I think the moderator(s) want to squash the ZYX story.
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I am not sure why that other thread got de-listed but it can still be found if you do a search. As we have seen, the commercial side of audio can take some crazy twists and turns.
It is also my understanding that the atmos and 4d are exactly the same.
Salavat=Do you have an idea why moderators (supposedly) want to do so?
It may have something to do with the banner ad that is running in the analog section of the discussion group. I have had posts that I submitted to that thread that have been ignored by the moderators. No reason why what I wrote was considered off limits.
I don't know. My post was deleted. Simply, it said that ZYX must feel they can make more money by putting a retail store in between the consumer and the distributor and by charging a higher price to pay for it.
Oh, and I said it's interesting to me to see how zyx and zu fair going to a traditional retail distribution model for a product type perhaps more effectively distributed by the broker or manufacturer's mall form of distribution. To me, Mehran fits the broker model and it has worked well for him and the consumer. Jeff
Dang..I thought this is a place where we - end users - can really voice our opinions and share our own experience about products / companies with each other. I find this much more reliable than reading "professional reviews". I cant believe that the freedom for information and truth is being censored like this for the favor of money !
I never own a product of this company yet, but if this is the way they run it, i absolutely have no desire to try it out.
They cannot explain why the carts are different because they are NOT different, except for the name. They look exactly the same. They have the same specifications, and ZYX -- not the current distributor -- told Mehran they were the same. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I wrote to KT Audio directly asking for an explanation and received no response. Nor will I (or you). What can one conclude from any of this except that the carts are the same and their claims otherwise are a shameful lie? The Atmos and the 4D are the same carts with different names for different markets! If that's not the case, somebody tell me how they are different, because I haven't heard it!!
Gsparsons sums it up nicely. The Atmos and 4D ARE different - they have different prices, different looks and different names.
It seems pretty clear that current ZYX owners are not interested in buying replacements under the new pricing policy from the new distributor. I've heard the Universe and it is quite good. What I'm curious about is after Mehran's supply runs out, to which brands of cartridges are these owners going to migrate?
I think Mehran's 'truth about 4D' is less 'evidence' than 'his understanding.' I do not think it is proof. If, however, the mfr was willing to receive money to relabel one cart as another when they were not the same, that says a great deal about the company.
If anyone has listened to both, they could tell us. If they are the same, what has anyone gotten other than a moral victory? If they are different, how serious is that? I have yet to hear of anyone who has bought a 4D or an Atmos and been disappointed.
And in the end, it does not matter. The 4D still exists (for the moment). It is what it is and it costs what it costs. If anyone wanted an Atmos, you can probably still get one from Mehran. If you wanted a 4D, you might have been able to get one from Mehran before, but not anymore. However, you can get one in the US from the new distributor/dealer network. If they are different and the 4D is better, then so be it. If they are the same and more expensive - it is no different a situation than all the other carts in the line which will be more expensive.
Nice rationalization, T-bone. Moral victory? How's that when we all vote with our dollars? This issue really comes down to who one feels they can trust. I'm sure KY Audio would be very happy to sweep all of this under the carpet. The NEW Audiogon is willing to do whatever the paying advertiser demands.
T-bone...I'd call an email from ZYX explicitly saying that the two carts are the same much more 'evidence' than an 'understanding'.
As for the rest of your post....that was the most convoluted stream of rationalization I've ever read-at least, the parts I could understand.
Dan-ed...you're absolute right about where Audiogon's main interests lie. I'm surprised these posts are being allowed, though the censoring machine may be presently confused since *two* advertisers are matched against each other.
I am curious too. Nice chance for Shelter. Another hugely underrated cart (as per Arthur Salvatore website). Transfiguration. Or may Mehran would discover another magical carts?
I know a link to Mehran's website has already been posted, but here for the record are his comments from the website on the Atmos/4D controversy:
"based on my verbal and email exchanges with ZYX and Sibatech, ATMOS and 4D are the same. in fact, on dec. 10, 2007, i had requested ZYX/Sibatech to make some SORAsound 4D empty boxes and manuals for me, so i could take pictures of them as a proof that we could have 4D available to our customers if they wanted. this was mainly to address some rumors in germany that SORAsound could not get 4D and that 4D was better than atmos and UNIverse.
here you see one of SORAsound/4D pictures. relabeling my existing ATMOS inventory to 4D was going to cost me 7,000 yen per cartridge but i decided to stick with atmos, mainly because we had done some reviews of it, nakatsuka san (and me too) also thought it may be confusing to our customers, and also, because i wanted to easily identify the gray market 4D (a friend/associate of mine had unfortunately contributed to that).
a comment recently posted on audiogon, allegedly on behalf of these companies, indicates they are different. i think it is pure BULL. i simply can not imagine these words are from nakatsuka san as i still have a lot of respect for him."
I bought an Atmos from Mehran, because I trust him. I also trust that the manufacturer will honor the warranty commitments as they have promised to do. The problem I have with the statement that they are not the same cartridge, is that it was made in an effort to besmirch the reputation of a widely-respected seller here on Audiogon by claiming he was misleading his customers. That, IMO, is simply wrong.
As the Atmos and 4D are the same, it will be interesting to see how ZYX and KT Audio try to say otherwise in the future. I would challenge them to submit those two cartridges to M. Fremer for serious review - if they have the balls to do so.....maybe ZYX will now start manufacturing one of them differently in order to CREATE a difference where none existed previously. CYA
It is funny that KT and ZYX would dig this hole with the Atmos and 4D, but when you think about it, They are doing the same thing with the whole line, charging big differences for the type of windings where the actual cost differences are a few dollars. Of course the big irony is that the cheapest windings, copper, has the best reviews and followings. And as for the blue balls.... i do not need da blue balls.
I agree with you, but offer the following perspective on ZYX and other top line cartridges ...
It's true that Mehran is no longer a distributor of ZYX - other than the pricing you can get from him until he clears out his stock.
To my way of thinking, the ZYX line found a "true" equilibrium price when Mehran was distributing the line.
IOW, a Universe was realistically and competitively priced against Dynavector and Transfiguration, for example - for the performance it offered.
To my way of thinking the Universe always was a $4K cartridge, and while it's not my favorite, it is certainly one that many people whose opinion I respect consider it to be their cartridge of choice. IOW, I never hesitated to recommend it to the right person.
Thom @ Galibier
I agree with Thom.
It's difficult to buy more cartridge for $4K than the Universe. I only own 2 cartridges that are not in my line and the Universe is one of them.
Is it the end all or among the top phono cartridges available today? No, but it's a terrific component, especially at Mehran's close out price.
All of course IMO.
Ok, we have an answer to this post. See below from Mehran of Sorasound:
i received confirmation from sibatech this morning that atmos and 4D are the same...also, he wrote that ".....I corrected with KT that both are the same."
This of course makes me wonder if the letter KT Audio posted on audiogon was actually and directly written by Sibatech and ZYX as stated in the previous (deleted) audiogon thread.
please take a look at the news item on my website.