Diff in recording/reproduction in Analog/CD/SACD


Without going in to too much technical details, is it possible to discuss why analog sounds better? (Although having limited analog auditions, I think digital could come very close). Starting from how the recordings are made-old and modern, and recorded ( signal type and quality) on master tape and how the mastertape signal is transfered/reduced/upsampled? on Records/CD/SACD.

Once we go thru the original signal waveform and its transfer on records/CD/SACD, how it is being reproduced thru cartridge/laser to DA/laser to DA?

I know details are very involving but is there clear consensus that anlog has the least curruption of the original signal? Does not different cartrideges designs reproduce the signal 'differently' than the original, adding its own coloring to the signal?

Is Analog clearly the winner in the battle?

I would really like to know if there is some material out there that discusses these three different mediums.

TIA.

Nil
nilthepill

Showing 5 responses by albertporter

What your asking is difficult to answer. I am absolutely an analog guy but will try to comment without too much bias on the subject.

A dear friend of mine who worked for JVC for several years was heavily involved with the Xrcd stuff. He worked with mastering and quality control and commented to me at CES last year that the JVC digital masters, when auditioned off the studio hard drive, was the closest thing to perfect he had ever heard.

Then he followed with the comment that unfortunately it was "impossible" to move it to another digital media without severely corrupting the sound. For some reason it's fine at stage one and each transfer, save, mix or conversion to SACD, CD, diminishes the quality severely.

An example that I find strange, Alison Krauss is recorded in digital DSD and my analog pressing is absolutely wonderful, much better than I have ever heard the CD, even on fellow audio members systems that have DCS, Audio Note and such. Perhaps as my friend at JVC says, converting directly from digital to analog at the recording studio gets closer than any other way, save an analog original that's done near perfect.

This discussion can dissolve pretty quickly once we begin to discuss recording quality and what era a particular recording came from. Master tapes from the 1940 are no match for those in the 1960's even though both may be 100% analog.

Your question about cartridges is valid. All cartridges imprint their personality on the music they track, as does the turntable, the cables and even the phono preamp. However, there is little doubt that there is big differences in reproduction quality of various digital playback systems as well, as no format is flawless.

Your question "is analog clearly the winner?." My guess is the vote will be split at least 50/50 as members of the Audiogon community seem to prefer one format over the other about equally.

Perhaps the ultimate question is: What do you prefer to listen to?
Spoken like a guy who has not had a history with analog (and) digital.

The following from Digital Domain, the recording site

The Virtues of Analog Recording
Listening to a first generation 30 IPS 1/2" tape is like watching a fresh print of Star Trek at the Astor Plaza in New York. I believe that a finely-tuned 30 IPS 1/2" tape recorder is more accurate, better resolved, has better space, depth, purity of tone and transparency than many digital systems available today.

Empirical observations have shown that you need a nominal "24-bit" A/D to capture the low-level resolution of 1/2" 30 IPS. (If truth be told, the best converters only approach about 19-20 bit resolution in practice). It can also be argued that 1/2" tape has a greater bandwidth than 44.1 KHz or 48 KHz digital audio, requiring even higher sample rates to properly convert to digital.

Listening tests corroborate this. 30 IPS analog tape has usable frequency response to beyond 30 KHz and a gentle (gradual) filter rolls off the frequency response. This translates to more open, transparent sound than any 44.1 kHz/16 bit digital recording I've heard. 1/2" 30 IPS analog tape has lots of information, like high resolution 35 mm film.

16-bit 44.1 KHz digital is like low-resolution video. As higher resolution (e.g. 96 Khz/24 bit) digital formats become the standard, maybe then we'll be able to say that digital recording is better than analog. But don't be fooled by the numbers; there's still some "magic" in the coloration of analog tape that we have not yet been able to reproduce in an all-digital recording, especially for popular music forms that often crave the sound of tape saturation.

Analog tape has its own problems, but when operated within its linear range, unlike digital recording, it has never been accused of making sound "colder." However, digital recording has finally gotten good enough so that in acoustic music formats like classical and folk, some engineers are preferring digital recording's transparency over analog's warmth.

With this in mind and considering the writer is discussing 2005 technology against "antique" analog, what about the hundreds of thousands of songs recorded from 1986 to today that DID NOT have the benefit of recent digital technology?

That is, assuming the best digital is just now equal or below a master analog tape.

Analog is a very mature format. I have no doubt digital will surpass analog eventually but I don't want to listen to compromises in the meantime if an better alternative exists.

As I posted in the opening thread, It's more
What do you prefer to listen to?
Agreed,

I actually have a few 15 IPS safeties, and yes they beat the crap out of every other piece of software I have.
Eldartford, there is hiss if you turn the volume up enough between cuts and listen for it.

At maximum playback levels I can tolerate (about 95 DB, there is no noticeable noise or hiss. The tapes I have are not encoded with any type of noise reduction. In fact, several are so old they preclude that technology.

Oddly enough, those very old ones sound the best, especially "Ellington Indigo" and my Faron Young safeties which were done on tube recording gear and (likely) tube microphones at 15 or 30 IPS.

As for surface noise, I have more now that I had with my old Koetsu Rosewood, single VTL 750 amp and Sound-Lab speakers. I think the much higher efficiency of the Dali, combined with ultra response high frequencies via their ribbon, shows flaws more easily.

That being said, I can still go most of the nights listening session with maybe three or four moments where a pop or click shows up on an LP. I am crazy about music and much of my software is very old. It's a non issue on new pressings (DEAD quiet with zero clicks or noise) but old LP's such as the Louis Prima (Mono from 1959) have been in others hands far too long to have survived with zero damage.

Still, they sound wonderful and for our group, a pop or click two or three times on an LP that's nearly 50 years old is acceptable, particularly when the musicality of the LP exceeds the modern CD version.

I could still choose a few hundred LP's and listen for days on end with no noise. Those would have to be "hot rod" pressings such as Classic Records, Speaker Corner, DCC and other heavy pressings with virgin vinyl. These cost more and represent state of the art for LP reproduction. Wish they could all be this way and fortunately a good many are being repressed each month.

Shandone, That Digital BS was written by Mr. Kite!

In case you've forgotten, back in '67 The Beatles warned of an attack by digital believers and here are the words. (No need to play your turntable backwards to get the true meaning of this message)

For the benefit of Mr. Kite
there will be a show tonight on trampoline
The Hendersons will all be there
late of Pablo Fanques'fair, what a scene
Over men and horses hoops and garters
and lastly through a hogshead of real fire
In this way Mr. K will challenge the analog world

The professor Mr. K
performs his feats on Saturday at Bishopsgate
The Hendersons will dance and sing
as Mr. Kite takes digital under his wing, don't be late
Messers K. and H. assure the public
their corruption of analog will be second to none
And of course Henry the Horse dances the waltz

The band begins at ten to six
when Mr. K performs his tricks without of no real music
And Mr. H will demonstrate
ten somersets he'll undertake on solid ground
Having been some days in preparation
a splendid time is guaranteed for all
And tonight Mr. Kite is having his fill

Note, 8 lines up:
And of course Henry the Horse dances the waltz

Unknown to many, Henry the Horse will only dance to analog. Digital makes his teeth hurt so much, he kicks the other performers.