Denon DL 103 vs DL 103R

Sorry, I was saying that I may need, or want to use an additional external stage/step-up in addition to the cartridge itself. It might not be a bad idea regardless of the phono stage in my preamp. My pre does have a phono stage, which is what I'm using now, but its MM only with very low gain and I suspect I might get better results with an external unit. My current cartridge is a Sure M97XE.

So, set me straight here. Would using this cartridge require the use of both a phone stage and step-up transformer? I'm still not entirely sure what the transformer actually does.

I've also read that these cartridges can have issues with metal platers. Would that be an issue with the Thorens platter?

I had asked on a previous thread what a step-up does, and the response was that it boosts the signal to make it compatible with a MM phone stage. Couldn't I accomplish the same thing by using the cartridge with an external stage into a line input?

Well, if I were going to go with the cartridge, in the process I would make sure that I had the appropriate phono-pre/stup-up for whatever cartridge I chose. It does seem like the step-up transformers are considerably less expensive that full phone stages. Thanks for the clarifications

In any event, based on the other comments, it sounds as if the 103 might be a bit warmer and more natural sounding, and the 103R might be a bit more detailed but clinical - or audiophile - sounding. Does that sound about right? I'd like to gain a little more defined soundstage depth.

OK. Seems there's more to using this cartridge than I would have thought. Am I understanding that there are phono stages that will work directly with this cartridge? Does anyone have any suggestions for a phono stage that would work with this cartridge without a SUT? I'd like to keep my purchases to no more than two items if possible.

OK. This is getting off into stuff I know nothing about, but its a good thing you're telling me. Can you explain "compliance" a little more?

I also have a weight issue with the G707. The Shure, at 6 grams, has the counterweight spun pretty far out back. Any further and it would be bouncing off the cover when the needle reaches the dead wax. I am discovering that this arm has its limitations.

Right, sorry if that wasn't clear. As stated by Pryso, the M97xe weighs about 6 grams, with effective tracking force recommended (in the package anyway) at 1.25 - 2.0g with the brush down. I'd been running it a little heavy at about 2.75g with the brush down. I've borrowed a scale from a fellow A-Goner a couple of times to test this, as well as a setup disk for proper angle. I did the VTA visually. The problem I have with the counterweight is that in order to get the tracking force down below 2g as recommended, I have to really turn the counterweight out pretty far to the point where its hitting the cover when the needle hits the dead wax. This is why I've been running it heavy. This does seem odd though, as I don't think I've ever seen a cartridge that was lighter than 6g. I suppose it’s possible that this kit was meant to be played with the lid open, or the folks at Thorens weren’t paying attention when they selected the arm (this is a 160 Super and this is the factory installed arm). Later 707's had an additional ring weight that mounted over the main counter weight, which would be helpful here, but my particular arm doesn't have this item.

In any event, the frequency response is rated at 20 – 22,000 Hz. If I’m understanding ‘compliance’ based on the description, it sounds as though the MM stylus/magnet piece moves further and has greater flexibility, which in my mind would make it slower and les detailed because more energy was being expended in the movement itself as opposed to transmitting what’s in the grove. On the other hand, the greater movement might also able to generate greater current, thereby allowing for generally higher outputs? Just guessing.

The other problem I have if I take the tracking force down below 2g is that the tracking bounces out of the grove with almost any footfall, even with the sprung TT (the springs are in good condition and adjusted properly).

SO, I guess the question really is, given my tone arm, warts and all, what would be a good cartridge? Sounds like I’ve got to go with a low mass unit and that D103 is not my puppy.

Phew! And I though I was asking a simple question.

Yes, there must be a cross in the postings. I put one up early this morning that said, "It's enough to make you reach for a CD." It apparently never made it.

Yeah, I've been through that arm a dozen times and I've always had this same tracking force issue. I even have the cartridge set back a tad in the headshell (although still aligned) to try to compensate for he weight issue. I did re-adjust the weight again last night and am now running it at 1.75g with the brush down, which is within range. I checked the arm too. Without really jamming it, there is no play in the pivit point and this is a fixed head-shell, so I really don't know what to say about it. I may have to look into finding someone who knows something about this arm to take a look at it. It does seem odd that the weight issue would be so pronounced in such a fairly common tonearm.

I suppose its possible the scale is out of whack, but I doubt it. It seems to work fine for its owner. Its a technics SH-50P1. Its a paid to ge the stylus onto the little pin point, but otherwise it seems to be in order. Perhaps I should start a thread just on the arm, since it seems that this issue should be sorted out before addressing the type of cartridge I'm using.