Well, more accurately, nothing got through to you. Not on this thread or the many others on the same subject. That would probably make you dense. Or maybe you’re pretending to be dense. If so, you’re doing an excellent job. Would little pictures help?
Showing 50 responses by geoffkait
I guess you could say imagination playing tricks, or our biases confirming what we believe. I have a bias that cables that measure similar sound the same. In a sighted test even if the cables have been altered to obviously sound different I would think they sound the same in an unsighted test I might be able to hear differences. It’s just the way humans are wired, all of us.
>>>>Huh? Humans aren’t wired like that at all. Perhaps best to leave the psychological issues to the professionals. Woulda, shoulda, coulda! 🤗
Once they’ve gotten a foothold in your thread they can be very difficult to get rid of. Did someone forget to put out the Roach Motels last night? I won’t mention any names but this is their glubson stock in trade. And there is usually only one direction the thread can glubson and his dumbass Brer Fox and Tar Baby routine head.
I kind of doubt anything in audio is actionable the way you define it. You pays your money and you take your chances. There are no guarantees in life. Especially in a hobby S subjective as audio. Geez o’ flip! People would be much better off generally speaking if they believed in too much rather than too little. and if skeptics were so smart why can’t they prove that fuses are not directional? Hel-loo! This all reeks of pseudo skepticism. No offense. You know how to get a stubborn donkey to cross the bridge don’t you? Hint, use two bricks. 🧱
I am not a hand holder, especially in these times of social distancing. Besides, as I’ve often reported, there are many thousands of owners of various brands of fuses, even stock fuses, who report significant sonic differences in fuse direction. So unless there is some mass hallucination or global conspiracy....
Fuses might might have a sound characteristic if they are in the signal path but any competently made modern component shouldn’t be using fuses there. Most of these fuses people are replacing is in the mains. This thread isn’t about fuses.
>>>>>What’s it all about, Alfie? What is the signal path? What is the signal? Hel-loo? 🤗 Don’t be a refusenik! 😤
Well it’s hard to argue with regard to directionality against the data if indeed the data are valid. One thing is the average difference is about 0.000005 Ohm (or about in that neighborhood). Given the difference is so small, has the data been "massaged"? Also the study didn’t mention the sonic difference with respect to directionality - only show DC resistance.
>>>>>I’m starting to suspect you didn’t get good grades in reading when you were in kindergarten. Not only does the study state that differences in resistance were measured for both DC and AC circuits but that listening tests reveled larger differences in sound quality than could be explained by the differences in resistance. I mean, come on, guys, all audio circuits are AC. The resistance is not necessarily the reason why sound is different according to direction, it is evidence. Nevertheless, the lowest resistance direction of the fuse always correlates to best sound quality. See, that’s not so hard, is it?
Back to the study, that fact that the difference of resistance in both direction is so small, it does beg the question if the study was valid or the data been massaged or skewed?
Also nowhere in the study said anything about listening impression vs. direction of the fuses.
>>>>The whole point of the study is that the differences in resistance - though very small - are consistent with listening tests. Why else would HIFi Tuning publish the study on their web site? Duh? Ah, yes, the plaintive whine of the pseudo skeptic - “I looked but I couldn’t find it anywhere.” 😩 So, it looks like pseudo skeptics 3, aftermarket fuse owners 100,000. 🤗
I guess they are time constrained although if you dig deep enough in that link they look at phonographs, tape, digital, amplifiers, microphones, mixers, feedback, EQ,speakers and that’s just one little section but yeah nothing on backwards wires.
>>>>Sounds real interesting. I’ll be sure to jump right on it.
I wonder why it isn’t mentioned? Oversight I guess.
>>>>You’re getting warm. It’s because they have too much on their plate already. They have “real science” to contemplate. It takes them ten or twenty years just to contemplate anything. Even if they ever heard of directionality or other audiophile pet projects - which they haven’t - they would not wish to look foolish or gullible in the eyes 👀 of the other stodgy big brains. 🧠 🧠 🧠 Ditto for Schumann frequency generators, aftermarket fuses, Mpingo discs, Silver Rainbow 🌈 Foil, Tiny Little Bowl resonators 🍲 🍲 crystals, cryo’d cables 🥶, things of that nature. They would laugh so hard milk 🥛 would squirt out of their noses 😤😤😤 You don’t want to bring down the whole science community, do you? Same goes for AES. Same ball of wax.
djones512,061 posts05-27-2020 7:28amSound and hearing the amazing things we know in the 21st century.
>>>>That’s weird. I don’t see wire directionality mentioned anywhere on that site. Or even an explanation of what the audio signal is. Oh well, maybe all those big brains 🧠 will get around to it in the 22nd century. What they omitted is what we don’t know. 😬
Quote-"I believe that there are aspects of hearing that machines do not measure"
At the current time I am sure that we are not even asking the "correct" questions. And without those questions how do you measure? What do you measure? What scale is to be used?
Do we really ever use simply "one’, sense at a time? What about that pesky, "Sixth" sense?
How much of a role does "individual perception", play?
Simply one’s mood can change any "perception". Hence how does that variable factor?
And in how many ways? New scale?
>>>>As I just posted, this is not some new science or untested theory. The voltage drop across a wire is different for each direction. The best sound of any cable or fuse or wire is when the voltage drop is lowest for the direction toward the speakers. 🔚 Even though the voltage drop difference is quite tiny the correlation to the sound is 🔜consistent🔙
We still don’t know the mechanism for how/why the sound is changed by physical asymmetry of wire. But I’m open for offers.
I have to say it is a bit naive to think one can make some basic measurements of the cables and then trying to correlate that to human perception of music ... just saying.
>>>> It’s not naive at all. That’s what HiFi Tuning some time ago did for fuses. Their measurements of the voltage drop across various brands of fuses, both high end and stock, in both directions 🔛 correlate to listening results. The results are consistent, repeatable and transferrable. Yes, I know what you’re thinking, I never heard that before.
A fuse always sounds best when the lowest voltage drop is in the direction toward the speaker. 🔚 You could almost say it’s a Law. Furthermore, there is the empirical evidence of thousands of high end fuse owners who report directionality of the fuses. Cables, too. Hel-loo!
Inexpensive cables in the right direction 🔜 can sound better than expensive cables in the wrong direction 🔙 Heck, you can run the experiment yourself, ya know. Just flip whatever cables you have around and listen. If you’re not sure the first time do it again. You can run controlled double blind tests or whatever til you’re blue in the face 🥶 if you want, nobody’s stopping you.
I support the working stiff, the disenfranchised, the have nots, the timid, the destitute and the non technical. Be sure and check with heaudio first cause sure as shootin’ he’ll be jumping down your throat if you say you got good results.
heaudio, you are at least two paradigm shifts behind the power curve. One hundred thousand have heard it for themselves. There are only about four of you who continue to argue. The goat laughs at you,
If the impact on frequency response is <0.1db there is little(no) evidence we can detect a difference and even more variance at the upper end of the spectrum to detect a difference.
>>>>Well, no evidence that you’ve provided. That’s for sure. I’m getting the idea you just like running your mouth.
”I’ve looked everywhere but I can’t find any evidence to support their claims.” - Whine of the lifetime pseudo skeptic.
I hate to judge before all the facts are in but haven’t you skeptics jumped to conclusions? You know, you’re suppose to test BEFORE 🔙 drawing conclusions, not AFTER 🔜. Hel-loo! All this chitter chatter about blind tests or any kind of tests for that matter is just talk. And talk is cheap. Do your own tests and report back. We’ll see who gets what results and tally them up. Gee, it’s almost like you guys never heard of the scientific method. You start with a hypothesis and test to see if your hypothesis is true or not. It’s not complicated. Come on, guys. Get it together.
- Your friend and humble testing guru.
Also I don’t buy the fact that the "resistance" is lower in one direction vs. the other as said here by Mr. Kaitt.
For example, each spool of wire consists of many many meters of wire. If the wire always measure less resistance in one direction, then by the time you measure from the beginning to the end of the spool, the resistance may go smaller and smaller into "negative". So this can’t explain it either.
>>>>My nomination for the most absurd explanation for why directionality cannot be real. Are you posting while high? You little dickens come up with the most ridiculous reasons why something isn’t possible. Perhaps you’d be better off coming up with reasons why it is possible.
In pt 2 the writer says,
“What does not make sense with my theory, is that music is traveling through the wire as an alternating current. This makes my theory difficult to accept. What is not difficult, is hearing the difference in wire directionality. I don’t know how to prove my theory, so it will simply remain a theory for now.“
>>>>>That’s a pretty big plot hole since all audio cables are alternating current. If he had paid attention to Audiogon Threads on directionality he would know the answer.
The “chevron pattern“ below the surface of the wire - the deformation of the copper atomic structure - would be damn hard to see unless you had Superman’s X-Ray vision. 👀 Furthermore the chevron pattern on the surface of the wire, if that’s even there, which I’m not sure it is, doesn’t necessarily mean anything. So, far we’re not anywhere closer to an explanation than when we started.
An excerpt for the OP article,
“While wire directionality is not fully understood, it is clear that because of the wire casting process, the internal grain structure of the conductor has a slight chevron shape, and it is this physical difference that is consistent with which direction the wire sounds better. When the directionality is “backwards” there is a loss of resolution, cymbals sound like a spray-can and are truncated, voices are grainy and lack presences, the sound stage is flattened, and bass is less defined. When the wire directionality is correct, the music is more relaxed, resolving, delineated, more present, open, and believable.”
>>>>While that doesn’t really explain the mechanism, the operational details, for what is happening to the signal, it does a good job explaining what the sonic effects of directionality are.
“If I could explain it to the average dude or dudette they wouldn’t have given me the Nobel prize.”
“People would be generally better off if they believed in too much instead of too little.”
When I come here I keep a journal mostly of all the good jokes so I can show them to people in the future where I come from. They say they like them a lot since there are no audio forums in the future and certainly not jokes of this caliber. I had to get back on a few of my medications I had forgotten about.