Wilson and Mark Levinson...yes...5-star rating combo FWIW
Devialet for Wilson Audio Sasha 2 Speakers+1 for the Pass Labs INT-60 "if" it uses bi-polar (bjt) output devices.
As those Sasha speakers need current around 100hz @ 2ohms in conjunction with -40 degrees phase angle and bi-polars are best at doing this, not mosfets, tube or classD
I hope this helps. We were a fomer Devialet dealer and so we have a lot of experience with their products and we did have the 400 watt mono blocks.
We do not sell Wilsons we do sell quite a number of great speakers including the Kef Blades, Dali Epicon, Polymer Reserch, Paradigm and a few others.
We were searching for a reference solid state line for a few years, we had the Chord electronics with the Blades and the Chord electronics on the Blades were fantastic, we lost the line due to not making some sales quotas. We then moved to the Devilets and we found the line to be both good and bad.
The Good: non existant noise floor, great bass, great features, great senese of drive and near limitless power.
The Bad: non musical, technocolor hifi, lack of body to the sound, ultimately more impressive then musical, sounded good on some speakers not good on others, ultimately more sizzle then steak.
We then read about the T+A electronics from Germany in an Absolute Sound Review, where Allan Taffel was comparing a $19k T+A integrated amplifier to a $120,000.00 stack of CH Precision separate components and was having difficulty telling which was which. T+A PA 3000 HV and MP 3000 HV | The Absolute Sound
So we thought if this equipment was that good and was that reasonably priced then that would be an exciting line of equipment to represent.
Long story short we got the gear and it blew us away, it was as dimensional as the Chord gear,was a bit warmer in the midrange and has a similar sense of speed and articulation, it was also better made and more stylish then the Chord gear with better features and with a lower overall cost.
The T+A gear shown on our best speakers, the Polymer Audio Reserach a $68k ultimate reference loudspeaker which uses the best drivers ever made the Acuton pure Diamond tweeter and midrange, in a 300 plus pound all metal composite cabinet, with sillver internal wiring and inductors and to date we have found their components to work well with many other very high end speakers including the Paradigm Personas, and Rockports and Genesis planer speakers to name a few.
We have compared these products to many of the most expensive and exotic components and when compared the T+A usually is considered to sound nearly as good or better then most components which range in price from 2 to 5 times as much!
Check out the Positive Feedback review of the T+A HV 3100 integrated which was compared to a $45k Dagastino integrated.
" the PA 3100 HV ($21,500) quickly reminded me of my two favorite integrated amplifiers, the D'Agostino Momentum ($45,000) and Vitus RI-100 ($13,200).
"The overall tone, timbre, and performance of the PA 3100 HV fell somewhere between the Vitus and the D'Agostino. In my system, the Vitus was always very close to neutral with plenty of speed and detail along with a magnificent amount of muscle and authority in the low end. The D'Agostino was no slouch in bass performance, but what stood out for me was an additional fine layer of rich harmonics and a wonderful sense of liquidity."
The PA 3100 HV exceeded the Vitus in terms of blunt power and slam while yielding almost the same rich timbral purity of the D'Agostino. The best of both worlds? These three are so close that I would be very careful with system matching before making that final call. Needless to say, the PA 3100 HV can compete with the very best.
Previously we tried the Thrax elctronics which were excellent, the Devialet, Monos, a $40k set of CJ amplifiers, and a few others.
Another gentleman on the forums purchase a $11k T+A amplifier not from us lives in a different state, with his Sashas and is thrilled by the sound. and he compared it to the Pass and Prima Luna tube gear.
The T+A gear drove his WIlsons beautifully the $11k R Series integrated 2500r is 140 watt 8ohm, 280 4ohm and 560 watts into a 2ohm load which means the difficult impedance of a Wllson speaker will not bother this amplifier.
This is some of the most impressive gear on the market and will drive your Wilsons really well.
Right now they only have a handful of dealers as they are working on building out their dealer network, they may be hard to find right now but really worth seeking out, if you are on the East coast, please give us a call.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ.
I just read one of your other posts about budget, the $19k HV 3000 might be out of reach but boy is it good.
The R 2500 would work wonders for you, we had one on display for awhile and it was one of the most remorable integrated amplifiers we have ever had in the shop, and we were Luxman, Hegel and Esoteric dealers.
The 2500R has an engaging quality that is just fantastic it is also reasonably sized and weight, and doesn't run hot.
As we mentioned in the last post drives Wilson's really well as it can go down to 560 watts into a 2 ohm load.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
Dave and Troy. Once again---we who value this forum beg you----stop selling your gear here. Of course you think your gears are the best and you can point to opinions expressed in The Absolute sound to bolster your opinions. So can just about every other high end dealer in the U.S. who sells gear that has gotten great reviews. Let's see---that would only be about 100+ dealers selling scores of highly regarded amps. Tip to poster:
Mac will be a bit sleepy with Wilsons (I know, I've had a number of Mac Wilson combos). Pass Labs has great amps but you will need more current than the model you cited. The Rowland Continuum S2 is a fabulous bargain and should drive the Wilsons well with the right combo of current, power and musicality.
As usual Gpgr4blu you are protecting the sanctity that no one is asking you to protect.
No 100 plus dealers don't have a product that has gotten reviews like the way T+A's products consistently do, where can you find a review where they compare a $120k bunch of separates vs a $19k integrated and found them nearly the same?
Yes over the years we have all seen glowing reviews of products that get great reviews, but we have never seen reviews where the reviews are basically stating that one brand is competing with other brands a 2 to 5 times the products price, have you?
If you read the Positive Feedback review the reviewer there, Mr. Yourman finds the $21k T+A integrated is in the same very high level of performance as a $45k Dagastino Integrated.
So yes if you like paying a lot more money then CH Precision and Dagastino and Solution, makes much more sense.
We have tested T+A vs $120k Krell amp and the T+A was better, as well as comparing the T+A to MBL and many others.
Perhaps Allan Taffel and Mr. Yourman in Positive Feedback again are just imagining that this companies products are so good to compete with the best brands on the market and usually do so at a fraction of the price.
In the case of this gentleman, another poster Musicfx, purchased a T+A 2500R over the Pass labs amplifier and has mentioned on other posts that he is very thrilled at the sound and build quality of the 2500 R integrated and he has the Willson Sashas!
Perhaps you should actually read the reviews and find a dealer to listen to these products for yourself.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
Dave and Troy. Once again---we who value this forum beg you----stop selling your gear hereWhen you say "we," for whom are you speaking? I think everyone should be able to post their opinions here - within the forum's guidelines, of course. It's then up to each reader to determine the value of each contributor.
It's not for you or me to police the forums, @gpgr4blu. If you truly think a post is inappropriate, you can click the "report this" link to alert the moderators. I have found them to be quite responsive.
Thank you. We have had PM by other posters who have found our posts to be beneficial and helpful.
What is unfortunate that many audiophiles are threatened by competing products which may be better what they personally own.
In the case of this gentleman he attacks us based on not liking boss after meeting him at an audio show and being turned off by having to sit through a presentation on the merits of a particular pair of speakers.
We vet our products and test them vs many brands of gear. We are proud of the products we sell, do we sell only the best products vs all other the answer is no.
Wilson, Focal, Magico, and Rockport all make great speakers so do Paradigm, Kef, and B&W.
T+A makes great electronics so do Pass, and D'agastino, Solution, and Boulder and many, many others.
We chose T+A based on both dynamite reviews as well as personal testing.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ>
To all the people complaining when a dealer posts here. "We" is not me. I personally love to hear dealer comments on A'Gon. I find that someone who spends the whole day dealing with audio related issues would have something interesting to say. I actually seek out dealer opinions on the forums and understand there is some bias involved in their posts but I find there is a heck of a lot more bias from non-dealer posts.
I learned about T+A gear on this forum and have actually gone searching for the gear out here in the west coast. I have spoken with the T+A reps at shows and listened to the gear at LA Audiophile Society events. All because a dealer posted here and those post carried some weigh to me.
The MQA demo at the excellent LAAudio show last month was using Wilson Alexa and the HV 3100 integrated (maybe HV 3000). There are a few posts on the internet about this MQA event and the sound. I did not stick around for the MQA demo since I was not interested in the Wilsons and had some other speakers to hear. I listened to ROON software at that demo was not interested in MQA. That dealer in the past has demoed the same WIlson's with D'Agastino and Audio Research.
My next amp for a second office system is going to be one of the following to pair with the Benchmark DAC2:
Benchmark AHB2 (quieter than Devialet and my likely choice)
T+A HV 3100 (if I can afford some expensive speakers for the office)
I have no problem with Audiotroy posting, because he doesn't hide the fact that he's a dealer. I haven't purchased anything from him yet; however I've talked to him several times. I find him knowledgeable , honest, and a pleasure to have a conversation with. During our conversation he actually suggested that I keep my speakers and tweak my system to make it better. How many dealers would do that?
Guys thank you so much!
It makes us know that we are on the right track.
Yystantabarbera we would still love to host you to hear our T+A and Persona setup you would be amazed at the synergy we have created.
The dealer you heard T+A on we think hooks them up with AQ cables which are okay, and not up to their gear, Wireworld is better and Enklein cables are amazing.
We tested the famous and raved AQ Niagra 7000 power conditioner the Audio Magic Oracle just killed it. So setup is everything.
As per the OP he should try to find a way to listen to the 2500R Ricridi we know you like the Roland gear the 2500R is an even more magical sounding amplifier and drives the Wilsons really well as the amp acts like a current source for the low impedance Wilsons.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
It isn't that I just like Rowland gear, I own it, I'm familiar with it and I compared it to several amplifiers in my system. What system did you compare the 2500R to any Rowland amplifier? I'm no stuck on one manufacturer and would gladly change my electronics if I listened to something that I clearly preferred over what I currently have. The one caveat is it has to be at the same price point as my current gear.
Dave and Troy:
Usually, others join me in shouting you and Dave down from your blanket opinions about how your gear kills everything else. Perhaps they have not caught this thread yet. I will not go on at length as I have before in other threads that you invaded about you and Dave and my audiophile friends from NY who have had separate experiences with Dave at Sound By Singer and now Audio Doctor which cause them never to go back. You guys really need to get a sense of balance and nuance when comparing your gear to other brands. (Remember when you said here at Audiogon that you had Kharma speakers in house costing $100k plus and were bested by the slightly bright sounding Personas at a fraction of the cost? Did you actually listen to the Kharmas with appropriate electronics?)
I can assure you as well that none of us have any jealousy or hang ups whatsoever about what you say are "competing products which are better than [we] personally own."
In fact, we applaud and welcome them. And when we really love them, we buy them (assuming we can afford them-and we can all afford the Personas and top of the line T&A gear). My audiophile friends and I are in our 50s, 60s and 70s. We know all of the NYC and some NJ dealers on a first name basis. We have built speakers, amps and other gear; we all have decades of experience in the field (I remember when Dave started) and we all have high end systems which change frequently when we hear something that we like better than what we have. I count as one of my group a well regarded recording engineer who has engineered an album or 2 that, unfortunately, are in the "played all too frequently at Audio shows over the last 25 years" rotation. I can say, in short, that we may disagree on things as we have slightly different tastes as to what we want from our systems---(e.g.--some are solid state, some are tubes) but we all do know exaggerating blowhard salespeople when we see them.
As for the other few industry people who post here--I love to read what Ralph from Atmasphere has to say as well as Steve from Empirical or Jonathan from Lyra. They are sharp, well informed and do not seem at all intent on selling their own gear as much as informing us. Would that were so with the ever promoting Audio Doctor.
I do not say this as a put down of T&A (as I've said before--a great company that makes a very strong product which, as with all gear, carries a house sound which some love and some don't) or Paradigm, a company I also hold in high regard that has the chops and ability to compete in the high end.
Since you treat Audiogon as an open forum where you can sell your gear, I will continue to call you out so that others will be able to place your statements in context.
As again Grpblu you appoint yourself as the self appointed guardian of propriety and many people find your incessant attacks to be in bad taste and do not bring anything to the table perhaps you should rethink your approach.
Our posts have been mentioned time and time again as being informative by many readers and a few people actually purchased products based on reading our posts.
One thing you should know those people were not local to us and didn’t purchase these products from us.
Musicfx who lives in CA, purchased a T+A 2500R and loves the way it drives his Wilson Sashas. He purchased a Chord Dave and then realized that the 1/4 price T+A Dac 8 DSD sounds nearly as good.
My track record over 30 years is one of finding and promoting some of the best sounding products in the industry and our rooms at many of the regional shows are usually some of the best sounding.
Many of our setups have been the same pairings that many reviewers have gone gaga over. Johnathan Valin loved the pairing of CJ and the Scaena line array, English reviewers love ATC and Naim, Kef and Chord was another well respected combo.
However, no matter what the magazines say as the store owner, I have to find the product to be special enough to warrant paying for it and having to market it. Unlike you a store is much more committed to a brand, we have to believe in that brand in order to sell it.
I look at price, is the product a good value, is there unique technology, are the features and user experience good, will the company grow, and how does it compare to the competition.
One of your other posts you mentioned how turned off you were about listening to our Usher presentation at the 2007 NY show, where I said the $16k Ushers were an extraordinary loudspeaker for the money one that competed with much more expensive loudspeakers, did I ever say that the Usher were the best speakers ever made, no I did not, nor did I say the Ushers were better than a Focal, Wilson or other highly lauded brand, the message here was a product using state of the art drivers, priced much lower then many others speakers and this pair of speakers could easily challenge a much more expensive speaker, gee a similar message to the Paradigms a few years later.
What I find so ironic you were never commented that you hated the sound of the Ushers it was always an issue about salesmanship and presentation, not at the product.
I guess that sums up our differences in a nut shell I would not care what a presenter would say or if I was being sold to at a show or a store, I would be keyed in on the product, does it sound good, does it perform, is it a good value etc, does the person I am talking with bring up valid points, does he or she know what they are talking about and lastly does their systems or products they are advocating perform?
It seemed that most of the audiophile press later went on to say the same things about Usher their $3k BE 718 and DMD 718 monitors in the 2007 to 2010 period became one of the highest rated and most raved about monitor in that price range.
We stopped selling Usher due to a change in their distribution as well as finding less heavy other loudspeaker brands, but for the time they were really superb speakers.
What is so remarkable is how much bad advice is given on the forums by people that think they know what they are talking about.
I have seen way too many audiophile system pictures which show poorly setup, expensive rigs, and people wonder why they keep on changing out gear.
If you look at one of our showroom pictures you will see Echo buster panels, Acoustic system resonators, Shakti holographs. various power conditioners, power cables, high end racks etc. Our systems are carefully constructed and tuned.
As per my personal record at SBS as well as Innovative in all of those years i had many satisfied clients, whose systems made music.
There were very few sales people as either one of these stores that actually knew the craft of setting up a great system. I on the other had tested and came up with many of the combinations that sounded so good at the time such as the CAT,VAC,WP 5 combo usually with a CEC and EAD front end, I never trusted the gospel that the same companies products all around always sounded better.
What it keep coming down to is you don’t like a salesperson that in your mind is a passionate advocate for what they sell and what they believe in and you don’t like being "sold" good for you, all of life is buying and selling from marriage to working at your job.
If you look at my track record many of the best audiophile products sold by both of these companies was found and advocated by me based on reading and researching, VAC, BAT, Nordost, Black Diamond Racing. EAD, and many other brands over the years ended up in these stores, based on my reading and research.
As per the Kharmas I tested a $120k pair with a diamond tweeter, on the same electronics Conrad Johnson Art and Gat and a full T+A stack as well as the Thrax electronics, and just switched out speakers, so we were doing a one to one comparison.
I said the Kharmas sounded very good, I also said they weren’t worth $120k nor did they sound better then the $68k Polymer Research speakers or the Paradigm Personas.
When you are evaluating carrying such an expensive speaker you have to also put yourself into the mind of the consumer and say is this product worth that kind of money.
We also tested the Kharma DB 9 and they were excellent, and were a much better value at $30k, we just didn’t find them to outperform either the Kef Blade, the Personas or the Polymers.
My opinions come from carefully testing in the case of power conditioners we tested over the years Shunyata, Audience, Synergistic, Silver Circle, Exact Power, PS Audio, Running Springs, Audioquest and Audio Magic and Isotek.
How many stores actually keep on comparing their products?
If you actually want to talk about the merits of any line of audio products my ears and pen are open.
As per Ricridi’s question, the Roland gear is excellent. in the case of integrated amplifier vs integrated amplifier I had a customer with the Roland integrated who brought it in to the shop per my request.
The Roland was excellent but it did seem to lose some of the detail and a bit of air compared to a $6k Coda integrated amp we were comparing at the time. I liked the overall sound quality of the Roland it just didn’t blow me away compared to a 400 watt Coda integrated at $4k less.
The Coda CS ib is a gem it just doesn’t have the PRAT and same involving sound that the T+A gear does. The 2500 R just draws you into the performance in a way that you have to experience to appreciate.
Is the T+A gear better than your current Roland setup I think it would be but the real question should be would that be the right move at the current time vs upgrading cables, power conditioning, room tuning etc.
Dave store owner
Audio Doctor NJ
After being in sales for many years I see things from a different perspective. My experience allows me to respect and understand where you a coming from. Where we differ is a matter of semantics...you say "better", I say "preferred". At this level I submit "preferred" is more applicable, if not everyone would choose what is "better". There are no absolutes in Audio, only "preferences".
As always Ricred1 you are a gentleman and yes I would agree prefer is a more appropriate term, then better.
The point of all of our posts both mine and Troy's is that the T+A gear is very special and worth consideration compared to many of the uber brands such as Solution, D'agastino, Vitus, Gryphon.
My philosophy in tackling system design is to always find the areas which could be improved. You have some fantastic components, the way to finish your system is to address the areas which you can improve, which would be room tuning via acoustical paneling, and other devices and new cables perhaps also power conditioning and perhaps a better source as well as high end racks.
The Roland electronics are very good the only way to know if the T+A stuff would be better would be a one against one demo, however, you already have great electronics so that is why I wouldn't recommend that course of action.
Audio Doctor NJ
Don’t make me start on the many items you have tried to sell me and my buddies as "the best" "kills everything else" and other over the top statements about whatever you are selling at the time. Even Andy Singer, who you used to work for many years ago was a more truthful and balanced salesperson than you which is why I would always hear him out (not you) about a product before I purchased at that shop.
You actually do carry some very good products at Audio Doctor some of which are among the best in their price category. Over the top salesmanship reduces your credibility among all but the uninitiated and makes me and other audiophiles whom I know in the NY_Metro area not want to bother with you.
As to your statements about me----
Your buddy Troy continues to invade threads in which the poster asks a very specific question about a brand which he is considering only to be told by Troy that a brand you carry is unequivocally "better" and than the OP’s carefully considered choice and goes on ad infinitum about how he knows why a brand you carry is better (with all of his great experience) usually quoting a magazine reviewer who also really liked the alternative so it must be the best. And we all know how difficult it is to find enthusiastic reviews in audio magazines.
So--I am not the self appointed guardian of propriety on Audiogon. But since you and Troy are free to spread your blather about how the brands you sell are better than all others all of the time, I can set forth my opinion as to your opinion.
Now Troy’s invasion of this thread in which the OP sought opinions on Devialet was not as indirect and unsolicited as it usually is because Troy claims that you actually at one point carried that brand. Usually, Troy just comes in any door with no connection to the OP’s question at hand and starts explaining why the OP should consider what you sell. You will note that I have never objected to any posting by Troy in which the OP is asking an open question or a question about a brand you carry. But I will continue to state my opinion when he shows up uninvited and ruins the fun and enjoyment I get from reading the Audiogon forums with his aggressive salesmanship.
I recently read a thread in which the poster asked for comparisons between Audio Research and PrimaLuna gear. Look at Kevin Deal’s participation and responses in that thread. He sells PrimaLuna and so, like you, has a vested interest. But all of his comments on his gear and other gear were so fair and thoughtful that I very much enjoyed his participation and input. You guys could learn something about dealer participation by following his example.
Now a lot of things are falling into place.
Your beliefs about honesty and integrity of certain people and stores you mentioned show that you know very little about this industry.
For starters my reputation at both SBS and Innovative in the industry and amoung my customers was stellar. I don't know how I managed to rub you the wrong way but for whatever reason I appologize I however seriously feel sorry for you that you have to hide behind the forums and not even having the courtsey to introduce who you really are.
Not to mention you never had the gumption to tell me how you felt when you were at the store. A man who speaks his mind and tells other people their honest opinions, might actually affect others in a postive light or a least you might actually learn the other person's perspective.
For starters a certain store owner in a famous NY City store has a reputation for being less then caring, especially about the customer.
I will state a golden example, this man's reputation is to pick components based on price and never questioned wheather that product was worth the money, if he sensed you could afford the most expensive item vs one that was less expensive, but was 90% as good, he would never mention the less expensive option.
I found out that a Bel Canto Universal player when used with an HRS base and a Shunyata power cords sounded nearly as good as a $40k DCS stack, the Bel Canto player was $7k and with the base and cable was about $10k. So I told the store owner, what I had discovered, that the Bel Canto when properly setup sounded nearly identical to a $40k DCS stack, not only didn't he want to hear it, he dismissed it out of course.
Over the next year I sold 10 of these combos, when I told people who came in "do you want to hear an affordable combo that sounds 90% as good as a $40k DCS stack." Here is a golden example of how I talk and work, to you this is over the top salesmenship, to me this is discovery.
You will notice never did I say it sounded better nor did I say that the DCS wasn't better, what I said was here was a combo that producded very similar results for a lot less money.
Proof postive on one of their reference systems a system about $60k I did the demo time and time again, and you know what almost everyone who heard the demo thought like I did and I sold alot of these combos.
This is a golden example of me looking out for the clients and not trying to line anyone's pockets.
As I mentioned I was the guy behind the scenes advising both Andy and Elliot on what products to look at and I was the one who usually set up and tested new components in both of these stores.
As per me or Troy posting on non related forums again a forum is about an open exchange of ideas. If product X Y or Z is better or worthy of investigation it should be up to that person to make up his or her mind about the validity of the post wether or not they brought it up that is how we all learn and find out about new products and new brands.
If we go on to a post for example about another brand of eletronics and say check out T+A that person might not have ever known about this brand and that person might actually find the T+A stuff to be better suited to their needs, system, and budget.
As per your comment that I or Troy say that everything we sell is better that is blatently not true and a complete distortion. Every post that we have posted states how our products such as the T+A compare very favorably against much more expensive products such as CH Precision and Solution and D'agastino which have been stated by both the Absolute Sound, Positive Feedback and Audiostream.
In the Persona posts we have both stated that the Persona compete with many more expensive speakers never did we state they are better than X Y or Z we have stated in certain ways they can rival and perhaps outperform those other products in certain areas, that does not mean that that product is better or worse or our set of speakers is better or worse.
We have tested the Personas 9H at $35k vs the Polymer Audio Research MKX-s $68k and the Kef Blades at $32k. We have also had the Scaena line arrays here they were fantastic by the way, and we did have the $120k Kharma as well as a pair for $30k here.
As I mentioned in my other posts, I am a system setup guru and I don't just leave a system as is but rather will test different cables, power conditioners dacs etc till I tune a system to sound the way I want it to.
I have seen pictures of some of the other stores and setups that Cstooner heard the Personas in and quite frankly I would not be surprised that he wouldn't be thrilled about the sound, wrong room, wrong placement, wrong cables, wrong dac, do you think you are going to be knocked out by such a demanding set of speakers when they are not being setup carefully.
What we have said about the Personas is they are very demanding of setup and can appear bright just like a Magico or Focal can be if the setup isn't done carefully
I will stand by my reputation.
Dave, store owner
Audio Doctor NJ
I enjoy any input from sales people or owners. Of course they believe their products are the best. Dave seems like a good guy and is knowledgeable about his product. When it comes to selling a high end/high mark up product there is always a risk of people not liking the sales person. Keep posting boys.
Your comments are spot on. However I would point out one thing, this gentleman and I use that word lightly is using the forums to denigrate another member, and never brings anything to these discussions.
It is also unfortunate that he lets his personal feelings about me color his perceptions, and what is the perceived crime he is acusing me of, unbridled salesmenship. Wow I have heard of dealers who rip off clients, and knowingly sell bad or incorrrect merchandise, but no the worst crime if being an over the top believer and advocate of my products as well as having an opinion. UGH!
Audio Doctor NJ
If you in fact behave here as you claim to in your post, I will be the first to sheath my sword. I look forward to Troy (you both post under the name Audiotroy?) placing your gear in perspective on this site. I also look forward to Troy not invading threads in which opinions are requested about a specific brand that you do not sell to tell the OP that he or she should listen to gear which you carry because it is unequivocally better.
You guys are both correct that I think you carry some very good gear. I have said that over and over again. Nor do I doubt the knowledge or experience that either of you bring to the table--- although most of the dealers I know in the NYC area have similar or greater experience and don't have to talk about it here as if it were special. I have only objected to the way Audio Doctor promotes its gear here at Audiogon --often uninvited to the thread---unbridled, hyperbolic, etc.
And you are correct about the BelCanto PL1 universal player with Shunyata pc and proper support which at the time was within a hairs breath as good as the DCS stack. I came to the same conclusion through my own personal experimentation (never having heard it from you) even though I purchased the player from Sound By Singer, and years later, the pc from another dealer. I still use that player with Shunyata power cord and support for dvd-a and sacd discs.
one more chance on this.
gave another listen on some sonus faber speakers which i could not afford, and some other nice smaller dynaudio models.
each sounded dull, lifeless, flat, midrange and treble were poor.
then onto the Mcintosh, which made a complete 360 on the sound.
I then had him hook up my sunfire 600, and pretty much the same, life was coming out of those speakers, highs were flowing, and the bass was deep and tight.
i don't get why these all in 1 units are selling for so much, when they sound like a 80W Emerson boom box on such highly regarded speakers.
oh well, to each his own.
as long as your happy........
Devialet will always engender controversy. Their products are unique and some people will be drawn to their sound while others will not.
As I mentioned earlier we had the 440 on display, and in some ways they were spectacular: no noise, great dynamics, nearly unlimited power, so yes they would sound good on most speakers.
The real question for $19k a pair can you get something which is better?
So KW6 unless you had a comparable set of electronics how would you know if you could get something better?
That is exactly what happened to us, we tried the Devialet mono blocks on both the Kef Blades with mixed results and our Polymer MKX-s terrible match.
The Blades sounded pretty good on the 440s, but failed miserably to replicate the sound of our original reference rig with the Blades which were a set of Chord electronics with a EMM Labs Dac 2Xse, and of course the Chord rig was much more expensive but remember the Devialet Hype that due to their technology they could build products which were better than any competitive setup all for less money with one or two little boxes.
We ultimately parted ways with Devialet as the D130 was too expensive for many people to be considered a starter piece compared with the brilliant Naim Uniti products or the new Micromega M100 and the D 440 monos were more mechanical sounding then magical.
At that same price point you can get a T+A HV 3000 integrated with similar power 300 watts vs 400 and that amplifier is magical, and yes it will cost more as you will still need a digital source, but at the end of the day, there have been many dealers who have tried to live long term with Devialet and just couldn't ameliorate their one biggest flaw, sound lacks passion and a musicality, that draws you in and makes you want to listen longer.
In the end we found the Devialet product to be a frustrating experiment that bore little fruit, we so wanted to love their sleek shiny superbly featured sexy boxes that were so good in certain areas and failed miserably in others.
As with any audio product the end user must decide for themselves if product x y or z will work for them, what we are saying is compare and contrast to see if adding this or any product will create the synergy you are looking for.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
KW6 we were using the same room same everything and the Devialet got clobbered by the T+A gear wasn't even close that was on the KEF Blades and Polymer Audio MKXs.
Everything was the same cables, power conditioning, the only difference was we were using the Devialet built in digital vs a EMM Labs front end at the time.
The Devialet was cold, and didn't have the warmth in the midrange or the same kind of holographic sound stage.
Personally I never liked the Sim stuff at all as per lively the Devialet has great drive and great tight bass.
The biggest issue with Devialet is the lack of musicality that makes you want to turn off the system after a while.
We put out a Naim stack 250Dr amp, NAC 272 preamp and XS power supply and it is just captivating, no does not have the inky black ness nor powerful quality of the Devialet but I would want to listen to music all day on this setup, with the Devialet is is all fireworks oh ahh listen to that but never fully engrossing.
Again I would listen to Naim or T+A compared to any Devialet product.
The new Micromega isn't as quiet, nor as viscerally dynamic but its class A/B amplifier is engrossing in a way the Devialet D 130 was not and at nearly 1/2 the price.
For these and other reasons we have moved on. What is interesting to note is if you do research on the Devialet Phantom vs the new KEF LS 50 wireless you will see a lot of similarities.
Devialet is built by telecommunications engineers it is a fantastic product and is so technologically advanced. The issue with Devialet is that they are not music lovers per say they view audio as a money making enterprise and desire to be the next Apple or Sonos. Their products are wow inducing just like the Phantoms they just don't seem natural and fully satisfying in the long run.
It will remain to be seen how big they will grow vs the more old school manufacturers.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
devialet is not lively at all, i found them drab and dull, with absolutely no emotion, or jump. sure they will play loud, but the sound was just ........" just turn it off".
if you guys feel they are the bees balls, so be it, enjoy. i find them very low in sound quality.
just my opinion, I'm sure there are many who dump 10K into a car amplifier, and think its the best, if thats you..... enjoy.
As far as I know Nelson doesn't design anything with BJT outputs. I'm almost certain BJTs aren't the output devices because they don't tolerate being biased up to a full amp well at all. Beyond that, they have poor slew rates compared to FETs and he believes in high bandwidth. I'm quite sure it uses MOSFETs. I don't think he had a suitable supply of the big JFETs he likes to design with lately when the INT-60 was designed. I seriously doubt the numbers of MOSFETs in the INT-60 pose any current limitations. I'm listening to some Bassnectar through an F5 running very hot rails and no current limiting, powering a pair of Focals, and if there's some limit to the current those 4 little MOSFETs will push, I'm not FEELING it. I think this F5 is the best amp I've ever heard. If the INT-60 is anything like it, I'd snatch it right up.
Even so this sort of impedance and -phase angle load that the Sasha presents in the bass needs a lot of current to drive, and BJT’s do that better than Mosfets can.
I get it, but I have no idea where you get this idea a huge bank of FETs don't get the job done. I'm listening to an F5 I built right now and the whole reason Nelson designed it with 3 way current limiting is because those MOSFETs will switch the full power supply current in tiny fractions of a second. My Focals aren't as brutal as those Wilsons, but with a low point of 2.8 ohm and a -56° phase angle at 4 ohm, these will draw some current. This F5 drives them with absolute ease. If it struggled at all I'd be seeing serious rises in output device temperature which isn't happening. I see maybe a 5°C rise under the most taxing volume and material. I have no doubt an INT-60 would have just as easy a time with the Wilsons.
Device for device a BJT will out current a Mosfet.
Given powersupply conditions are right for both. Sure 10 complimentary pairs of Mosfets, will do a certain "current job".
But 10 complimentry pairs of BJT’s will do a far better "current job".
That is why Krell and Agostino and others use BJT’s, as they want to be able to almost double the wattage for each halving of impedance load all the way down to 2 or even 1ohm, to drive things like Sasha's and Alexia's
The MOSFETs in an F5 do nothing but swing current. They operate in common drain mode and provide no voltage gain whatsoever. There is no "almost" about them doubling current with a halving of the impedance. That's exactly what they'll do until they melt or the power supply taps out. Pass Labs claims their amps will drive any load down to a dead short, though the protection circuitry tends to kick in just below 2 ohm, but their designs are that rugged. I wouldn't try putting my F5 up to driving a dead short because it's meager single pair of outputs wouldn't handle that well at all, but something like a well built F5 Turbo V3? Yeah... That thing would definitely drive 1 ohm loads all day.
There are a number of modes you can operate a transistor in to get gain out of them. When you operate them in a mode where they amplify voltage and amperage you tend to get an amplifier that's more sensitive to a reactive load because fluctuations in the voltage also mean fluctuations in the current. Most, if not all of Pass Labs amps, operate the output stage as a source follower; all it does is provide current in support of a prior voltage gain stage.
No offence, but it doesn't sound like you have much actual working knowledge of how these devices work. I understand some people like the sound of BJT amps. There's nothing wrong with that. They're definitely different than FET amps just like tubes are different. You assertion that a FET can't swing current like a BJT can is demonstrably false though. Not only can they do it, they generally do it much better.
I never once mentioned the F5, it’s obvious that you have a thing for them, yes it is a amp designed by Nelson for diy’er to build to push current, but in this case it has very low gain and only 25w/8ohm, 40/2ohm not enough for these and speakers for the owner to get big levels from, and Nelson has never said it can drive 2ohms with a -45 degree -phase angle in the bass.
The speakers it keeps company with are at the opposite end of the Sasha/Alexia scale.
All my quotes relate to Mosfets V BJT (bi-polar) in general normal linear push/pull class-a/b linear amps.
The INT-60 is little more than an F5 Turbo in super symmetry with a buffered volume control and some protection circuitry. It's clear that you're just looking at the published specs and have no actual knowledge of the circuit. He has, in fact, said that topology will definitely do precisely what you claim it won't at Burning Amp 2016 AND in the published F5 Turbo article. I compare the two because they're quite similar. I'm tired of arguing with you. Go look up some stuff before you come here and make flat false claims about gear you have no actual knowledge of please.