Again, so much internet space wasted ... the reason for starting a new thread is exactly what I try to avoid:
on the previous one onlookers and know-it-alls filled up 90% of the thread with their assumptions.
Reading through close to 300 posts yielded little valuable, practical info.
On most threads we get comments "sure, go ahead and try this and that, as long as your wallet is comfortable with it", YMMV, etc but no, on the previous thread too many needed to voice their doubts about the direction of a fuse. Ever tried to ask some of the questions here on a forums at, say, Best Buy, like "does cable matter?"
You promptly will feel exactly the way how I feel here, thanks "audiophiles"! Great help!
For clarification, I solicit comments like"
"..with the Audio Magic BeeWax, the direction goes like the lettering on the fuse (like HiFi Tuning)..."
|
Almarg, as always, I very much appreciate your comments and knowledge. FYI I have been using aftermarket fuses since 2009, thank god I haven’t come out with it then as some on this and certainly on the other thread would have mentally burnt me on a stick.
My answer is less geared to you but more for those who landed here: first of all, the $ ratio between devices and "infrastructure" (*) is a function of the eye (ear) of the beholder. As an owner of HFC cables, I know that many have "overinvested" in magnetic cables, following their addiction. The question begs: if a $1k device, be it in the form of magnets with cables or "just fuses", can elevate the sound into a system that is $10k more (I know it gets fuzzy here), it may constitute a good ROI. In my case, I buy AMR fuses under $3 (no trailing zeros!) each. Rest assured, the main fuse is and will/should remain the most expensive one, then comes the four fuses for both channels. My total investment is est. around $400, a price of a power cord upgrade. Now if I would post a new thread asking advice for a power cord upgrade, I wouldn’t be chastized as much as here on this very thread.
Lastly, if one followed my threads, I have asked for a worthy successor of my NAD M25 months ago, no replies (maybe my thread on the NAD M25 wasn’t controversial enough) so either no interest or no valid alternative.
As mentioned on my systems page, regular visits to music events and sanity checks in the mirror (aka wallet) helps to mitigate straying too much from the path.
Now, again, besides the regulars here, would anyone share his/her experience on the direction of fuses?
(*) I have denominated infrastructure devices like isolation tweaks, cables, power conditioning, etc that enables/empowers the system. Some here on the Gon go as far (read crazy for the non-believers) as 70% invested in infrastructure.
|
Many have mentioned that the manufacturer may put on markings on a whim or can change the process so that the markings are done on the other end. Sure, it can and probably has happened for smaller batches. I am just trying to get a consensus so that I am best prepared for the starting position, which may be the best guess.
Charles,
thanks for your feedback on SR fuses and happy to learn that SR has the same process for both red and black.
You’re absolutely right and, as mentioned before, I really appreciate the vast knowledge and the logical approach Al adopts in his comments. I quoted him exactly because he is an authority in his field and wanted to counter others who may use his words to put more fire on the wood. Also because I know he won’t be easily offended/stirred and am sure before he posts, he will read mine so he knows I have no intention to undermine his authority.
Now if I had quoted mapman or GK,...
Any best experience from NAD M25/M27 owners (which fuse worked best)?
|
IMHO Ted at SR puts out a disclaimer and I think it is more likely that a manufacturer keeps the same process (why change?). AMR produced fuses en masse as did Isoclean and for the aforementioned brand, they are, so far, consistent IME (same as HiFi). Another indicator is that HiFiTuning users have consistently reported the direction in the same way as some SR users. Thanks Charles1dad and others for sharing this. It is people like you that has made this hobby more fun and trustworthy for me as I have made most of my purchases based on comments on the Gon. People like GK, though a bit overzealous in postings for my liking, seems to be genuinely interested to find out/help out. He may know that nerdy people can at times put off people (polarizing is only good for electric components) and sympathy counts when buying gear, hel-loo :-). May I also suggest using PMs (e.g. to mapman) instead of a public shout out? Thank you!
As for the circuitry, I know what upstream is as I have the schematics of the amp. Before submitting this dreaded thread, I have the following strategy: try first the fuses on L+R channels with open cover, assuming the fuses are labeled in the same way and proceed from there. Now I will resort to making sure that the 3 main channels (L, R, C) sound coherent. I simply don’t have time for the other channels and will assume that the labeling process is less random that I hoped for. This should be a 1-month project, included bypassing some caps, not a lifetime trial and error. I dread of the amp surviving me.
Again I would like to stump on the example of coupling caps (in tube amps, etc) where most manufacturers don’t care to implement it the correct way (aka polarity/direction), leaving improvements to modding shops and aware DIYphiles (wait, do I smell a conspiracy?).
Lesson learned, early adopters (we should have been over that for fuses but obviously we’re not) pay the price/scrutiny.
I sensed that the fire on my stake seems to fizzle out, you all have my gratitude for that!
|
Thanks mapman and GK!
Al, thanks for the info, I got most of the manuals there at hifiengine and in this case, got the service manual directly from a good source at NAD. I try to have service manuals / schematics of most of my gear, primarily to understand where they come from design wise. Most tech departments understand why I wanted it and provide the info easily. If the manufacturer remains stubborn, sites like DIYaudio and others may shed a light.
A side question: I enjoy the zapped products from SR: fuses, wall sockets (though Furutech GTX- D(r) remain my reference, havent tried the new NCF version) , etc. Have you experimented with superhigh voltage to create that tunneling effect in cables?
For others that feel "attracted": I have been using HFC cables for many years with pretty good results. I have stalled in my quest to create my own magnet cable (just for fun) as I can't find a suitable ready-made conductor cable, would be helpful for any practical hints.
*also a* Charles
|
Great feedback, keep them flowing and thanks for the link jea48! Maybe i should spend more time at AA, people there seems pretty open minded. No snide comments, no declaration of insanity.
Thanks auxinput for a great assessment of what would fit and bringing up the Furutech fuse, it was on my mind last year that slipped off my list. Since it is just "home theater" or my 2nd system, I have put a limit of $75 per fuse/$ 150 board for the main channels, so the Furutech seems to be a great contender. I have a NordOst Valhalla power cord to inject speed and transparency into the NAD pre, the NAD M25 is currently fed by a HiDiamond P4, possibly superseded by the Cerious Technologies Graphane Extreme (awaiting feedback on another thread). I have already bought the SR Black for the main fuse, upgrading from the SR Red.
For my DAC (PSA DSD), my favorites are Audio Magic BeeWax and Audio Horizon Platinum, the Platinum has better midrange whereas the BeeWax is extremely well balanced.
I have the AM nano liquid a long time ago in my CJ 140 mono blocks, upgraded them with HiFi Tuning Supreme first (the other variants of HiFi Tuning all have too many deficiencies), then SR Red.
For my HT and library system, I used to have Isoclean fuses, before they were upgraded.
Unrelated to fuses since this has been brought it up:
About using superlatives in one’s product description. Ted Denney has earned a great deal of skepticism and still comes up every time with promises close to live-changing experiences in audio. His HFTs, pretty popular, got a revision not long after the release (HFT V2) and now he proclaims the new UEF dots are the new gold standard. GK, the audiophile world has a good memory. I have been using SR power cables and have abandoned them because every 6 months the king died, long live the new king! I get there is R&D (I doubt there is really that much R&D at SR, maybe marketing R&D as a lot of Ted’s three letter gimmick are rehashed gadgets) but is not it coincidental (for the top line of his company) that SR product releases are so predictable and constantly short?
Lastly, people listen to people they like and buy from people they like (hel-loo!). There are plenty great examples (Lew @CJ , Peter @Symposium, Jim @PAD, John @Audience, Dave@StarSound, Chris @VHAudio, ...etc).
|
Al, have I fallen for a SR marketing trick? Their website states repetitively "... By applying a two million volt signal to a cable at a specific pulse modulation, and ultra high frequency for an exact duration of time, we transform the entire cable at a molecular level through a process we call Quantum Tunneling...."
FYI I was part of the AP/MTT chapter and worked for a large telecom equipment manufacturer so no high voltage experience. I did had fun with Microwave oven trafo powered arcing in labs though... |
Update: Reading up on comments on after market fuses, I have decided to try the following setup:
Furutech for L, R, C channel
N/C for other channels
AMR for the power supply board
AH Platinum for the main AC
|
Jeff, simply on Fleabay. I bought them first from Darren (AMR distributor) before but was pleased to find them this year elsewhere. As other mentioned, not great (compared to the current line up) but certainly better than stock.
David, you may want to compare the SR Black with the AM BeeWax, given the level of resolution of your system.
-Charles
|
UL in the US (VDE in Germany is a very well respected organization) have drawn up standards for low-voltage fuses (e.g. UL Standard 248-x). Besides adhering to low variance in expected values like breaking range, arc time & temperature, cut-off current, every part (body, fuse dial gauge, end caps, filling material,...) must lie within well-defined specs and even the process of fabrication is scrutinized. Those standards can be purchased from UL.
We're of course talking about UL certification which is a must for consumer goods, mostly done by independent labs who got their accreditation from UL.
For those who really know what they are into (and willing to take the risk), drilling into fuses is like riding a bike w/o hands, it can be fun but not recommended if you are prudent. Sometimes I like skydiving!
Bypassing fuses is not an unknown alternative and practiced by quite a few, even (small shop) manufacturers and I know at least two of them very well. Still, I like the presence of a great fuse, IME the SQ is better.
|
Not sure how to comment on your last entry stevecham:
1. ) If I had not a limited budget, I would probably have selected something in the price range like SR Black. I have so I aim to increase the music listening experience in my HT, hence the emphasis on L+R.
BTW, in Home Theater setups, if you have noticed, people have different speakers and furthermore, if you have read up more on DIY, you would see people using different bypass caps for different drivers (in the same speaker).
2.) It is not uncommon that HT setups have one amp for the L, R, C and another for the surround channels.
This is an exercise to improve the sound in my second system, not one in statistics. |
mross1949, I am happy to learn that you tried, reaping the benefits of your experiment. Like with all cables, technological advances leads to better fuses. Too bad that others still reFUSE to try.
“A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.”
- Frank Zappa
|
Somehow this thread turns into, similar to some other threads, to the roast of GK...I wonder why...
Maybe I am not qualified to issue the above statement but I know for one that Ralph (atmasphere) is a competent designer and very knowledgeable person, truly willing to help fellow audiophiles.
Back to fuses: after retesting in different systems (DAC and power amp), I have come to conclusion that the SR Red, whilst very good and indeed way better than SR 20, HiFiTuning Premium, does not provide the best of details/texture whilst the Audio Magic Platinum (direction same as SR although I am not sure they are labeled consistently due to the hand made, lower production rate) provide nearly everything that the SR Red does but sounds with more complex texture, organic and more detailed. Vocals and strings simply sound gorgeous! |
Nonoise, thanks for the links. I just contacted PADIS in Germany and will report back.
Al, as always, I appreciate your input and great to point out to put things in proper perspective, which I always try to do at the end. The rationale for pimping my M25 is to get my home theater system closer to my main system (both have Dunlavy/Duntech speakers). Next year, when junior is out of the house, we will relocate as our property tax is very high, thereby very likely downsizing from 3 to 2 audio systems. I tried my HT system with expensive HFC cabling and it sounded terrific, but not for my wallet’s liking to keep HFC both in the main and HT system. So for the M25 I will just upgrade the 3 main channel fuses and the main fuse, the rest will get the AMR/Little Fuse upgrade. The processor gets 2 new fuses as well.
As for the best value/money, my home office setup beats all but then again, sometimes one needs a bit higher SQ. |
pc123v, the AMR aka LittleFuse has a deficit on the highs, they represent excellent value for subwoofers.
The link that nonoise provided reflects my experience with HiFiTuning, SR Red, etc. IME the best value should be the Furutech (I am in the process to check if the PADIS is an OEM version of it) or SR Red on the used market, much better than these two is the Audio Magic Platinum.
|
Look, another flatearther! |
My experience tells me differently. Before I insert after market fuses, I clean the contacts - as all contacts - if they look clean, with Gold DeoxIT, otherwise first with silver polish, then DeoxIT. I always reverse back the direction to ensure my findings are consistent.
Whenever possible, double blind tests are conducted by wrapping Teflon around the fuses. |
+1 mitch2
GK, it is unbecoming of you to nitpick on this and other threads, there are other types of therapies you could pursue. |
With all due respect for the previous posters, I did reverse an (the same) Audio Magic Platinum in my PS Audio DSD (the same F1 fuse holder on the power supply board) several times and had other listeners present: we all experienced a consistent behavior (with the same tracks): that the direction influences a.o. the soundstage. As mentioned before, I always clean the contact points (fuse holder and fuse itself) before the tests.
To complement my tests, I would suggest, for the sake of experiments, to temporarily test with the same brand with a higher breaking current (e.g. 2A instead of 1A) to see if a lower resistance of the fuse would yield a better SQ.
I applaud those who bring in new technology or devices to enhance the SQ. E.g. the Lorentz force was known since 1865 but it took until recently to see the successful productizing of magnetic audio cables. Graphene’s discovery in 1962 took less time for audiophiles to enjoy it in affordable cable form (reference to a.o. Cerious Technology). I know for sure that one of the quoted examples that the designer -as I spoke to him on many occasions- did not go about scientifically but used his curiosity, his instinct and ears.
In this crazy and interesting hobby, I have learned to go away from my EE (Electric Engineer) trained brain to become more Experimental-oriented and Empirical.
Simply enjoy the music!
[SOAP BOX ON]
Listen to your system with your ears and an open mind, not an oscilloscope and if-I-can-not-measure-it-than-I-can-not-hear-it mind! Those who stated cables matter were almost put on a stake decades ago, look where we stand now (mind you, there are still some flat earthers out there),
[SOAP BOX OFF]
BTW, as a kindly reminder, there have not been as many practical inputs on how certain fuse sound and in which direction I had hoped for when I posted this thread, but then again, given the raised temper and wild directions (pun not intended) of discussions on the other fuse thread, I did not have a very high expectation.
PADIS (=Furutech?) fuses are on their way from Germany and I will hope to share my experience. My NAD M25 is still on the workbench (caps upgrade, did I mention that caps are directional in SQ?)
|
Jim, thanks for the extract from John Curl! From the electrical point of view, a VD should not matter much. Your comments was also incorrectly interpreted by me ( Al, thanks for the small but important addition of "THAN" ), hence my thought of possibly testing same brand fuses with different breaking points/capacities.
My best guess is that the vibration control/dampening (e.g. use of special liquids, beeswax, dampening material in Bussman) is a very important determinant, as well as the metallurgical composition and treatment (cryo) of fuse / fuse filaments.
|
>> I’d like to hear from AC power cord designers/manufacturers. Do any of them test the wire they make their cords with for directionality? They can't simply be reversed by the user though, of course.
Some PC w/o shrink sleeves on plugs/IEC and thin threads like NordOst Valhalla can be tested, simply swap the ends. I may try that on my remaining Valhallas.
BTW, I am finally testing the fuse and their directions on my NAD M25 using PADIS fuses and report back if they are indeed the Furutech OEMs. |
Ralph, how should I interpret this?
>> ^^ Do you understand how power cords are wired? If you get it wrong, Bad Things happen!
Al, I appreciate your urge not to jump to conclusion but isn't experimenting that got many further? Of course, one can just leave everything alone as GK alluded to and I do so when I believe there is no or little room for tweaking.
What's next? The hearing of one differs from day to day, from mood to mood. How do you eliminate these parameters?
We are not here to proof anything but to share our experiences.
I do however agree with the settling time, be it electrical or mechanical or magnetical.
As for cleaning as mentioned many times here on this very thread, I clean every contact regularly which is easy for access but I never claim that these actions have to do with directionality. |
