Denon DL 103 modifications and re-body questions thread

I just looked at Zu Audio's website regarding their Denon 103 cartridges. They glue the cartridge to the body using an unspecified "epoxy matrix". You might try researching epoxys to see if you can find a suitable one.

I had a new white sapphire cantilever and Paratrace stylus put on mine by ESCCO in England, at the time mine was done (about three+ years ago), it cost $350, and was very well worth it. Unfortunately, there was three month+ wait until I got it back. It turned out to worth the wait and expense for me, YMMV.

Soundsmith also retips the Denon, but there is a goodly sized waiting line there as well.

I use mine with a Dynavector 501 arm, where it seems to be a very good match. I usually set the tracking at 2.25 grams, though Escco said 2.00 grams would be fine with the new cantilever/stylus (they replace the spherical tip).

Regards,
Dan  

I don't have any experience with the 103. I recently read on www.analogplanet.com where MF brought to our attention a "better" body for that cart.

 I also tried a 103 to see what the fuss was about and frankly they are not worth the expence to mod IMO. save your money and upgrade to a better cart. I know a lot of you will flame me for this but the Denon 103 is quite vailed, is boomy in the bottom end and not very detailed. I know many of the mods your talking about will help in these areas but to spend hundreds of dollars on moding it IMO is a waist of money. Just enjoy what it does well like musicality and funness (is that a word) and when the time is right upgrade to a better cart. The DL 103 is $250 to put another $300-$500 in to it wont make it sound like a $800 cart IMO. 
I'm not trying to sway you from your quest just trying to put things in perspective. I know many here think the 103 is a wonderful cart and it is a fun cart and a great buy for $250 not for $1000 with mods IMO. That said if your planning to spend much less then $200 go for it as it can only make it better for little money, anymore and i'd save the money and upgrade. 

I bought a 103r and hardwood body, cut the plastic outer body off and glued the naked guts into the hardwood body. I used Carpenter's Glue. ;-)

You should also consider getting a good step-up transformer (SUT). MC cartridges like the 103 (I have several of its variants) are low-voltage/high current devices. The best way to convert this low voltage to enough for a MM phonostage is with a SUT. This preserves the MC's low noise floor (superior to MM's) and avoids the added noise of an active stage. 

SUT's do vary in SQ! I have several, including a Denon and a Quicksilver, plus two custom-made. Had a Verion (Cotter) but stupidly sold it! The people that diss the 103 probably have never heard it (or any other LOMC) with a good transformer!

If you bought DL-103r cartridge just to invest more in retipping that awful conical stylus (or even cantilever) and then to invest even more to replace the body of a cartridge, i just don’t undestand why not just buy a good MC that does not require any additional investement at all?

It seems like you bought a cartridge first and then asking about tonearm for it ? But this particular cartridge require ONLY superheavy old-fashioned tonearm (high mass) like Fidelity-Research FR-64s and related. If you could only check Fidelity-Research cartridge  (like PMC-3 or FR-7f series)  in comparison to DL-103r then, i’m affraid, the best place for DL-103 is a recycle bin.

I agree with Chakster and Glen.  And Rob, please explain why an MC cartridge would per se have a lower "noise floor" than an MM cartridge.  I can't think of a justification for that generalization.  In fact, the facts might suggest that the opposite is the case.  It certainly would be if you use an active gain stage (rather than a SUT) to amplify the output of an MC.

My 2 cents...

I purchased a 103 from Soundsmith - with the Optimized contour line contact stylus + ruby cantilever and I am extremely happy with it - details galore and very quiet.

However - the setup is CRITICAL and you really require a mirror style protractor like the Mint Best Protractor in order achieve the precision required for this type of stylus - AND great eyesight!

I might try the elliptical stylus next time - my understanding is that you do not have to be so precise with the setup.

I did epoxy the cartridge onto a brass shim, which improved it's match to the arm and improved cartridge performance - along the lines of the aluminum headshell - cost me only $12 :-) 

see: http://image99.net/blog/files/23c020f75290d3392577113371f4dc94-38.html

I used regular clear epoxy from the hardware store and it hasn't shaken loose yet.

The 103 is one of the most tweaked cartridges out there, so I figure there must be something about them that makes people - like a guy in Italy that completely rebuilds them - to keep applying what seems like insane upgrades.

Good luck with your tweaking - Steve

Denon DL-103 series is a great opportunity for many small companies and DIYers to capitalize on so called "upgrade" of the most popular product. Some Denon owners simply go crazy with this "upgrade" and ready to spend $700+ to change their Denon 103 a bit. New cantilevers, new stylus tip, new cartridge body and so on. 

Let me ask you why do you need Denon if everything made by Denon must be replaced, refurbished by some DIYer on the bench in garage?  

Actually any cartridge can be retipped and recantilevered. Some strange dudes offering DIY wood body even for Grace cartridges.

$1k is enough to buy absolutely amazing MM or MC cartridges with the most advanced stylus/cantilever combo factory made by the best japanese cartridge manufacturers. A cartridge with much better specs, much better sound, much longer life etc. Some of them are low compliance if you need something like denon to match some heavy tonearms. 

Personally i would never buy any refurbished or retipped cartridge.
The best original cartridge is what i am looking for. 

Those tricks with cheap Denon 103 looks like someone trying to rebuild manually Ford Focus to a Porsche Carrera for the cost of Carrera.  

  

Hi guys

@chakster 
I have posed the question to consider options insofar as I have:
1. I have other cartridges: AT OC7; Shelter 501; Transfiguration Temper V; Pickering XSV 4000
2. I have a few arms: Moerch DP6; Fidelity Research FR64; Helius Omega; EMT 929; Sony PUA9; Jelco 250ST
3. I have a few turntables: Amazon Model One; SONY TTS8000; JVC TT101; Townshend Elite Rock

Part of this thread is for direct advice for myself, but also with a view to assisting other's that have the DL103 and are considering mods.

As an adopted 'Essex boy' (those in the UK would understand the joke) I like the idea of adding go faster lines, a turbo, and a big wing to my Ford - I don't expect it to become a Porsche - which I thankfully have ;) (in terms of cartridges that is)

What is interesting about the Denon is that that close up - the actual motor unit is very well constructed with good channel balance - it may well explain why people like to 'soup it up'. I am not sure if people buy them and immediately change the stylus - it might be something to consider when the old stylus needs replacing - at which point it is probably not a waste of money.

Some of us are new to vinyl, or returned after many years away from it. Myself, I was lured into the D-103R after reading Art Dudley's review of the Zu Denon. Then, I found out about the ESCCO mods here on A'gon.

Sometimes when your experience is limited, and the choices are many, we just do the best we can. My Zu-ESCCO 103R is a great cartridge for me, I am very happy with it. It out performs my Dynavector XX2MKII, which is quite a nice-sounding cartridge too.

I guess I should just ask questions instead of answer them, though I have learned a great deal, with the help of many fine, knowledgeable members of A'gon, and for that, I am thankful. I will state though, my largely DIY system would put many sky-is-the-limit systems to shame.

Flame on, my brothers!

Dan 

I ran modified Denon 103R's for close to five years and moved on to other cartridges about 3-4 years ago. 

The Denon generator is indeed very good. The weak spots in the cartridge are the body and cantilever/stylus.

I ended up running 103R's in both aluminum and ebony bodies; I had Peter L at Soundsmith epoxy both of them into the bodies-there should be information online about safely doing so, although one has to be careful doing this.

Alternatively, one can use a very small amount of acetone to secure the top of the cartridge after the body has been removed into any of the friction fit bodies without actually "potting" the cartridge with epoxy into the body.

I ran an aluminum body with Soundsmith's standard ruby cantilever and line contact stylus and an ebony body with Peter's OCL stylus (also on ruby).

Retipping costs have unfortunately risen with cartridge prices in the past 5-6 years. I remember the first retip I did with Soundsmith was $250. Now you're looking at $350-$400 for those options and $450 for boron. The $300 sapphire option appears to be Peter's high value option at this time I would say.

Aluminum bodies are cheap-you can often pick them up on Ebay for $50-$60 and they make the most sense (and sound very good) as compared to the usually more expensive wood bodies.

So you can do a stock 103 in an aluminum body pretty inexpensively (probably around $300 if you shop), then run it for 800-1000 hours and retip it if you like. 

At $300, if you have the right arm and phono preamp, the cartridge will offer a lot of value and while it may not be perfect (what is for $300 anymore?) it will do a lot of things right and will be a pretty enjoyable cartridge to listen to. Errors of omission kind of stuff. 

Even with higher retipping costs, now that cartridge prices have gone through the roof, a retipped 103 or 103R with a better stylus profile/cantilever in an aluminum body will hold its own with most sub $1000 cartridges. It will not be perfect, but I can't think of anything that is in that price range anyway, and it will have a character that is somewhat unique and very likeable if partnered carefully. 

And you'll have had the opportunity to listen pretty extensively to the cartridge to see if you like its strengths before having to decide on whether or not to put more money into it in the form of a retip.

But both the body and a good retip significantly improve the cartridge. The body is the higher value proposition because of its lower cost but improvements from the stylus/cantilever really elevate the performance as well. 

metal and or ceramic filled epoxies

https://www.stereophile.com/content/listening-176-musikraft-cartridge-bodies-emia-phono-transformer

lewm6,481 posts
11-30-2018 5:20am
I agree with Chakster and Glen. And Rob, please explain why an MC cartridge would per se have a lower "noise floor" than an MM cartridge. I can't think of a justification for that generalization. In fact, the facts might suggest that the opposite is the case. It certainly would be if you use an active gain stage (rather than a SUT) to amplify the output of an MC.

Moving coils generated more current and less voltage than MM's. Higher current from cartridge to 1st amplifying device means better noise rejection. Basic physics.

I agree that if you use a step up transformer which converts high current/low voltage to high voltage/low current then you increase the risk of noise intrusion ( rf etc ) between the transformer and phono. Thats why interconnects after a step up transformer should be as short and as well shielded as possible.

Best to use active gain for MC's in my view as you suggest.

My experience with the Denon 103 that I had rebuilt by the original Garrott Bros with a composite boron/aluminium cantilever and Weinz Parabolic diamond was positive.
Although the resolution was not as high as my Koetsu Black Goldline, and far removed from my Dynavector Nova 13D & Ikeda Kiwame, the performance was very musical and with the Eminent Technology ET2 (modded) was very coherent. In terms of coherency it betters many more expensive cartridges, but not so much in resolution.
From my recollection the pole layout is responsible for the big wide albeit slightly foreshortened soundstage.   

@lohanimal 

As an adopted 'Essex boy' (those in the UK would understand the joke) I like the idea of adding go faster lines, a turbo, and a big wing to my Ford - I don't expect it to become a Porsche - which I thankfully have ;) (in terms of cartridges that is)  

LOL! I like the idea of modding Lambretta scooter like that too 

P.S. Who fixed yout JVC TT-101? I've asked one JVC repair center in UK, they said they can do that.  

@dover : Thank you for your cogent explanation! My first encounter with a 103 was on a TOTL Denon DD TT with the 307 arm (1976). A Levinson JC-1 clone was used as a pre-preamp. SQ was phenomenal considering that this was a venerable cartridge design (1962) with a spherical stylus! 

Dover, You wrote, "Moving coils generated more current and less voltage than MM's. Higher current from cartridge to 1st amplifying device means better noise rejection. Basic physics."

I agree with you on the issue of SUT vs active gain stage; I prefer the latter (not sure I mentioned that explicitly in my first post, but the message seems to have gotten across). I am well aware of the V/I difference between MM and MC cartridges, but I am not aware of any "basic physics" that would suggest that MC cartridges innately have a lower noise floor based on their ability to produce current, compared to MM types. In order for the listener to sense the noise, the phono stage has to be driven by the cartridge.  (Obviously, you know that.) Almost all the phono stages that provide sufficient gain for LOMC cartridges are voltage-driven. Ergo, where is the advantage for the MC cartridge in terms of its capacity to make current?  There are a very few "current-driven" phono stages designed exclusively for LOMCs with very low internal resistance.  Perhaps if one is using one of those phono stages, the LOMC would have a noise advantage.  But of course, those few phono stages absolutely cannot be driven properly by MM cartridges in the first place.  I may be missing your point, so feel free to rebut.

Lohanimal, It sounds like you are not scraping up the money to mod your DL103R.  In which case, since you're just having fun, I say have at it.   If it were I, I would go for a wood body and a new cantilever/stylus. I have an ancient DL103 with no cantilever or stylus.  I bought it new probably in the 70s.  Every once in a while I think maybe I should send it off for repair, but.....nah.  I've got other more interesting broken cartridges that I would repair first.

@lewm 
Lew,
It's difficult to quantify what translates into what we can hear - but the lower internal impedance of most moving coils would suggest lower susceptibility to picking up extraneous noise.
The real point of my post is that the higher current drive of a LOMC definitely rejects noise better in the transmission through the phono cable. This I can hear and measure - I have buckets of cables that whilst picking up noise when used between MM and phono or SUT to phono, are absolutely dead quiet when used directly between MC's & phono in the same system.
Beyond that it is well to remember that the cartridge/phono cable/phono input is a tuned circuit, and as such anything is possible. A good example is my original modded Marantz 7 can easily amplify MC's from about 0.25mv up, but the Denon 103 produces no sound whatsoever, absolutely nothing. The only cartridge I've had this phenomena with in 30 years. Even with access to an ex NASA radio engineer familiar with tube circuits he is unable to explain that one.      

@lewm : Read Mitchell Cotter's article in The Audio Critic (circa '77) where he lays out the case for the superiority of MC's and the SUT/active stage controversy. I owned his Verion P transformer and used it for years with the GAS Sleeping Beauty elliptical. Arm was a Lustre GST-1 (Koshin/Jelco) on an Ariston RD-11S.

LOL! I like the idea of modding Lambretta scooter like that too

Hey- I had a TV175 - bored out to 225cc and had go faster green metallic and white paintwork with a tuned (read loud) exhaust and chrome backrest - oh, and a 6ft whip antenna !

Compared to today’s machines It went like a cow with a tailwind :-)

Moving on... I found the Soundsmith modified 103 to be a fine cartridge for a reasonable price - mine cost me around $600.

To tweak or not to tweak is a personal approach and may affect resale value (depending on the buyer)

Personally I do not buy resale carts of any kind.

Because as Forest gump said...

"Life was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you’re gonna get."

@chakster Many Thanks for the Lambretta comment - memories came flooding back :-)

Cheers

Interesting discussion.  High impedance circuits are more susceptible to noise caused by oscillation, I do know that.  I would not have thought that the difference in Z between an MM "circuit" and a LOMC one would make much difference to noise generation.

Rob, Mitch Cotter or any other guru can write a book on the subject, but in the end we all have to use our ears.  If he came down in favor of SUTs, then one can cite other "authorities" of similar stature who come down on the other side. Anyway, I was more talking about "noise" in response to Dover's assertion.

An alternative is an aluminum body cap. It slides over the stock body, bolts on, and can be removed and re-used. It's a much less expensive option than many options listed above.

https://www.denonaluminumbody.com

First of alI I really appreciate the responses on this thread, as it has answered my own query, but I believe it will benefit many others.

In terms of myself - I am gonna get a generic aluminium body for now if things get better - I will take it from there. I always consider value in the context of the price of other carts and I have a hankering for a Benz LP - which is probably far better putting my money towards (a different thread and topic).

I like the idea of an everyday workaday cartridge that I am not going to have a nervous breakdown over in the event of damage. Not only that but I sometimes find that, as with music, its sometimes better to hear something easy and inviting before going and listening to the detail once my ears tune in. 

I know many say that Denon ought to make the 103 with a better body, but arguably, its absence off such a better body may well be helping to drive sales - how? The likes of 'Zu' have helped put thee 103 back on the map so to speak (I would not have considered a 103 had it not been for potential mods). The plastic body has created a mini tweakers industry.

Out of interest - how about any responses about which new body to buy?

1. Zu
2. Muskraft
3. Audiotechne
4. Basic generic
5. ... others...?

btw - without wishing to put any noses out of joint @hdm wrote a superb post

I think you have done the right thing buying the generic. The one I would recommend would still be available at $42 U.S. on ebay. Very slightly different than the one I used in the past but these bodies are all CNC machined and very similar in mass-they will typically weigh about 7 grams. 

I was experimenting with re-bodying the Denon even before Zu brought their cartridges to market. To a certain extent I think the proliferation of bodies at higher and higher prices is kind of a "cashing in"/jumping on the bandwagon on the popularity of modding the Denons and the prices have followed the general trend in audio and cartridge prices over the past few years.

They are more "bling"-that's for sure but I really doubt there would be significant audible differences between most of these bodies (although I do think they will all significantly outperform any of the "caps" and similar items which leave the existing plastic body in place and simply wrap around it).

The Musikcraft seems like silly money to me and at that price one definitely has to ask the question of simply spending more money on another cartridge initially. The "tuneability" seems gimmicky to me.

So unless you are totally hung up on the appearance of a cartridge, I'd stick with the generic and put the savings toward a retip at a later date after you've run the cartridge for a bit and decided on whether or not that is an option you'd want to pursue. 

Nobody willing to change a body of any other cartridge for some reason.

There are many old and new amazing MC cartridges with plastic body. 

Why DL-103 stock plastic body should be replaced and what is the effect? 

Chakster, The DL103 is the particular pet cartridge, especially among US aficionados, for those who dream of getting a lot for a little.  (Who doesn't dream of that?)  You can find endless threads on Vinyl Asylum devoted to the DL103 and 103R, many of which discuss these various aftermarket bodies for the cartridge. (In fact, lohanimal ought to do a search on VA.)  On VA you can find extravagant claims for the wonderfulness of the DL103. So, I think that's why it gets a lot of attention. 

Moreover, there is some justification for the notion that the DL103 might be a "bargain".  Big companies, like Denon and Audio Technica, can often produce a better cartridge at a lower cost, compared to the smaller companies that specialize in the high end.  However, to be clear, I am not one of its disciples.

https://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/Phono-Cartridge/Uwe-s-Wood-Body-Denon-103-103R/Ebony-Wood-Body/vinyl/69/694577.html

I wrote that review in 2007. Used a Uwe ebony body, a generic aluminum body and another body in clavellin from Uwe. Found the ebony and aluminum to sound pretty similar. The ebony was perhaps just a touch warmer, the aluminum a bit more dynamic. 

Did not like the clavellin. Found it to be a bit thin and tipped up compared to the other two. So different woods will sound quite different. It should be noted that there are different types of ebony and an ebony from one wood body seller might be considerably different from another. Aluminum is aluminum. 

The other advantage of aluminum is that there is no chance of stripping the mounting holes, which is what happened to my ebony body after a number of years of use/dismounting & remounting. 

Do not use any body where the nude 103 simply slides in. The body and the ‘guts’ need to be properly adhered to each other like the Zu potting technique. The aluminum body cap works wonders because it is bolted through the body and the tone arm.