I really wanted a sub that went down to 20hrz, but was told by my audio guy my room was too small, others on this site agreed. I went with a JL audio 110 with DSP and it sounds as if all the bass is coming from my speakers, it’s like I don’t even have a sub attached, which is basically what you want to happen, seemless integration with your main speakers.
Did you ever buy too much bass?
I talk a lot about bass and integration of subwoofers in a system and I realized that I need to hear more about the experiences auidphiles have when they go buy speakers and put them in a room. Did you look at specs? Did you audition in the home? Did you end up with too little or too much bass compared to what you were expecting??
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@deadhead1000 - That was excellent advice. In your room I'm sure you are getting down to 16 Hz. :) The JL Audio DSP software is just absolutely outstanding. I'm not at all surprised, but ouch, the cost... 😂 |
First and foremost i love lower bass and i will always advocate for subs even if you have full range. That said, I bought too much bass, but it was a lesson learned but no faults to the REL Carbon Specials. My system went through many iterations and through that journey I ended up no longer using them for my 2ch. No, my current speakers didnt all of a sudden fill in the low bass void, regardless of what other foolish audiophile owners will tell you. They didnt even fix the null I had at my listening position - which I always had from day 1, but I was a bit too excited to build my system. I am also a believer in DSP but just never got around to implement it. I was alway in the mindset of buying at least two, but I eventually realized how much gain my room has - keep in mind I’m in a shared space. I have hardwood floors over concrete slab, and quite honestly the two 12s excited the room no matter how I managed to dial them in WITH THE PLACEMENT I WANTED THEM TO BE IN, they just over took the room and then always covered up the bass slap that I like around 80-100hz. There are other areas that I truly like when the subs are on, especially with vocals, yes even female vocals. But over time, my ears just picked up and fatigued. They do well with movies though! But yes, I never truly tuned for the lower frequencies as I should within the room. All about compromises. The subs will be moved. I’ll revisit bass again with a new strategy in the future. Eventually, over the course of building and adjusting/syngergizing just found a sound that I like and it started to become all about the music, and I find myself just listening to music (even though I know I’m missing information down low). |
I've never seen a subwoofer that wasn't capable of supplying way too much bass. Whenever I've tried to integrate a sub into my system I've had to run it very near the bottom of the volume range, so much so that I've considered installing a low range volume control pot to get more granular volume control. In the end I bought speakers that didn't need a sub. I still use a sub on my secondary system and it certainly could use a low range pot. I did audition SVS pro subs and they were excellent. then I decided to go with the subless speakers. SVS pro allows you to adjust the volume from your listening chair, which every sub should do. Jerry |
Subwoofers have adjustable crossovers and volume. The easiest thing to do is to set them too high. If properly adjusted, no you cannot have too much, within reason. The best bass is achieved with four subwoofers carefully placed to avoid standing waves.. this is typically mid wall on all sides… there are some great videos on the physics of this. Most important rule… if you can hear them they are way too loud. They will completely screw up the imaging and soundstage if too loud. Poorly placed they will do no good. |
I have gone through alot of subwoofers in my system and integration takes time if done right. For me to make it easier, I have used REW but I have used mostly A software called Smaart. Using the software just made easier if you know how to use it. Currently I am not using a sub since my Vandersteen 2ci has adequate bass response for the size of my room. |
I always have used subs in conjunction with crossovers, including LP for subs and HP for mains. Given level adjustments and room compensation, I can always make the subs undetectable (except for more solid bass). Recently, I added 2 more subs. After many iterations I’m highly pleased with it. The bass FR is even at the sweet spot and now at other listening spots as well. When I have guests and I take a different seat, I now hear what they are hearing. Four hefty subs would be too much for my 20 x 13 ft room without all the DSP. I use Anthem’s ARC, which required a little tweaking with my 2 JL Audio F112, but considerably more after adding two SVS SB-3000. Once I reduced the LP filter for the subs from 130 Hz to 105 Hz, the sound was excellent. HP to the mains is 65 Hz. I don’t know why ARC sets them different from one another, but with subs that rolled off quicker on top, that worked fine; once I added the SVS, which play higher, it didn’t. |
IMO people us subs for the wrong reason. I do not want my sub to add mud to the mix. I like my bass tight fast and articulate. I also like my “powered” sub to add weight in the mid range of my mix so I set the crossover very high. Think about it even all good amps can’t always add that extra power when the mix is asking for it. This is when the amp in the sub can come to the rescue lending a helping hand where the main amp is asking for it. Play around with your sub this way. I am a rock guitar heavy listener. Love me a good Gibson with distorted hummbuckers. With my sub crossed high it adds weight or balls to the guitar like a punch to my gut. This is what I like about Rel as they have great a b amps. Would love for a manufacture to try a pure class a sub amp but with needing 250 to 500 watts you would need your own nuclear generator powering your home and heat sinks the size of my suv. |
With subs the better JL audio with built in DSP - mikes is very good my brother has 2 fathom 12s very nice subs I have the Svs 4000s and with the app and DSP Mike adjust to the room nicely a good tuned sub should disappear in the room , land to others Bass becomes directional when above 80 hz . depending on the order of the speakers roll off normally under 10 db above the lowest bass of the main speaker , having 2 subs always better then 1 if of = quality to eliminate Bass nulls in the Room , and room the subs around if you-have the room ,wireless bass IHave not tried ,but others say it works ok. |
You can't buy too much subwoofer, unless you get to the point that something physically does not fit into the space you have. You can turn down a large sub and make several types of adjustments depending on your system to make it transparent, but you can never turn up a sub that is too small and underpowered. My advice is always to buy the best and largest sub that you can afford, and then be happy for a very long time. There is no such thing as "pairing" or matching, or other old wives tales applicable here, it's about the bass. So many myths and half-truths out there about subs. A sub can both supplement and support the low end of almost any system out there, no matter how 'high end" or basic the system may be. I've had the pleasure of owning a large variety of subs since about 1986 with various systems. Everything from custom-built cabinets with separate amps, to multiple subs in my main room currently. Some that have been celebrated and some that get a lot of questionable reviews. Not once have I ever said the sub doesn't belong or that I spent too much money. Always read the specs and performance details, as that is all that mostly matters. In-house demo would be great but is impractical or impossible for many people. The typical showroom is nothing like your house, so the specs tell you most of what you need to know, and after that it will be placement and adjustments for your space. You are not listening to a sub for the most part, and the adjustments and ability to blend into the system are what matters, which can be done with all of them. Just follow the advice to buy a highly rated, highly powered, and suitably large unit, or multiples. |
I've been using a sub woofer in my 2 channel stereo rig since the late ninities Most of my friends back then had never heard of using a sub in a home stereo system I currently have tower speakers with built in powered subs and two SVS Ultra 13 subs with the upgraded plate amps The subs can be controlled with the SVS app and can be tweeked from my listening position I typically have the crossover and sub volume set on the low side and the dynamics and impact is amazing! The subs just disappear! I've used Dirac to dial everything into my room Has anyone used the Anti mode 8033 automatic sub woofer equalizer? I've heard it works very good for sub woofer integration for little cost |
Over powered rooms with booming muddy midbass is quite common. IMHO, a subwoofer is best when used literally as intended....to augment the lower octave(s) and pickup where the main woofer’s output is weak A sub sounds best to me when it’s not featured. I set the low pass sub filter at it’s lowest setting, and set the gain so that it’s barely noticeable except on bass heavy passages. The sub shouldn’t be active when there’s no signal in the bottom octave or two. |
@sgreg1 What if your amp is A/AB, the mfr recommends running main speakers full-range, and the sub(s) are Class D? That being my situation I have the crossover at 31HZ and the sub volume below boom point. But have not experimented with a higher cross. Where is yours set? |
In my experience ported subs are efficient but the sound is not as accurate as with a sealed box sub. You also want hear the bass through the air than by shaking the floor. I really like my Dynaudio 18s which is sealed with dual opposed drivers 9in drivers - sounds very musical and reaches below 30hz. The opposed drivers have the benefit that zero ( I mean zero) vibration is transmitted via the floor. I think this is an excellent choice for small/medium room. I find the the best test for smooth response integration is to listen to a male spoken voice (e..g play a podcast) there should be no boominess when the voice drops through the crossover range, or shift in perceived location. At the same time time the reponse for, say, jazz bass, should be rich, uncolored and satisfying |
First is the numbers displayed and a subs crossover control are not always accurate or true. I have tested some subs with meters way back in the day that confirmed this. Now I just go by what my ears can hear and I can bet yours will hear different than mine. What I have done is turn the setting to the highest point and then turn down until I like the sound. Key is not focus on the low end but the midrange depth it adds. When adjusting the control treat like a clock and turn one hour at a time. I also have Vandersteen 2 se sig II that have a passive radiator that can deliver pretty good low end on their own. Another reason I don’t like numbers as all systems are different. Hope this helps and enjoy the music! |
@sgreg1 Appreciate the tips. I will set aside an afternoon for experimentation with suitable material that I know well (or believe I know well).
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For my mid-sized room setup was the key. I have a modest KEF LS50 Metas + a single KC62 sub. The goal was to provide some foundation and also crossing over the LS50s at a frequency that would remove the low bass burden. While my initial setup sounded pretty good I still felt there was imbalance. I went through the sub crawl and finally found a spot that was 1) not too intrusive into the room, and 2) made even acoustic stand-up bass sound like it was coming from the actual performance placement. It's amazing that even 1" of sub movement makes a difference in my room. Now I'm wondering what a second sub would add and if it would just pose more placement variables that I would have to deal with. |
Tomsch , I used to have one sub only? Like you I wonder if I will add more sub? I thought SWARM system of audiokinesis would be a phenomenal addition, unfortunately I have no more room for extra Amp nd four sub.Knowing that the modified pioneer sub are excellent? I bought a pair from a guy in UTah . Once I was able to integrate them on my system? There is no going back.The KLH model 9 did became more holographic and instruments sounded natural with weight.yes if you have room 2 or 3 or even 4 is good. |
I have several amps but one blows away anything I've ever owned or auditioned. The Mcintosh Ma6550 is unbelievable in its bass... you don't need a subwoofer with this amp at all. I have the bass turned down almost all the way when I listen to music otherwise it will blow you out of the room. If you have doubts, try one out if you can find one. |
Bass is a strange creature. I was running a small 8" sub that only went down to 40hz, but wanted more bass, so I bought another 8" sub. At the listening position, the bass was softer like I was in a vacuum, but as I walked out towards the edge or stood up, the bass was booming hard! Poor neighbors. I learned the second sub activated standing waves and nulls and achieved the opposite of what I wanted. I went to one properly positioned bigger sub and now life is good again. |
@curiousjim Your efficiency at 20Hz must have been pretty incredible. 😂 Guess you really did pressurize the room. |
Specs-wise I know my dual DIY subs pretty much through-and-through (over a year of research). The intention was hitting the targets of high efficiency as well as extension, yet without one compromising the other too severely; +100dB's of sensitivity would've meant either an impractical size factor or - with tapped horns, the principle behind my subs - that the lower knee (i.e.: tune) would've been impacted. Conversely a tune below 20-25Hz would impact efficiency and also a potentially blown-up size factor - Hoffman's Iron Law, and all that jazz. Even though the tune ended up just below 25Hz, a good compromise vs. 97dB sensitivity, we're still talking 20cf. volume per cab - not for the faint hearted. That's the price of efficiency. Capacity-wise such a subs combo could bend the doors in a domestic space if given a proper run for it, but (to me at least) gobs of capacity is really there to provide loads of headroom, not challenge structural integrity. The final implementation, actively via DSP through the whole frequency range, is still about a balanced presentation, yet with the visceral, low distortion ease and immersive quality such a subs setup can deliver. Moreover, the cleaner the bass (still provided proper implementation) the more it can, and even should be gained in level to give music the foundation it really (and ideally) needs. Naturally my mains are also high efficiency (the MF/HF horn section even very high eff.), but they were never meant to play bass below 80-90Hz being they're high-passed rather steeply here, and from the were the subs take over down to ~20Hz. I never tried them at home prior to purchase, but bought them from a cinema in Germany (they're pro cinema speakers) - initially as an experiment. At a later juncture I replaced the MF/HF horn with the large format ditto (though with the same comp. driver) meant for the same system, and as which it was originally conceived as a design in the later 80's for up to large cinema auditoriums. Thankfully it all turned out well and became a permanent addition since - the wonders of active DSP route and an excellent design to begin with. Why something this large in a home environment - certainly less eff. and size could do, right? Indeed, many ways to skin your cat, but it wouldn't be the same. Once exposed to a wholly effortless sound radiation field the height of +6ft., a point source from ~600Hz on up and a smooth radiation pattern over the cross-over frequency + subs augmentation to follow through with high eff. all the way down to their tune, it's really hard to go back to something.. less. To each their own. |
@fuzztone , not even once? |
+1 @rayd … Multiple subs allow one to turn the overall sub gain way down (reducing excursion/distortion). This typically results in the type of bass response you describe…… fun stuff! |
Lol, The funny thing was the landlords lived right below me. They knew something was going on because they could feel the base, but without their hearing aids they couldn’t figure it out. I blew a few fuses in my apartment, but what I didn’t know until later was the lights in the rest of the four family building were keeping the beat as well! Rock n Roll |
Too much bass? Absolutely. Every new car I've purchased in the past 15 years or so with "premium" sound systems (Land Rover, Lincoln, BMW, Volvo, Nissan, Toyota, VW) has had horrible, boomy bass. The H/K stereo in our current X5 seems to have less of that problem, thankfully. Oh, you meant home stereo? Nope, no bass issues with any of our three systems thanks to careful speaker placement and bass-friendly rooms. |
I have a JL Audio e110 that I’ve been unable to dial in properly in my small, treated room. No matter what I’ve done based on advice on A’Gon and from audio professionals, the sound has not been satisfying. I’ve taken it out of my system, and am happier with the sound now. I likely will sell the e110 to someone who knows what they’re doing with it. |
YES! I have too much bass. I bought Closer Acoustics OGY speakers with a REL T5x subwoofer. I dialed the sub different ways, until I found a decent compromise. So the sub blends really well on typical music where the bass isn't stupidly fast. Think Dire Straights or Michael Jackson. It's a plus in that application. The guests seemed to enjoy the sub tremendously. But the OGY has faster, cleaner bass compared to the REL. And the REL can't keep up on experimental tracks with weird bass from the likes of Panda Bear and Animal Collective. And I'm so torn because the community is like "set up your room better and play around with subwoofer adjustments and placement". And I just think that the REL is slower than my speakers, and playing with the settings drives me a bit crazy. |
hi @kokakolia - It sounds like your problem is room modes. You need a DSP before your sub to clip the peaks off, then you can integrate, and raise the volume of the sub to match your mains. My suspicion based on your symptoms is that you are compromising the volume of the sub because you have particularly hot peaks that prevent you from turning it up properly. Besides measurements and getting an EQ, consider the AM Acoustics room mode simulator. Try to keep your sub out of the first few room modes.
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@erik_squires Thanks! I have my sub in the worst spot according to your web tool. I live in a flat, so space is at a premium. I guess I could use the sub as a footrest or a low side table? I thought I could EQ with the Bluesound Node 2021, but I messed around with the app several times and I can't figure it out. My amp has basic treble and bass adjustment, but not a real EQ. |
Strongly encourage you to move the sub first. Then it’s pretty easy to view the problem using the right tools like Room EQ Wizard and a calibrated mic or OmniMic. If you don’t want to move the sub, you might try EQ route first. Measure the sub alone first, and clip the peaks. Then try to get a descending slope from 20Hz to 100 Hz or so, about 1.25 to 1.5 db/octave. Then set the crossover frequency for smoothest transition. If you had not said space was at a premium I'd suggest corner bass traps/soffit traps as great additions. Maybe your next place. :) |
Hey! Small update. I accidentally swiped left on the BluOS app for the Bluesound Node and found the audio menu! It only took me 2 years. Wow. So the crossover point for the sub (in the app) was set at 40Hz, I bumped it to 80Hz... and problem solved! So now the Node is only sending 80Hz and up towards the speakers. I notice a leaner sound, but then the sub sort of compensates for that. It's hard to say that it's life-changing however. I notice extra bass. But the speakers sounded really good on their own already. |
