Determining current flow to install "audiophile" fuses.
There are 4 fuses in my Odyssey Stratos amp. I recently returned some AMR fuses because they rolled off the highs and lows a little too much for me. Mids were excellent though. Anyway, I'm getting ready to try the Hi-Fi Tuning Classic Gold fuses, as they are on clearance now for $10/ea. Are they any good? However, I have read that they are a directional fuse? Can anyone confirm this? If that is the case, does anyone know the current flow for the Odyssey Stratos? Or, does anyone know how figure out current flow by opening up the top and looking at the circuitry?
Hmm, I can't think fuses would be directional, but I could be wrong. Certainly if they were, there would be markings showing which is way current should flow on the fuse. I have a McCormack Amp and they were very strong praising the Hifi Tuning Silver Star (also discontinued), but I think are a step up from the Gold's. There are some on Ebay being sold by Partsconnexion.
Not that difficult to figure out but guessing since you are asking you're not too knowledgeable about electronics. Likely can't tell by just popping the lid and you'd need a meter. I'm sure Odyssey will give you the orientation if you ask. Not sure on the HiFi Tuning fuses but the SR Fuses are definitely directional and the lettering on the fuse is the direction of flow; just like reading text. If you're unsure I'd do one fuse at a time to make sure you get it right, which will take some time as they need time to cook to settle in.
"I would bet that if you snuck into a "fuse-centric" audiophile’s listening room and reversed all the fuses exactly nobody would know…the fun part starts when years later you tell ’em about it."
Actually, it would be the skeptic who wouldn’t be able to hear the difference if you snuck into his room and reversed his cheap stock fuses. You know, since 50% of his cheap stock fuses are inserted in the wrong direction to begin with. Thus reversing them all would result in, you guessed it, 50% of the fuses would still be in the wrong direction. And the sound would be just as bad as it was in the first place. The fun starts.....now!
brf1,444 posts04-04-2016 7:14pmIf you can hear the difference when using "audiophile" fuses, you should be able to hear the difference between the two directions.
THAT'S right to the point.
My obsessive efforts to increase personal audible sensitivity ended unsuccessfully over a decade ago. I tried to find specific nutrition, used ear-vac to remove the wax and tons of various methods including recreational drugs until I came up with so THIS hypothetical conclusion:
There won't be any directionality if the fuse is used in an AC circuit. Its really really hard to see how such a fuse could then be used in a DC circuit and impart any directionality whatsoever. I'd love to see the explanation on that one!!
There is no explanation needed when the "audio magic" light is lit, as geoffkait (and other supposed golden eared magicians) firmly believes the skeptics put up with "bad sound" as they dare to not consume the Kool Aid hard sold to the easily duped…how bad does atmasphere's rig sound? Must not be too good if he's a "directionality denier" which is ironic as he seems to know more about this stuff than most of us.
"There won’t be any directionality if the fuse is used in an AC circuit. Its really really hard to see how such a fuse could then be used in a DC circuit and impart any directionality whatsoever. I’d love to see the explanation on that one!!"
How odd. I suspect the primary use those squirrely aftermarket fuses is actually in AC circuits. I shall send out an all-hands email of the highest urgency immediately if not sooner.
Mapman, It often happens in lands where education and learning had been replaced by training (golden ear training in particular). You can DEFINITELY make MORE money on dumb and that's the whole idea of mentally depleting population.
FWIW we have gotten good reports on some of the boutique fuses from our customers. No-one has ever asked about directionality, and all our fuse positions are AC circuits. Since AC has to go in both directions, it follows that directionality is impossible. In fact, if the fuse were in any way directional, it would heat up and fail almost instantly!
"FWIW we have gotten good reports on some of the boutique fuses from our customers. No-one has ever asked about directionality, and all our fuse positions are AC circuits. Since AC has to go in both directions, it follows that directionality is impossible. In fact, if the fuse were in any way directional, it would heat up and fail almost instantly!"
Just because you have gotten good reports from customers doesn't mean that directionality is not true. And because no one ever asked about directionality doesn’t mean it’s not true. A lot of folks are unaware of the issue. No one has said that the fuse will not work when its in the "wrong direction." That's a uh, Strawman Argument. Because many if not most aftermarket fuses incorporate a number of features such as vibration control, EMI/RFI rejection and perhaps others, directionality is NOT the only issue involved for boutique fuses. Whereas it generally is for stock fuses. Thus, aftermarket fuses inserted in the WRONG DIRECTION will usually sound BETTER than the stock fuse - even if the stock fuse happened to have been in the CORRECT position. A fuse in the wrong direction doesn’t instantly heat up and fail. Half of all ordinary stock fuses are in the wrong direction since their orientation is random. Nobody pays attention to directionality at the manufacturer side. Ooops, my bad.
Ordinary stock fuses, which are also directional, you know, due to the orientation of the "grain" of the crystal structure of the metal conductor created by pulling the wire through the final die. They do not explode if they are in the "wrong" direction, since 50% of stock fuses ARE obviously in the WRONG direction. but the sound quality IS diminished. Cats like to be stroked in the direction of their fur not against it, and porcupines like to be stroked in the direction of their quills, not against it. Lol By the same token, reversing interconnects that were inserted randomly between components will improve the sound 50% of the time for the same reason. It’s a wire directionality issue. It’s why many boutique cable manufacturers have been putting directional arrows on their cables for twenty five years. Hel-loo!
Atmasphere also wrote,
"IOW the directionality thing is a myth."
IOW the belief that the fuse is not directional is an old wives tale.
Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica we do artificial atoms right
atmasphere... "Since AC has to go in both directions, it follows that directionality is impossible."
I read somewhere that only the direction of the ac [in a fuse...or power cord for that matter] towards the business end of the component[what is heard] is of any value in directional break-in ,hence, the reason there is directionality in a fuse used in an ac circuit is because of the cycle going to... and not fro. For what its worth,it sounds plausible.
It’s why many boutique cable manufacturers have been putting directional arrows on their cables for twenty five years. Hel-loo!"
...and 25 years ago no one gave a damn about direction on signal cables ...and 25 years ago no one gave a damn about 5 cm long fuse sound quality or "upgrading" fuses ...35 years ago we had detailed instruction manual given with detailed diagrams and schematics on each component we purchased. Now they all say "don't get in or you get killed".
Evolution has reached its peak back than -- now it's indeed Devolution, degradation and retardation. Everything and everyone around you will say you're treated as idiot! The funny thing is that everyone likes it and feels happy about it thus motivating and promoting devolution. Maybe some day we'll become again Neanderthals.
Its probably a safe assumption that most people still do not care about fuse sound or wire direction. Including me for the most part.
Of course some care more. May the force be with them.
Now I must say I have some Monster Cables around still that do have arrows on them indicating which way to hook them up so I obligingly do since they took the time to say so even though I do not know why it matters. I also do that with MIT cables with network boxes that are clearly not the same on both ends.
But if a respected maker claims a directional product but neglects to clearly instruct users about the recommended orientation then that product has little credibility with me at least. You took the time to make a "directional product" but neglected to provide clear instructions on proper setup? Give me a break. I’ll find another vendor that has better attention to details that supposedly matter.
I read somewhere that only the direction of the ac [in a fuse...or power
cord for that matter] towards the business end of the component[what is
heard] is of any value in directional break-in ,hence, the reason there
is directionality in a fuse used in an ac circuit is because of the
cycle going to... and not fro. For what its worth,it sounds plausible.
There can be reasons why a cable has directionality (mostly having to do with how the shield is constructed; this has nothing to do with fuses). But this bit: "the reason there
is directionality in a fuse used in an ac circuit is because of the
cycle going to... and not fro." - is a false statement (and is false because AC does indeed go "to and fro", if it does not, its called 'DC'). Therefore its not plausible that a fuse can be directional, and anyone telling you otherwise is trying to sell something and is hoping you are gullible enough to not see the fraud.
To understand the fraud that is happening here, you first have to understand that in an AC circuit, the voltage drop across the component has to be the same in both directions. Otherwise one of two things will happen, both governed by Ohm's Law: either the component will heat up (as in the case of an electrolytic capacitor when reverse biased by half of the AC current flow; this will cause it to heat up and explode) or rectification will occur (as in the case of a power rectifier, which can conduct in one direction but not the other- this BTW is how AC is converted to DC). So if a fuse is directional (entertaining that impossibility for a moment) that means that it will have a resistance value of x in one direction (some fraction of an Ohm) and in the other direction the resistance will be x plus something more. The idea is of course ridiculous, as if this were the case, the additional voltage drop in the higher impedance direction would cause the fuse to heat up with eventual failure. This is Ohm's Law we're dealing with here- its a simple formula and can't be violated without creating a new branch of physics. So if anyone tells you that fuse direction make a difference, either they are grossly misinformed or just outright lying.
Right my understanding is the reason the Monster wires are directional as indicated is because of the shield implementation.
That's pretty much the only reason that I have read of.
My MIT wires have no indicators and I can't say if it matters or not there. Fuses are a different story. Most high end audio fuse makers seem to leave a lot to the end listener's imagination.
The original monster cable, which came with arrows indicating the direction of current flow were actually unshielded cables. They had clear jackets so you could see the (unshielded) copper right through them. So you can’t use the excuse that the directionality is a shielding issue (only). Besides, many audiophile interconnects have had arrows on them for more than 20 years. They are unshielded cables, at least many if them are. This is not to say shielded designs need to be inserted in the right direction shielding wise, but unless the manufacturer was smart enough to maintain the directionality of the conductor it’s still going to be somewhat messed up. All wire is direction. Accept the inevitable.
Geoffkait posted very inane comments relative to Atmasphere's informative technical information regarding the very basic laws of physics that apply. "just ignore the signal that goes in the opposite direction" . However that's the usual comment from someone who simply wants to argue their point. Is it the pound of lead or the pound of feathers that weighs more?
Of course the average knuckle dragger on the street doesn't care about much of anything related to high end audio. There's a lot of dismissive attitudes around, but that's not a good thing.
It's clearly visible Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica
, that you're part of brainwash equation to consider "the rest" of crowd, as I've mentioned before, idiots! No need to listen to RT -- just read your posts and everything I've said is self-evident and clear. You don't realize that most people like good sound beyond MP3 player or conventional car stereo -- even those that don't know jota about high-end wires, fuses, feet and other bunch of clap load. There's more than enough advertisement of high-end audio/video, but most of this stuff isn't affordable to average customer as it used to be. There's a large number of people that purchase and service their silver plate receivers because they almost all have schematics available and detailed user manuals AND sound GREAT no matter which direction the fuse is stuck overthere.
Excerpt from post on Steve Hoffman's website, circa 2004,
"....but two good guys I respect and know are George Cardas and Bill Low of Audioquest. Here is what Bill Low says about directionality:
"Directionality: All cables are directional, from hardware store electrical cable to the finest pure silver cables. All AudioQuest cables are marked for direction. With other cables it might be necessary to simply listen to the cables in one direction and then the other. The difference will be clear-in the correct direction the music is more relaxed, pleasant and believable. While cable directionality is not fully understood, it is clear that the molecular structure of drawn metal is not symmetrical, providing a physical explanation for the existence of directionality.""
Measure the voltage at the transformer, Theoretically, their could be more than one voltage coming off of different windings. When you find what the 1200 VAC is dropped from by the transformer, multiply that by your rated watts. This answer is the amps, or current.
Fuse directionality is not something exclusive to only high-end fuses. I found that even cheaper fuses have a preferred direction. One way to find out is to look at the cap ends with a magnifying glass. I found that the majority will have the power rating stamped on one end, and the other will usually have an assortment of symbols. Yes, I found the OEM fuses even sound better in one direction, but not the same as the high-end ones. I have the Hi-Fi Supreme fuses. Before plunging, I tried ceramic fuses of the same rating as the OEM. They sounded a bit smoother than the OEM. I simply diagrammed on a paper the direction using the cap's indicators. So far, its been consistent for each fuse. They key is, one direction will sound smoother in comparison.
Would you guys stop hallucinating that your fuses make a difference. If you are worried about it, use a slow blow. Otherwise, temporarily use a larger use. It would conduct more current than either direction as the standard fuse. If you hear a difference with the larger fuse, simply get in touch with me and I will sell you the best, green magic markered fuses ever made, complete with a balsa inserter/puller that will not warp the filament by grabbing teh glass part too hard. .
"Fuse directionality is not something exclusive to only high-end fuses. I found that even cheaper fuses have a preferred direction. One way to find out is to look at the cap ends with a magnifying glass. I found that the majority will have the power rating stamped on one end, and the other will usually have an assortment of symbols. Yes, I found the OEM fuses even sound better in one direction, but not the same as the high-end ones. I have the Hi-Fi Supreme fuses. Before plunging, I tried ceramic fuses of the same rating as the OEM. They sounded a bit smoother than the OEM. I simply diagrammed on a paper the direction using the cap's indicators. So far, its been consistent for each fuse. They key is, one direction will sound smoother in comparison."
Changing the fuse direction does changes the sound , be it the air, or tightness of the bass . It may be tinny in one direction , full in the other . Try both ways ….you’ll know which is correct . I use Padis ( Furutech) in my Wyred Dac 2, which Wyred uses in their upgrades, and AMR in my Dynaudio MC15s . I have tried the Padis in my Dyna’s , but they were too cold and revealing. The AMR had a fullness the Padis couldn’t give me . For me , it's the right mix of detail and warmth. Regardless of the non-believers, they do make a difference . Just trust your ears
Aolmrd1241 4-7-2016 9:46am EDT I read somewhere that only the direction of the ac [in a fuse...or power cord for that matter] towards the business end of the component[what is heard] is of any value in directional break-in ,hence, the reason there is directionality in a fuse used in an ac circuit is because of the cycle going to... and not fro. For what its worth,it sounds plausible.
While it is true that in the case of an AC mains connection energy is being transferred essentially in just one direction, from the outlet to the component, a fuse in that path has no way of being aware of that direction. All it has knowledge of is the current flowing through it. It is not even aware of the voltage of the AC, unless it is blown or in the process of blowing. And that current flows to and fro, as you put it, alternating its direction every 8.33 milliseconds in the USA and other countries having 60 Hz AC, and every 10 ms in countries having 50 Hz AC.
Also, upon careful reading it appears to me that the statement you referred to is an example of what is known as circular reasoning.
You really can't pose any argument or meaningful discussion with subjective opinion regarding magic fuses or any other technically questionable tweak…if somebody "feels" their hifi has an improved soundstage, instrument tonal quality, or any other improvement from a premium FUSE (!), it has to stand…among those who have had a suspicious relationship with SR fuses (seriously overblown prattle that should raise eyebrows implying a commercial connection with the manufacturer) the arguments regarding the cheapness of the product relative to other tweaks ("the BMW cost you 50 grand, why not spend $300 on valve stem caps?") is lame on it's surface. By asking potential buyers to spend hundreds or many hundreds of dollars on something costing 20 times what it should (relative to other, non precious fuses) since "you can return the item before 30 days," plays to the fact that most simply won't bother to return these things or will keep turning them around to test directionality or adding more break-in time because they really really want them to work. This desire to hear things that might not exist because you paid dearly for it, and ego driven desire to not be left out of some "extra sensitive hearing" club drive most audio silliness and distract from actually valid or perhaps useful information that keeps the hobby rolling along.
Well I guess if one is a theoretical physicist one can propose pretty much anything they want. After all it's all, you know, theoretical. Some might even buy into the theory. Funny how these things work.
Also so I feel slighted a bit in that I don't expect others won't hear something just because I didn't yet some expect most all will because they and others think they do. All that despite the fact that even the most knowledgeable EEs on this sight have clearly expressed their views which normally get a lot of traction but cannot convince some that the benefits may not be as predictable as some think. I guess the 30 day guarantee makes it safe but really how many are going to bother to return something that at worse causes no harm?
just saying. Too much hype with these fuses in any case IMHO.
Na, not hype, but a great marketing ploy to suck in the gullible, and the odds are 50% of them won't do the 30 money back thing due to the embarrassment for maybe not being able to "hear" the "magic" difference. It's called suggestive selling with a shame clause.
"Well I guess if one is a theoretical physicist one can propose pretty much anything they want. After all it’s all, you know, theoretical. Some might even buy into the theory. Funny how these things work.
Also so I feel slighted a bit in that I don’t expect others won’t hear something just because I didn’t yet some expect most all will because they and others think they do. All that despite the fact that even the most knowledgeable EEs on this sight have clearly expressed their views which normally get a lot of traction..."
Actually the whole directionality thing is probably more of a physics issue than a EE issue, which is probably why we cannot seem to get any explanations from EEs. I have been involved with the atomic physics of crystals for eons. One need look no further than my Brillaint Pebbles, the first comprehensive application of mineral crystals to high end audio and I won’t get into the paper I presented in school at the national AIAA conference on the design of a low thrust rocket engine for interplanetary travel that employed metal crystals bombarded by high energy Xenon ions to develop a net thrust from atoms sputtered from the metal surface. Ergo, for the metal conductor of cables, you know, what with the crystal lattice strictest that get deformed when the wire is drawn through the final die, and of fuses, the directionality they exhibit is acually a physics issue more than a EE one.
George’s latest input duly noted. I appreciate all the angst nevertheless, guys.