Interesting. Thanks, I'll give it a shot.
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I just found this thread after Rgs commented about it in another thread. The comments that Brent passes on via word of mouth directly from Shunyata would make sense, as the first outlets will receive the most voltage and current. Then again, any devices plugged into the Hydra behind the amp in the first outlet could succumb to the voltage and current being modulated by the draw of the amp. That means the potential for greater voltage fluctuations, etc... The fact that Shunyata made the comments that they did to Brent tells me that they are aware of the design flaws within the unit itself. Rather than fix these problems, they continue to sell it as is. For the amount of money involved to produce this unit and what this unit retails for, this is just a bit ridiculous to me. Sean
Assuming the reason for plugging amps and analog gear into outlets
separate from digital gear is to eliminate digital hash in the power
supply to the analog equipment, and assuming the back filtering Venom
technology in the Hydra conditioners works as advertised to eliminate
contamination from digital hash, then plugging the amps into a separate
outlet should be unnecessary. Isn't this the reason we pay big bucks for
the Shunyata Hydra products in the first place? It seems ridiculous to
buy and use separate Hydra units to eliminate a problem the Hydras are
supposed to correct.
Gladstone, it's not about blame. It's about product claims made by the manufacturer and whether they hold up under real world use. Frankly, I tend to side with a manufacturer until the claims are proven untrue. I have yet to see any empirical evidence that Hydra conditioners don't perform as Shunyata says.
Tvad: Now you're relying on spec's, empirical evidence and manufacturer's claims? I would think that Brent's comments as passed onto him by the manufacturer of the product itself would tell you something.
So that everyone else can follow along with what i'm getting at, IF the Hydra truly weren't "current limiting", it wouldn't matter where the amp was plugged in at. That's because there would be an abundance of current and power capacity regardless of the outlet chosen and where it was located within the wiring scheme of the Hydra. Given that this comment came from Brent aka Brainwater, i have no reason to doubt the validity of it. Given the internal wiring scheme of the unit, which i provided a link to for all to see, i can understand why Shunyata would say what Brent claimed they told him.
Other than that, i agree with your comment. If a manufacturer tells you that the unit isn't current limited, it should be able to provide a steady state level of current up to the rating of the circuit breaker and wiring feeding it. Sean
Sean, there is no black and white. We agree on that account. Yes, I
prefer to rely on manufacturer claims until those claims are indisputably
proven false or incorrect. I'm not generally prone to conspiracy theory.
It's part of the innocent until proven guilty premise.
I was given the same info as Brent many months ago when I emailed
Shunyata requesting their suggested order of component installation to
my Hydra 4. IMO, just because a Shunyata representative recommends
plugging the amp closest to the IEC, and plugging the digital source
farthest down the duplex chain, it does not automatically mean the
person offering the suggestion is tacitly admitting to problems with
current limitations or transmittal of digital hash. It could simply mean
the representative, when asked the question, is offering the most logical
and optimal installation pattern regardless of those issues. Certainly, if I
were asked the question, and if I knew the Hydra didn't limit current, I'd
still suggest plugging the amp closest to the IEC and the digital source
farthest from the IEC. What the heck, might as well cover all the bases
even if they don't need to be covered, right? I consider that good
customer service, as opposed to if the representative had said,
"Oh, it doesn't really matter."
The Hydras are entirely non-current limiting to amplifiers or any other equipment up to the 20amp limit of the Carling breaker-- period. There are several studios, such as Astoria, using Hydra 2's to feed 30amp draw Neve 88 panels and various ultra-high current amplifiers (Halcros. OTL's etc).
Each duplex outlet on the Hydra has its own filter/protection network on a circuit board bolted to the outlet. This isolates each outlet from all others. We have measured results detailing the effects of a paper-shredders effect on an adjoining outlet first with no network engaged and then activated--the posted results speak for themselves--unless people think we made them up, of course. That seems to be opined a lot on net boards--"they're all liars and snake-oil peddlers"...
Ideally, amplifiers are best placed on their own dedicated line, not bunched up on a single line with all other electronics--though obviously not everyone can install multiple lines and must use only one. The reason I or another person within our company might recommend placing amps next to the power-input (if asked) is not technically to "give it more power", but just as a common-sense recommendation given proximity. I have spoken to some that prefer their amps in the digital section away from the power-inlet and vice-versa. There really are no "rules" involved, just subjective experience related to use and operation.
Nobody I am aware of or have ever heard from has experienced ANY voltage fluctuations or power problems of any kind with using Hydra models in _any_ application..and there are four-five thousand of them in circulation throughout the world.
This is all fwiw,
Tvad: If these devices aren't current limited in any way, and they offer a very high level of isolation from outlet to outlet / duplex to duplex as the manufacturer claims, it shouldn't make ANY difference what outlet a component is plugged into in terms of available power or the AC noise floor. Unlimited current capacity and complete isolation are just that. The fact that Shunyata provides no specifics for any of these categories only leaves one to speculate at how effective their products really are. Providing specifications and the methods used to obtain those results would put all of this to rest. People shouldn't have to guess or "reverse engineer" / publicly dissect their products in order try and figure such things out. Sean
PS... The only reason that i looked into the Hydra's is because several Agon members asked me to via private email and this product came up in a previous Agon thread pertaining to the use of grounded / ungrounded AC power cords. These people had no resources available to them to find out technical specifics about the product in an easy fashion, so they asked for my thoughts on the subject. In NO WAY did i go out of my way to find a product to attack / belittle. As i've mentioned before, these type of products typically don't interest me, so i don't even bother to look at them on my own.
Grant aka Samuel: My last post was entered prior to your response being posted. As such, it goes a bit beyond my last post and is in rebuttal to your last post.
"The Hydras are entirely non-current limiting to amplifiers or any other equipment up to the 20amp limit of the Carling breaker-- period."
This means that the Hydra is capable of passing a total of appr 20 amps of current divided between all of the devices connected to it in all of the outlets, not 20 amps per outlet simultaneously. As you stated in the post above, this in itself is a current limit imposed by the Carling circuit breaker that you mention. Since you also state that the max continuous current is 20 amps on your website, this device is current limiting and not by what the AC circuit feeding it is capable of.
"Each duplex outlet on the Hydra has its own filter/protection network on a circuit board bolted to the outlet. This isolates each outlet from all others. We have measured results detailing the effects of a paper-shredders effect on an adjoining outlet first with no network engaged and then activated--the posted results speak for themselves--unless people think we made them up, of course. That seems to be opined a lot on net boards--"they're all liars and snake-oil peddlers"..."
I see no such measurements or test results posted or provided as a link anywhere on the Shunyata website. I looked both in the product description, the product specifications, the technical page, etc... As requested above, can you provide any type of support / technical data for the claims made both here and on your website?
"Ideally, amplifiers are best placed on their own dedicated line, not bunched up on a single line with all other electronics--though obviously not everyone can install multiple lines and must use only one. The reason I or another person within our company might recommend placing amps next to the power-input (if asked) is not technically to "give it more power", but just as a common-sense recommendation given proximity. I have spoken to some that prefer their amps in the digital section away from the power-inlet and vice-versa. There really are no "rules" involved, just subjective experience related to use and operation."
If the product involved the detailed product development that you mentioned in another thread, wouldn't it make sense to recommend specific product placement as to where each component should be plugged into the Hydra? After all, detailed analysis in a lab would have shown what configuration provided optimum results for the uneducated end user. While these figures would be based on the law of averages, a simple disclaimer would have left Shunyata off the hook if an alternative plug configuration worked better than what was described. Wouldn't sharing that data with customers and potential customers end up in both more sales and happier customers that have already purchased this product?
"Nobody I am aware of or have ever heard from has experienced ANY voltage fluctuations or power problems of any kind with using Hydra models in _any_ application..and there are four-five thousand of them in circulation throughout the world."
You claimed that much of the cost of these units was spent on their R&D. As such, you shouldn't have to rely on customer feedback to know what the unit is capable of or what its' limitations are. That should all be available in your lab results. That's why i've asked for specifics in terms of isolation from port to port and duplex to duplex at various frequencies. Sean
Just as a side note. i compared the hydra 8 to the Sound Application products , specifically the model 12 and cfx . The 8 was very close to the cfx and 12 . There was a touch more transparency to the SA products but midbass to low bass was slightly fuller with the 8. Overall, i would have chosen either over the 8. The Reference line Stage by SA spanked the 8 , hands down. .... in my system.
You stated: "Since you also state that the max continuous current is 20 amps on your website, this device is current limiting and not by what the AC circuit feeding it is capable of."
I may have misunderstood you here...so if I did I apologize. Anyway, most duplex outlets (in most houses anyway) are rated up to 15 amperes. Moreover, most houses have 15-20 amp breakers before the outlets at the main panel which are shared by however many outlets and switches(for lighting and the like) are on that particular circuit. Which means at any given time, (AT BEST) the most current you'd have a available at a single outlet would be 15/20 amperes. So, on that sense, the Hydra is not current limiting...only because its current limit is larger than anything that should be available at the wall plug...I suppose is "non-current limiting for all practical/common purpose".
Just to step in here where i think it looks to be value added:
1) Lab test that Grant mentioned can be found at a link at the bottom of the Hydra techincal page on their website: http://www.shunyata.com/HydraScopeTests.pdf
2) Grant also does live demos of these tests up-close at audio shows - I have seen them 1st hand.
3) On a more philosophical note - much of audiophilia is not captured by science - as those who have measured two power cables will see - one cannot 'hear' the cable by looking at it on a scope. No matter how much 'lab work' is done - it all goes out the window compared to the importance of empirical field analysis.
Brb: A scope is but a single tool amongst an arsenal of test equipment. While it can be a VERY useful tool, it is also quite limited in scope.
Having said that, most all of the operating design parameters of a power cord ( or any cable for that matter ) can be easily measured / observed with the right tools. It is simply a matter of correlating those measurements with how that specific cable mates in a specific interface with other components. The more consistent the operating and electrical parameters are of the mating components, the more predictable the results.
As to the info that you linked to on Shunyata's website, that does demonstrate a portion of the info that i was asking for, albeit a very small portion. Given that Shunyata claimed that most of the money spent on this very expensive product was used for R&D, posting something like that many months after the fact hardly covers the bases. That's because there are no specific figures given so that one could produce repeatable test conditions.
On top of that, those tests could be optimized to highlight specific performance traits of their units while denigrating specific performance traits of the competing unit(s). Spectral analysis over a specified bandwidth and figure specific specifications would have been FAR more valuable. Had they gone that route, the average audiophile would be lost and they wouldn't have the pretty pictures of sine waves to look at and be amazed : )
Buy and use what you like. If it makes you happy and you think that it was worth what you paid, i guess that it is money well spent. If nothing else, you'll be helping hte economy when you decide to sell and buy something else : ) Sean
Thanks Sean , I had sort of forgotten why AG had gotten somewhat stale as of late. Good to see you back on the puter. The site has gotten sort of non technical as of late with many of the questions and comments focused on purchasing and what goes with what and so forth. I am guilty of this as my area of contribution is not of a technical nature but from a perspective of someone very passionate and driven who has bought and sold dozens and dozens of pieces of gear in an attempt to increase my learning curve from a position of atual listening experiences that I can share with no axe to grind. Its always so refreshing to get a technical viewpoint .