free as part of the function. Even with this equipment at hand, and certainly the tolerances created are not found in all equipment, I will not consider myself above another. I will consider myself fortunate to be able to experience such a feat of micro-engineering, used in conjunction with a Cartridge.
As said the Cart' is the weak link, it is not produced to match the exactness of the modifications in place for the Tonearms and Platter Bearings Engineering.
I'll happily stick around here see where the snobbery being presented by a few contributors ends up.
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@mijostyn has stated that along with @clearthinker, they both are aligned in their thoughts on the following, " we are all subject to modifiers based on mood " -
Music being the stimulus that it is, and when detected being present, is going to have a effect on the mood, it is used in many situations as a method to modify a mood, and even used in conjunction with other stimulus to manipulate a mood.
Music is an attraction because of its effect on a mood, and the continued use of music is certainly one carried out with a intent to stimulate and change a mood.
Does not an 'Audiophile' have a desire to encounter mood changes as a result of a auditory stimulus?
@mijostyn also states " An audiophile is never entirely happy with their system "
This is explained in the context of Racing Cars and the Competitive need to pursue the engineering and aerodynamic formulas to give a Team the leading edge in the competition, the want to shave a 100th of second of a Lap.
I have spent time with the best known designers/producers of HiFi Equipment on the planet, some dead now. I have witnessed on numerous occasions, content supplied by individuals who are well known and respected for their products used for the purposes of replaying music.
Never has one suggested I am to be competitive with another or the system. As a layman's description, I would say the individuals are presenting a design based on their philosophies, for what is their belief of what is a requirement for a device to function and meet a certain criteria of performance. I am sure they are appreciative of ones recognition, and the adoption of the design to be used in a system.
I have no doubts a sales person when encountered in an environment that is solely created to create revenues through sales of a particular limited range of devices will be quite keen to inject the notion of being competitive and to rise above other Brands failings, taking ones system to stratospheric levels, as a result of adopting their wares.
Has @mijostyn found this type of sales individual in their experiences and is quite influenced, using the spiel offered to extract monies, as a justification of the substantial monies spent, and is now delusional as to the real value of the parts purchased, but are happy to use the purchases as the reason to create the alter ego of being a unique type of Audiophile. It does sound more like a Equipment'o'phile, throwing oodles of $$$$$$$ at fanciful purchases.
It is amazing how a Filter Fresh Coffee. and a Plate of Exotic Confections, at the price of a few $'s, and a Clever Play on Words can transform ones budget, to finding another few hundred to few thousand $'s. The Sales Team do know a good loss leader and methods required for setting the environment for the steal.
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@racedoc I am impressed the ViV 9" Arm superseded in use a combined value of Tonearms that must be near $12-15000 in total value. Must have been a great time doing the evaluations.
Myself on occasion receives a invite to play the role of an evaluator of a work going through R&D and as a working Prototype.
Usually there is a situation where a pre-version of the device under scrutiny can be introduced to the assessment and used as a exact mimic, albeit, as a earlier guise.
This is my interest in equipment and even though used in conjunction with listening to music, it is not anything to do with my interest in listening to music. The listening to music interest, starts with a passion for being present and sharing in a live performance, it can be a Busker through to a Stadium Concert. The listening to recorded music is secondary and a form of home entertainment, and the more the social activity achieved during any of the former are for myself for the betterment.
I really enjoy the creative work carried out by others, learning about the reasoning for the designs and how the designs are produced to reduce known flaws of other designs created and of certain Branded Designs.
I get to experience this through mechanical, micro engineering work, such as works done on Tonearms or Platter Bearings, or alternatively through electronics, such as Signal Path, Speed Control, or Power Supplies.
Fortunately, such days set aside aside for demonstrations are built on a social gathering and the fundamental aim is to spend time with like-minded company.
The work undertaken and being assessed is the secondary aim.
My experiences of sharing in the works undertaken by others, leaves me confident in my knowing these individuals are not lost, they are extremely open minded, a little insular with their IP, but quite interactive and willing to readily share the creation produced with over. Certainly not expectant to win favour with all, or in any way suggest another's choices are faulty and not worthy of a place. This is the antithesis of some of the most recent statements made within this thread by a few contributors.
I get the sense the ViV Arm has something of the above attached to it, maybe this is one of the reasons the Arm has an attraction to me.
In a recent post, it is made known I am soon to be involved with upcoming A/B Comparisons, where I am once more invited to be taking part in as an evaluator. This new period of assessments are designed to enable a much more broader usage of a range of Tonearm models are to be put under the knife, where a subjective assessment will be attributed to all models being demonstrated.
Your description does lead myself to believe there is a like-mindedness shared between us.
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As said, Lets see where the snobbery goes.
From another perspective, I do see at times a little competitiveness displayed in relation to HiFi.
When attending a Local Group meeting the Hot Seat can be eyed with intention to have first dibs.
The last Biscuit can be fought over.
As for the equipment belonging to a resident system or a brought along device to be slotted in for a demonstration, I fail to see where the competitiveness is found, the musical encounter is hardly something that generates a King of the Jungle attitude. A curiosity may be expressed, by one who desires to experience an item of interest in ones own system and listening environment.
It will take some convincing to have me embrace such a display of interest as competitiveness.
I do not reveal too much about the work or materials selected to be used, that I have been shown and had descriptions of the merits, that belong to Tonearms I am very familiar with. I can see how revealing too much, might just compromise the Designer/Producers competitive edge. I would not send such a message clearly showing their has been a breach of trust. Again this is equipment based and nothing to do with enjoying a musical encounter.
Terra Firma
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@mijostyn you have stated," I am not your casual audiophile ", whatever that means to you as a means of separating yourself from other audiophiles.
Also you state " a person who is very interested in and enthusiastic about equipment for playing recorded sound, and its quality: as your interpretation of what is an audiophile or more accurately your selecting wording to suit your only being able to see equipment as the key to experiencing the enjoyment of a musical encounter.
The bottom line is that I have no counter for that, these are your unique perspectives and the route you have chosen.
I myself have come to a place where there are exacting standards, where there is a glaringly obvious difference, is that I don't see these standards as required to enjoy a musical encounter, and certainly will not tell another their selections of equipment is trash and not worthwhile.
There is not one reference to equipment in this thread that will be a failure at creating a musical encounter that can be enjoyed. The thread is filled description to support this. I don't doubt anything based on user experience that is being reported on.
As said I like the reports so much that the idea of experiencing an underhung Geometry Appeals and is being discussed as a future occurrence.
The OP does not seem to be steered away from the idea either, the investigation of how to purchase is intensifying.
It looks like in this thread the snobbery expressed by the few that are in cahoots is the most non-influencing.
I suppose the thread could take on a new direction, as there are already a host of thoughts expressed about where there are merits to be had using a rigid coupling and what appears to be different takes on a coupling, to the point design is claimed to be non-rigid.
Does a Tonearm Wand/Pivot suspended on a thread/braid, perform better as a rigid coupling than a Tonearm Wand/Pivot supported with a oil flotation.
I recollect quite clearly rejecting other designs and following the Gimbal Tonearm design many years past, after having demonstrations over a period of time of most Tonearm designs.
Out of curiosity, it would be good to be able asses some of the thoughts that can be presented on this subject, as I made my choice subjectively on the preferred SQ, and not on the mechanical differences to be found in the designs.
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@atmasphere I do like this description, it does somehow resonate with thoughts I have been having, as a result of having experiences of the use of a Tonearm and Platter Spindle Bearing that are modified and have the Tightest of Tolerances put in place for the machining, as well as other measures to create a friction free function.
Add this to a extremely speed stable TT, as a result of modification, it has brought me to the point where there perception is that something is present during the replay that is not usually detected, the overall replay has become a betterment to other experienced methods.
I am of the assumption at present the mechanical weakness now being incurred within the system is the Cartridge, as the assembly is not of a mechanical design to offer the best match to the TT>Tonearm.
I have attempted to resolve this by having a Ortofon Brand Cartridge rebuilt by a Technician using TOTR Ortofon Cartridge Internal Parts and produced to above factory spec' finish, by a Technician who has freelanced to Ortofon, and was instrumental in the development of the Windfeld PW.
With such tolerances engineered for the Tonearm and TT's function, and the attempt made to have a Bespoke Cartridge produced, that was 'hopefully once' a match in mechanical function. In relation to 'hopefully once', I am also of the assumption, as a result of wear and tear/collected contamination, the Cart' will be the first to yield its mechanical properties to the point of creating a lesser performance.
The centering of the hole formed in the LP to the groove centre, if not centred to within a specific dimension, will I assume, also be detectable as having an impact on the SQ being produced.
I do believe the TT's Platter Spindle Modification addresses a substantial proportion of a eccentric rotation, especially when considering the Platter Run Off is in the low microns when measured.
It would be nice to have all LP's play at a dimension of eccentric rotation inaccuracy of 0.1mm or less, but the time required to create this. Is in my view going to equate to a lot of faffing around. I will accept the avoidance of this as a 'vice, in relation to caring about all parameters required to extract every morsel of accurate modulation tracking during a Vinyl Replay.
As always the above is about equipment/tools that are required to have a mechanical/electrical function to enable a replay of recorded music.
It has nothing to do with enjoyment being experienced from a musical encounter. This is achievable though a variety of methods, of which one method or a selection of methods will prove successful.
Equipment is a tool and the more one learns about the merits of a particular design and the more that is known about the way a design has been produced, the more reassured one is that when using certain items for a LP replay, that there is thought gone into assembling the important ancillaries to be used. The knowing will be beneficial to the end user, offering confidence in their choices made, to enable the replay to be carried out with an accuracy put in place for the sound storage mediums replay requirement.
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@mijostyn I take it you have a very short recollection, as I know you read all my posts.
I don't build anything, apart from a CDT and a few stored Cartridges, every device in use is Bespoke produced, either built from scratch or a available product undergone Substantial Modification, such as the Tonearm, Cart', Phonostage, Pre-Amp in the Making, Power Amps, Speakers.
I have fortunately never been too fixated on one system only and have as a result, of being social in the world of HiFi in my Country been demonstrated numerous devices used for analogue replays.
Like all, I arrive at a demonstration as an individual intending on using my ears, to assess the impact the set up can have on myself. When an impression is seen as valuable, the learning about the factors present that are contributors are usually encouraged to be openly discussed. Topics such a room conditioning, equipment and equipment matching, cabling, modifications or bespoke designs are the subject under discussion.
Discoveries are made that can not be made hiding away in a room, with a head full of fanciful/delusional ideas in relation to HiFi equipment. Relying on a few tools to substantiate the findings with only one interpretation of the data produced, if produced accurately at all, does not cut it for me, in relation to you.
I have already in this Thread seen your very biased and selective description of what is a audiophile, to prove your point.
As said, lets see where the snobbery displayed by the few in cahoots goes.
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After a discussion with one of my Tonearm Designer friends, it has ben agreed that on a Tonearm being produced to enable a ease to experience Wires for the Signal Path against a Tonearm with a permanent wire configuration, using the Wire of choice.
There is now to be a Underhung Geometry produced for a demonstration on the Tonearm with the option to use easily exchangeable wires.
One thing this Tonearm will offer as well, is that the Styli, when in contact with the LP Groove is positioned on the same plane as the Vertical Pivot Axis.
The lessening of friction resulting from the above above Styli/Pivot Geometry, along with the tolerances produced for the Tonearms Bearings and extremely low friction present during operation, is going to supply a operational environment for the Cart' that is difficult to surpass.
The TT to be used has not undergone the Platter Bearing Modification that my own one has, as a result, a extra run off will most likely be present with this bearing in use. There is a plan for a New Bearing design for this TT, but to have the most modern methods used, a new stator mounting bowl is needed to be produced, this is a later design to be developed.
The Speed Control on the TT to be used for the trials is modified and functions as my own TT does.
There is a possibility that I might take my TT out of storage and put it to use on the Panzerholz Plinth being used to mount the Two Tonearms. This assembly will be mounted in a manner to create the control conditions that iron out unwanted influences during the assessments.
Note: As with what is assumed is the content of 99% percent of assessments discussed by numerous contributors anywhere, all follow up discussion will be a subjective evaluation and the impressions made will be described.
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@intactaudio " If we don't accept the possibility that something outside our realm of experience might be better the chances of actually moving forward and learning are slim ".
I have learnt over the years the value of this statement, I have never sat tight in a belief, I have always embraced what others are doing and made the time to experience it in use, when ever possible.
As stated by myself recently, I do feel I was wed to the SME IV for a longer period than was ideal, and could have experienced other Tonearms as a Tonearm of interest, as part of the experience/journey with the IV. When this commitment to the arm eventually faded, I bought in a similar arm, and it was the similarity between both arms, that started the quest to discover a arm that was discernably a betterment.
Through travelling and meeting, I discovered an arm design that stood head and shoulders above other items present on the day, on a follow up inquiry and comparing to an owned arm, the change in direction was a no brainer.
As a result of the willingness to experience what others are doing, I have for one been instrumental in creating a social structure with like minded enthusiasts, this has now got friendships born from my willingness to travel and meet with like-minded individuals going back approx' 28 years.
Over the years, I have built on this and have been demonstrated many devices and designs put to use in systems belonging to others, as well as being loaned items to experience in my own system. It can be seen in plenty of my posts made by myself, I readily loan devices to be used in systems belonging to others.
As a result of this, I have today in use in my system, designs produced by individuals I have met as a result of my willingness to travel and meet, I am not a Branded Equipment user, nearly all devices are Bespoke Built or a substantially modified Brands Model.
I have been fortunate, and have been able to shape a system and sound that for my own purposes is totally satisfying, and one that when the system is assembled and up and running, there are invites immediately taken up to come around and listen to some old favorite tracks along with newly acquired ones.
More recently this has expanded to CD and not just Vinyl replays, the Perfect Wave Audio CDT, is the only non-modified Branded device used in the system.
This thread has also gave me a few memory jog's, it has pushed myself to recollect some of the equipment specifically singled out for demonstrations during the late 80's / early 90's.
It has also helped me remember the times when I would take individuals out to sophisticated dealerships in the 80/90's and introduced them to the aspire to Vinyl Set Ups, from the likes of Roksan, Michell, Rega and Linn and I am sure some others as well.
I also recollect getting a group of like-minded friends to accompany myself to a London Hotel where Ivor Tiefunbrun was hosting a Seminar on Turntable Design and obviously relating the technical jargon to Linn Philosophies.
It was around this time as well, I went out of my way to experience the EAR Design where a Quad ESL 57 was directly coupled to Valve Amp Power Supply. The influence that TPV has had, has been permanent, I probably got my first 'must have' obsession, which produced in the late 90's had a Commissioned Bespoke Built Power Amp design specifically to drive Quad 57's.
I will claim these have been my very early endeavours in enjoying the set ups of others without too much of a personal interest attached, just present for the convivial side and the gaining of experiences.
I do recall there was intelligence to be found around vinyl that was a stimulus, very interesting individuals who were toying with extracting the betterment from the available TT's.
In the latter end of the 90's, I abandoned the use of Belt Drives and went down the route of the Idler Drive, this is where I first encountered engineering practices from adept machinists and had a Bearing Upgrade produced from a cutting edge service from the day. The road led on to being interested in mechanical interfaces and the tolerance constraints that could be worked with, I learnt a lot.
It all changed to a new direction and excitement, when introduced to modern materials and designs that are able to work with such materials in use, that the knowing about new options leap frogged forward. There are materials in use today, that are not mainstream, probably even not spoken of publicly, as the use of them can have official secrets documents signed onto by those in the know. Being informed of such materials in private conversation and the other substances used to enable the optimised performance has been quite an experience of learning.
To have been demonstrated the work undertaken and immediately recognising how discernable the end products are in use, has been a special experience and almost unique, not encountered by many.
Today, I do believe I am in contact/friendship with individuals adept in their skills. I am certainly experiencing the work created by these individuals, that are undertaken where the materials used, is enabling engineering dimensions to be produced to the tightest of tolerances and able to maintain a friction free operation for a critical interface in a Tonearm and TT's Platter Bearing.
Nearly 30 years in and the inquisitiveness remains strong, and the results being experienced are today the ones superseding the previous indelible memories where a very good impression has been made.
I am not apologetic in any way for my not being a 'hands on type', when it comes to micro-engineering and electronics, I am fortunate to share the company of those that know better.
Producing Structures is where I excel, buffoon fingers are tolerated better in that environment.
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@intactaudio Your statement certainly was attuned to endeavours I have been loyal to.
A Long response, I know, but not too long for a 30 year summary.
It could have easily been a Calendar that was required to time the read 😂.
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The rigid coupling, ie, Tonearm and Chassis rigidly fastened and connected via precise Geometry, using a coupling material that has exceptional damping / dissipation property is very advantageous.
To have a Platter and Tonearm interfaced and functioning with the tightest mechanical tolerances in place for the critical interfaces and offering a friction free operation is also very advantageous.
Combine the above two advantageous conditions together and the outcome is a mechanical interface that is close to being absolute in optimisation for the function.
When the advantageous conditions are present, it enables other concerns to be considered, of which some are taken quite serious and others not too much.
Concerns such as:
Is the Mounting of the Assembly fit for the role, where minimal environmental impacts are controled to the point of not being detrimental.
Is the Eccentricity of the LP able to produce Wow that has a detectable presence and is a detriment to the signal being produced, as the result.
Then there are the micro issues, such as the impact of drag.
Is the Wow able to cause friction/drag, that is detrimental to the signal produced. .
Is the styli not being at the same height/plane as the Vertical Pivot Bearings Axis, able to produce drag/friction that is detrimental to the signal produced.
Is the condition of the styli, (not ultra polished) able to introduce friction/drag, to the point it is able to impact on the function of the armature and even worse tonearm, producing a condition that is detrimental to the signal .
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@intactaudio Dave good to see the inquisitiveness ( the quality of wanting to discover as much as you can about things), is proving to be availing.
I was off this thread, but my visit and your last post has got me 'back in the game'.
As said, I have been fortunate in having it agreed a New Tonearm Design, I am being asked to be present for a demonstration and offer a assessment of the demonstration experience, has been agreed to have one of the models set up as a Underhung Geometry.
It will be a rigidly coupled Mounting, it will be used in comparison to the 9" and 12" Overhung Geometry. The length of the Arm to be allocated for a Underhung Geometry is yet to be made known.
The Plinth/Chassis will be able to mount Two Tonearms to a 12" length.
The demonstration is to use a Two Cart's, same Brand/Model with very similar hours of usage.
The Tonearm Design also has a Geometry, that has the Styli when in the Groove at the same height as the Vertical Bearings Axis Pivot Point.
Your taking the time to create the experience and evaluate, has been a added boost to my intentions. I am keen to see what is able to be created and where the attraction of the Geometry can be discovered, in relation to the Overhung alternative.
As per usual, whether Overhung or Underhung, all assessments will end up as a subjective evaluation, that is to be made through drawing from multiple years of experiences of being demonstrated multiple differing HiFi related Designs being put to use.
There is a Computer Programme available occasionally for System Health Checks, especially for a Vinyl Set Up. The use of this on a well known system produced a end result, where the improvement in the presentation was by myself perceived as almost Tangible. The imaging become very focused and the performers were more present than what was remembered. This Software might? be available for the demonstration day as well.
It will be used at some point to give the New Tonearm Design the fairest of lore, as getting the Cart' optimised in its set up Geometry will go a long way to help learn as much as can be offered.
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@intactaudio As stated previously, I was out of this Thread.
Other Posts have caught my attention.
"Could you detail your room/system and the LP tracks you are using for your listening tests?"
"It is an interesting but extremely complicated and hard to fathom, not tonearm design but the psychology behind human hearing."
If submitting your decor' materials, specific room treatment materials, and positioning of structures within the room.
It will be a great help if the information can be supplied about whether there is a Window present and if it is observed from the listening position.
Can the Colour of your Curtains/Blinds be made known, and if these were pulled closed or remained open, as such a impact of color can have a real effect on the effect of Psycho Acoustics and could easily make your report contain a deficient content 🤣🤣
Somebodies desperate to to win over this Overhung/Underhung thingy that is going on. The Hay Makers are now being thrown, desperate wild swings from the ones who have found themselves on the back foot once more.
The two statements made above, should become/not become (I know my leaning), the new precedent being set, for a qualification required to be revealed, prior to all subjective appraisal being offered up.
The last qualification for a subjective evaluation having gravitas, that I recollect as being made by one of the producers of a above statement. Was that there was a visitor who was a Orchestra Member? and the description offered of the visitors appraisal and opinion, was to be taken as the proof of the perfectness of a system demonstration that took place.
To cast doubt on the findings during the demonstration, the visitor was not even Blind Folded during periods of replay to be evaluated.
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@lewm I am open minded on this subject.
The Thread has been a prompt, and as result, I have the opportunity coming to encounter a version of Underhung Geometry.
I have no intention on commenting on Underhung or 9" vs 12" Wands until the upcoming experiences are complete. As all demonstration will be using the same fundamental Tonearm Design on the same TT, the the same Brand / Model Cart' with almost identical usage hours.
This type of demonstration is not too common and will be the first time I have been able to have a comparison that has set up conditions so closely matched.
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@cleeds You Stated, "Unfortunately, there are some users here who very much treat discussions as a battle where the adversary must be annihilated. They make absolute pronouncements, and then attack any person or product that conflicts with their personal gospel. It stifles conversation."
@neonknight has created another Thread seeking ideas about Tonearm Alternatives for a owned model.
'neonknight', as an extension of the earlier started Thread and I assume as a result of looking into the world of Tonearms. Has most likely made a discovery that got his attention.
The want has been expressed to learn a little more, resulting in creating this Thread, where there is a inquiry about the Viv Lab Tonearm, resulting in the following:
"I am trying to do my due diligence about this arm. I am just having a hard time getting my head around this idea of zero overhang and no offset. Does this arm really work the way it is reported to do?"
Six Pages have followed, where it can be seen, reports offered by users of the Viv Lab Arm, have been denied the validity being made known about their experiences and the Good Impression made. Viv Lab Arm Users have even made it known that they have had it supersede other Brand Tonearms that show up regularly as a Tonearm to aspire to, or seen as a recommendation to others to seriously consider.
The Thread has a healthy motivation, as it has certainly been with a content supplied through the positive information, through the reporting on user experiences, that has encouraged other to investigate further and in some cases create the chance to experience the design or a close alternative when possible.
Hoo Rah for that as a outcome, nothing ventured , nothing gained. Certainly no noticeable 'contempt prior to investigation' from this group of inquisitive types.
The most noticeable alternative approach to the Thread from the above two outlined approaches, are looking to be from individuals that have completely misunderstood the Op's inquiry.
These individuals have approached the Thread to do the utmost best to impose their interpretations on why a Overhung Geometry is the only configuration worthwhile considering and why the Underhung Geometry is not worth any consideration.
It is this approach that is seemingly way 'off track', pardon the pun, and quite a distance from the OP's initial inquiry.
As a basic evaluation, the OP, has still got an interest in the Viv Lab Arm and has made inroads to learning how to acquire one.
Users of the Viv Lab Arm, do not appear through their reporting, to be swayed to making a change to an alternative arm.
A few very experienced users of the Vinyl Medium have and are to actively create an experience of the Geometry of the Viv Lab Arm. This is where I connect with the Thread.
A 'minority' are left licking their wounds to fight another day, 'there is certainly no winners in this camp' the arguments presented are off topic. Looking at the follow up the the posts made from this camp, it does look like the content has been dismissed as being, not of any use by many readers of it.
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@lewm I 'tip my hat to you' for being this adventurous.
The descriptions on offer from your early usage are quite interesting, they certainly suggest a perception is in place where the important instrumentation in a recording are now 'lesser constrained' in their presence, in freer space and possibly perceived as more honest/real? .
The idea that Three Models of Cart's have also not received any criticism, suggests the impression made can be ubiquitous and extend into further Cart's.
I also like the way the thoughts are already onboard about how to further eek the presentation to ones own unique preference by suggesting the combinations of materials that can be used for Wand and Headshell, as for the Headshell, I see these options extending beyond your own suggestions.
If 'lesser constrained' is the correct description for your musical encounters, it is this as a description that was the deciding factor for myself to remove from regular usage, Tonearms designed around copied Rega Design.
It is quite easy to understand why there will be variety to the methods adopted to be used with AS.
The use of AS is to set up a force to be applied to the modulation on the Grooves Side Wall.
At some point this force and the mechanical energies being produced as result of the set up, will be detected as having an audible effect.
The levels of recorded data within the modulation is to vary across different Vinyl LP's and in some cases different pressings of the same LP, will also be causing different impressions in relation to the chosen AS force.
If one were extremely anal or sensitive enough to the effect being detected, to the point they become biased. AS can easily become a setting that one feels will benefit the audible sonic if it undergoes constant alterations.
The other extreme, and one that might just prove the better of two evils, would be to remove the effects of AS to the point it is perceived as having almost zero influence on the audible sonic.
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The most recent challenges are based on the very obvious differences in the Geometries selected.
As said before I have received enough information through this Thread to have been stimulated and influenced, resulting in the request being made to a Tonearm designer to incorporate a underhung design into a upcoming comparison and evaluation of Tonearms.
Even when the Geometry of the New Design Tonearm is one that is very closely matched to the 'Viv', the experience will not in any way allow for assuming the Tonearm resembles the 'Viv' in use. There will be quite obvious differences in the Mechanical Interfaces used for each design.
What will be learnt is how the conventional Geometry used on a Tonearm of a particular design, compares to the same design Tonearm with an alternative Geometry.
I am today, as a result of having encountered experiences gathered over the period of multiple years, left with a certainty that when Tonearms are experienced in use using the alignment Geometries from Lofgren, Baerwald or Stevenson, it is neither of these alignments that are responsible for showing out the noticeable differences that can be detected between presentations.
Setting to one side the variations of Cart' and devices in use for a system, that can easily be suggested as accountable for a producing a noticeable difference, there is also the Mechanical Structure of the Tonearm and the methods used to produce the Mechanical Interfaces in a Tonearm.
I am today very interested in Tonearms that have been designed to be with a extremely low friction impact on the mechanical interfaces, the Tonearm I have in use at present has many man hours required to create this condition.
I can't but help feel that the positive impression being made from use of the 'Viv' by @lewm, is additionally influenced by experiencing a Tonearm with an alternative Mechanical Interface, inclusive of methods for transferring/dissipating energy not seen in a conventional design.
As for Geometry options, I am using for more that 8 Years and remaining contented using the Stevenson Geometry.
I don't feel the need to revisit any other similar Geometries as means to replace Stevenson, but do like the idea of experiencing a Geometry that is quite different in concept.
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@dogberry I am suggesting there is a obvious difference of how the Mechanical Interfaces function on the 'Viv' design, in comparison to other more conventional designs.
It also seems from the literature, materials chosen have a secondary contribution, as energy produced is specifically transferred into the material for dissipation.
I am not suggesting the material selected is solely responsible, but the difference as a Mechanical Interfaces function, which is not Typical as a Interface, can be producing a change to the sonic, that has a noticeable attraction to the end user.
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@dogberry I have not suggested any of the Mechanical Interfaces on the 'Viv' are 'Mysterious' but only not 'Typical'. In my case I know quite a lot about the concept and once expressed and interest in producing a robust version of the 'Viv' Floating Pivot.
I am treading carefully, as the subject can kick off another how the Math to prove your point scenario. There is no shortage of 'across forum threads', that cover damping, where Oil usage to control energy transferal within a TA are discussed.
Designs for Tonearms using a Oil Reservoir at a Mechanical Interface, range from the commonly (most likely because Big Brand Names use it) seen and typical Rear End Trough and Paddle, Oil Floating Pivot ( Lesser Seen ), Encapsulated Oil Floating Pivot (maybe only the 'Viv'), Headshell Oil Damping (very rare).
In my Travels and meeting with other Audio Enthusiasts I have been able to be demo'd Oil Floating Pivot Designs. On a few occasions I have been demo'd these on a 'same system' in comparison to same model TT's (Not Same Cart' or Plinthed). From recollection the finished design was inspiring and was able to create good discussion with the producer, from a recollection of the sonic, there was not a presentation I could become attracted to, and the ideas I once had about producing a 12" Floating Pivot TA were quenched.
Now @lewm has pointed out there is a info discovered that leans toward the suggestion, the design was born with the intent to create a 'ultra low friction'. This leaves me much more convinced, there is more than just Geometry being responsible for the positive impression being made.
If ultra low friction is an achieved mechanical property. As a result of my most recent TA experiences, I am confident in my claiming that audibly, there are substantial sonic benefits to be had when this condition is achieved, it is knowing about this condition and the audibly sonic benefits experienced, that encouraged me to have the use of my TA's (that as models have a lot of supporters) Superseded.
To achieve ultra low friction on a conventional TA Design requires many man hours to produce the condition. I am also of the understanding (through receiving demo's) it is the employing the follow up treatments, that substantially emphasise the sonic qualities that can be achieved through the preparation work.
Maybe the 'Viv' Designer has found a way achieve a reasonably affordable TA that boasts an 'ultra low friction', with a methodology that does not require excessive man hours, or excessive costings to achieve the objective?
On this matter, for those who are not knowing, the experience has to be had, just as @lewm has ventured into, (Nothing Ventured - Nothing Gained).
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My suggestion for the intention to be using a underhung Geometry in comparison to a usual geometry, for a same Tonearm > TT> Cart', has been to also see if a prompt could be made to learn if this can be achieved using the 'Viv'.
I'll keep looking in to see how the trialling with the 'Viv' evolves.
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I'm with @lewm
It is a wonderful place to arrive at during an investigation, when all that is wanted is to forget the lot and just kick back and listen to the result.
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All the learning that can be had in relation to the audible experience being encountered when using the 'Viv' is very well documented across a variety of forums.
Any descriptions using Math to attempt to make the reported on Positive Experiences more understandable, is going to be real uphill climb.
Why not spare oneself the effort, and relish in the audible qualities that are without doubt, quite discernable.
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One other desirable attribute for a Cartridge Function is for continuous Signal Path from Coil to Phonostage. Fragility of the assembly and the inconvenience, are just two factors that are going to make this a very bespoke choice for an individual. For myself I have had thoughts on this methodology for quite a period of time, and am willing to bear with the obstacles foreseen and unforeseen.
I have a design for a Cart' and to get this in place, due to ongoing conflict within a Country, there is a period of waiting to be endured. The end product is where a Cart' will have been rebuilt using a few options not commonly seen in use, especially by the Brand that produced the Cart'.
One area of the design change will be to use a PC Triple C/EX Wire, that will be directly attached to the Coils, bypassing the Cart Lead Out Pins. This is a very fragile assembly and is yet to decided if the C/EX will be a Tag Wire or a Continuous Wire.
If it does become a Continuous Wire, the idea of Hard Wiring the Termination into the SUT will certainly be presented as an idea to be tried out, it is a experience I would very much like to have been able to have.
My experiences to date has shown that certain wire and connectors in the Signal Path, depending on Type, can present a SQ, that in my assessment is a detriment. At the same time when a certain type of Wire and a certain type of connector has been selected, there is little that can be detected to create the suggestion, that the SQ is being effected in a detrimental way.
With the latter in mind, I am keen to hear the Signal Path without connectors in use for transferring signal produced be the Cart'. There does seem to be the possibility something further in betterment of the SQ can be achieved.
Once the Cart' Rebuild Service is no longer being cut off through sanctions on the Country, and the design for the Cart' is finally agreed and achieved. The agreement will include, that any works caried out on the Signal Path, if causing difficulties with the user interface, the Cart' can be returned to a almost original signal Path at a very fair cost within a short timescale.
Nothing Ventured - Nothing Gained
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All the other owners of the Viv, will undoubtedly have their own agendas for the use of their time, using their limitation in contributing posts to add to the inefficacy that this ongoing discussion is creating, is certainly not a substantiation that there is a lack of conviction to the ownership and usage of the 'Viv'.
Extending to other forums and one in particular, 'Shakti', from 'What's Best Forum' has expressed a very worthwhile experience with their usage of the 'Viv'. There are very limited in number individuals who share this persons knowledge about and experiences of using Vinyl Replay ancillaries. A recent post referred to their continued interest and that they will be looking into methods to enable to be used in present set ups.
Even though not a direct comparison to @lewm descriptions, there is plenty of commonality in the feel good and positivity the usage of this arm is able to generate.
I fully get this euphoria, as I can relate to it from the change toward and then usage of a Tonearm I adopted to be used over other respected Branded Models.
As said previously, this thread is to become an uphill climb for certain contributors, life is certainly too short for this one as a hike.
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