Denon DA 307 and DA 309


Hi, anyone know the effective mass of these tonearms?

Cheers
5ed5fc58 d40a 43d9 b2b3 03a36060b7e2best-groove
Here ya go!
Specifications:
Brand : DENON
Model : DA-307
Color : Silver
Effective Length: 244 mm
Overhang: 14 mm
Offset Angle: 20.7°
Pivot to Spindle: 230 mm
Cartridge Range: 5-10 g
Effective Mass: 12g
VTA Adjustment: Yes
Headshell: PCL-5 (6g)
Null Points: 57.9 / 114.6 mm
Phono Cable: DIN 5 Pin
@@yogiboy many thanks for the precious informations. :)


Instead, is the effective mass the 309 are similar to 307 in your knowledge?


You’re welcome. I can’t find any information about the 309. Most likely it is the same!
 http://www.audioinvest.no/denon/products/ta_309.htm
@yogiboy 

Perhaps the only difference is that the 309 has an overweight to add to the counterweight to balance heavy cartridges 

I have a 307. I have used it successfully with the Denon 103 mc cartridges. An excellent arm!
Post removed 
@roberjerman

This is a too easy match, but would an Ortofon MC 30 or a Nakamichi MC 1000 or a Sony XL 55 Pro, or a Denon DL 304 or a more recent cartridge, for example Ortofon MC 20 Supreme, be fine anyway?
Just mounted a Denon DA-307 on a Luxman PD-444The DA-307 VTA / tonearm height must be adjusted as it is almost leveled with the PD-444 platter, is the tonearm height adjusted with the 2 tiny screws on the tonearm silver base? just loosen the screws and raise the tonearm and affix the screws again? my first thought was using a washer to raise the tonearm base but obviously the screws seems like the right choice although very tiny. I guess the tonearm is so light that those screws should hold it in place. If anyone could confirm that would be great. Thanks
Use the screws @luisma31
DA-401 is much better tonearm BTW, but i think the mounting style is the same, look at my Denon on PD-444
Thank you, I will use the 2 little screws then, thanks for the tip on the DA-401. Remember I am learning that's why I wanted to start with simple tonearms and do the entire setup from the scratch. I am not the one that likes easy things or someone to do the setup for me (like millercarbon mentioned in some other thread) :) it takes a lot of time though when you are inexperienced but here in Audiogon with you @chakster and others I have learned so much.
BTW your custom made racks are very nice, they look solid, stainless steel? or aluminum?
your custom made racks are very nice, they look solid, stainless steel? or aluminum?


thanks, it's steel filled with sand, painted
Use the 2 little screws and drive yourself nuts trying to find the exact correct height, hold the vertical shaft at that exact point in space, and tighten the two little screws, all at the same time.  Easy for anyone with three hands.  Which is why tonearms with adjustable VTA towers were such a godsend. Ask wife or close friend to help.  IMO, the DA307 is a bit low in effective mass to get the best out of the Denon DL103 or any of its relatives, unless you ditch the headshell in favor of a heavier one.
Hahaha yeah, analog is a lot of work, I can understand why some avoid it. I have a few carts and I am doing some compliance calculations and such.
Use the 2 little screws and drive yourself nuts
@lewm definitely VTA on the fly is such a great thing
Denon DL103 or any of its relatives
Planning to try with the DL-301II, it is mounted on an LP Gear Zupreme, heavy headshell, total mass is around 15g and it almost offsets the DA307 counterweight, I have it all the way back at 2g tracking force,
This is a lot of work to get it right. Adjusting the VTA I tried following Mikey’s guide here:https://www.analogplanet.com/content/how-use-usb-digital-microscope-set-92-degree-stylus-rake-angle-...The microscope which I have I can’t get it flushed to the platter, I made all the adjustments with the Hifi News protractor and the DA-307 mounting template to adjust overhang and spindle location, very easy moving the armboard on the Luxman left and right, I am pretty sure there are a lot of improvements I could do but this is work in progress.Hardest part is getting a work bench adequate with light without my wife complaining that I have too much crap  all over the place.Then finding a rack, extra one, putting it in the living room without my wife complaining I have too many things all over the place and why I don’t go back to the times I stream music from my phone to my little integrated with my Elac’s B5, not that there is anything wrong with the Elacs.I think I need a bigger houseAnd I need a divorce as welland some money to buy more stuffNow she called me that it would be nice to go out, so I have to leave the TT and the tonearm half set and continue tomorrow because I need to get going
I hope the lines above will cheer some of you up, and perhaps you could relate too :)Oh some photos ....By the way the arm lift doesn’t have too much displacement, very short compared to others.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/m6j01m72nt9v5tl/AADVZPzl_uly7MJldNR_nT9la?dl=0
Thanks Lew


the DA 401 is an arm dedicated to light cartridges therefore only moving magnet.
How much does your DA 307 swing?

I did a test after taking it to the laboratory for a review, this and all that can fluctuate .... it seems to me to be a bit a little but not is possible improve.
I would like confirmation if your DA 307 also oscillates so little.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F42OYnqevoc
the DA 401 is an arm dedicated to light cartridges therefore only moving magnet.


No, look at this Denon catalog, this is DA-401 tonearm with MC cartridge DL-303

This tonearm goes with two different counterweights for MM or MC and can be used with both types of cartridges.

Here you will find it with classic DL-103 series (higher compliance version for sure). 
This tonearm goes with two different counterweights for MM or MC and can be used with both types of cartridges.
better this way
I would like confirmation if your DA 307 also oscillates so little.
Not my case, mine oscillates more than the one in the video, go to my link and watch the video https://www.dropbox.com/sh/m6j01m72nt9v5tl/AADVZPzl_uly7MJldNR_nT9la?dl=0



@luisma31 many thanks ... I will show your video to the lab for them to double check my 307 which does not persuade me a good job is done.

Does it have any movement in the horizontal bearings or is it fixed well?
Has your tonearm ever been overhauled?
Just noticed your response, seems I wasn't following the thread.

There is no horizontal movement, if you engage the antiskate yes it moves outwards as it should, the tonearm hasn't been overhauled.

As a matter of fact I'm a little disappointed, the initial test and sound wasn't anything good, I think the Zupreme headshell with the DL302-II is too heavy for this arm so I will be getting a lighter headshell and MM cart and will try it.
My former Technics SL 1210 mk5 sounded better, but I'm sure it is the lack of experience setting up everything so I'm not quitting.

I have been thinking that the combo of the Zupreme headshell 12g + DL-301II 6g for total 18g might not be the best for the DA-307.
The DA-307 could accept carts from 5 - 10g so it seems the DL-301II could be a possible one to use, the original headshell PCL-5 weights 6g, half of the Zupreme I am using. I don't have any HS close to 6g except for a Yamamoto HS-4S which at 10.7 g is close to the Zupreme. I also have a Grace HS-3 which at 8g could be a good match as well.
But I have a Pickering 3000SP which is seems to be just under 18g, maybe 16 or so with headshell, will this be a good match or would it be better to use the Denon cart with a lower weight headshell?
@lewm you were right about having fun setting up this tonearm.1. Measure 230mm P2S2. Figure out 14mm overhang from spindle to stylus3. Align the cantilever with the lines on the protractor4. Adjust the VTF
5. Then after all this try to figure out the proper VTA
Analog is a lot of work ..... I hope with the Pickering I get better results.
After installing the 3000SP with headshell provided courtesy of @chakster
1. Readjusted P2S which wasn't properly setup the 1st time to 230 mm.
2. Move back the cart a little on the HS to match 14mm overhang
3. Measured VTA, it is at 89 degrees, I need to readjust but it is late, will do it tomorrow.4. Adjusted VTF to 1gr
Sounds completely different than with the DL302-II, much much better, playing stairway to heaven from modern not so great pressing, imaging and sound stage is very good, it has the coherence my very good digital lacks playing rock, highs a little rolled off but I'm not doing any loading and I'm using a DIN to male RCA cable + female RCA to XLR adapter cable, tracking with 1g is perfect.

Still need to double check using the hifi news LP

All in all for the money I am very satisfied with the DA-307 and with my starter analog rig, I was on the brink to put it aside again.



After installing the 3000SP with headshell provided courtesy of @chakster

Sounds completely different than with the DL302-II, much much better, playing stairway to heaven from modern not so great pressing, imaging and sound stage is very good, it has the coherence my very good digital lacks playing rock, highs a little rolled off but I'm not doing any loading...


That Pickering XSV/3000SP is great, glad you like it.

Load it at 100k and you will hear the highs and air you're looking for. 

Higher models of Pickering are more refined. 

The trick is to set up the VTF right with the brush
If you're using your Pickering with the brush then tracking force must be 1g higher, because the actual tracking force on the stylus will be 1g less because of the brush.

Recommended tracking force for XSV/3000SP is 2g !
You have to set tracking force at 3g with the brush to get desired 2g on the stylus @luisma31



The trick is to set up the VTF right with the brush.
Correct, I'm not using the brush, it makes the stylus contact more complex and I wanted to initially try without it, planning on adding it later on.
If you're using your Pickering with the brush then tracking force must be 1g higher, 
Thanks for the tip
Recommended tracking force for XSV/3000SP is 2g !
You have to set tracking force at 3g with the brush to get desired 2g on the stylus @luisma31
 So the XSV3000 is 1g but the SP is 2g? (without the brush)






Yes, the difference between XSV/3000 and XSV/3000-SP is compliance, the SP is lower compliance 15cu vs. 30cu for XSV/3000. So the tracking force is higher for SP version (2g is recommended, read the manual). 
VTF is not always or necessarily inversely proportional to compliance, but in this case I guess it is, if Chak says so. Also, historically many users removed those brushes from the Pickering and Stanton cartridges prior to use. If you consult the Internet you might find out why they did that. I really don’t remember myself. But I do own several of the exotic Pickering and Stanton cartridges, and I do remove the brush when I use them. For me, it just removes a level of complication and uncertainty that I would rather not deal with. When I mentioned the difficulty of setting the VTA with a tonearm that requires set screws on the vertical shaft to hold and secure the VTA, I was only referring to the fact that you somehow have to find the correct setting and hold the tonearm exactly at that height while also tightening the set screws. I remember when I purchased my Triplanar tonearm probably in the late 80s or early 90s, what a godsend that was for setting VTA.
luisma31
... Measured VTA, it is at 89 degrees, I need to readjust ...
Hmmm, something is not right. You are probably measuring the wrong thing - VTA should be somewhere around 20 degrees.

VTA/SRA is properly explained here.
I use all Stanton and Pickering with brush and all of them are fine and the sound is fantastic with recommended settings of VTA w/ brush. 
To brush or not to brush is an interesting and debatable question.  I elect not to use the brush, but I have no firm philosophy in mind except I am averse to attachments that could do harm as well as good.  One logical objection to the brush, that I have read elsewhere so it is not my idea, is that the brush "rattles" in the stylus mount assembly, which does not seem like something you want to happen so close to the contact between stylus in groove, which you want to be minutely sensitive.  In fact, the mounting is not damped, which would have been a good idea. But I wouldn't argue with anyone who likes to use the brush.  It used to be a common source of discussion, back in the good old days when these excellent cartridges were available and in vogue.
I always do what the manufacturer recommends first and use my gear according to that. Mr. Walter Stanton explained very well why there is a brush on his cartridges, some people are happy using fluid dampers instead (not every cartridge have a brush like Stanton/Pickering).
chakster
I use all Stanton and Pickering with brush and all of them are fine and the sound is fantastic with recommended settings of VTA w/ brush.
These brushes and "dynamic stabilizers" should not affect VTA. Perhaps @chakster had a "senior moment" and meant to say VTF.
Yeah, only tracking force, sorry 
Hmmm, something is not right

Thank you @cleeds you are correct, my bad, I was mistakenly naming VTA to SRA

DA-401 is much better tonearm BTW
The Denon DP-80 that I bought recently is with DA-401, but I did not know that the headshell for DA-401 is special and there is no other replacement. I wonder why Denon made such decision. At least they should have sold enough headshells for DA-401 so that users could swap cartridges easily. Had I known this limitation, I would have gone for DP-80 with 307 or 309 arms, or even 305, 302, ...
However, DA-401 looks pretty good and it sounds quite good with DL303 and HA-1000.
@ihcho When DA-401 was released it wasn't a problem to buy additional headshell for this model. I have 3 original headshells for this tonearm to swap cartridges. The shell is super lightweight and this is why it's not a regular headshell. Now search for the headshell and buy it! 
It’s been just a couple of days sinceI got the turntable and have had no luck to find a headshell for DA-401 yet. ;-)
Let me know, just in case, if you think keeping three headshells for this tonearm is too much for you. I have DL-103R and Ortofon MC20 super but it looks like this tonearm may not be able to work well with them. Will see.
thx
There is no horizontal movement, if you engage the antiskate yes it moves outwards as it should, the tonearm hasn't been overhauled.

Many thanks



Anybody has used both DA307 and DA309 arms and has opinion on both?
It looks like DA309 sells at around $100~150 more than DA307. Is DA309 worthwhile for $100~150 more if somebody has a choice between DA307 and 309?
Thanks in advance.
This is not related directly but Thursday I finally finished setting my vinyl rig, adjusted the XSV3000SP VTF with brush to 1.5g and tested, it tracked with no issues, finally used the Hifi news LP and there was some unwanted noise on top of the tone when playing the tracking tracks ... Increasing the VTF to 2.1g fixed the issue, antiskate adjusted using the LP is at 1.7.

Chakster (and others) you mentioned 3g VTF with brush, if 2.1g with brush sounds good should I still go all the way to 3g? or keeping it lower as long as it tracks is desirable? I suspect that good tracking at 2.1 with the Hifi news LP doesn't mean it will always track that well with other LPs, is that accurate?
Yesterday I listened to vinyl for the 1st time in 38 years for 8 or more hours .... a mix of LPs from initial pressings to modern ones, even modern LP's highly praised by guys like Fremer (which I respect very much) although dead silent in terms of noise the dynamics and mastering in general were not comparable to others, the Wildflowers Tom Petty album was an example, I expected more from it. A Journey - Escape 1981 original Columbia pressing sounded incredible. I am very very excited rediscovering vinyl, I can say now that all my efforts and money throw at it were worth it.
Thank you all for your help, I am grateful to know you here online.