Dedicated 20 amp circuit - Electrician laughed!

well don‘t tell anybody, and they won‘t be any the wiser…

I never really looked at getting a dedicated outlet as a tweek to improve sound. I did it because I didn't want to blow a fuse. My primary rig is in my living room and everything in that room is(was) on one 15amp circuit. Not a problem with everyday things like lamps, TV etc. 

Millercarbon. Check the Equitech website :)  I use a 2Q and would never be without it. I've also got a Sound Application unit which is a terrific compliment. Common mode and differential mode noises. 

HO HO HO!!!!!!

To be honest, I’m just guessing it’s 14, it was never discussed. I would assume he put in what he felt was appropriate for my level of equipment in use. I will ask him next time we speak. My run to the basement panel is roughly 40 feet. 

He used MC 14 gauge to a surface mount box in my audio closet. It was a very clean install. 

My electrician turned out to be an audiophile with quite a system of his own. He was very enthusiastic about doing this. His entire system is run off of multiple dedicated lines.

Yesterday I had a dedicated 20 amp line installed for my system after putting it off for years. All I can is - do it. I noticed an immediate improvement in my system. I have had a subwoofer hum forever that no amount of tweaking could fix, its now gone. The entire system is quieter. My phono stage which was fairly quiet is now noise free. This is the best $400 upgrade I’ve ever invested in my system. I should have done this years ago. 

@ebm  Nice advice for breakers  Wrong thread 

I have pr of coda tm monos rated 800/8 ohms double down to 2ohm running through Shunyata cyclops v3 figured i might need 30 amp maybe not, Did not hook em up yet so i will have to figure what i need, All dedicated lines Maybe 20 amp if i hooked up seperate

Most here that make upgrades use 20A circuits and 10awg wire (that is rated for 30A).
Whether one 20A circuit is enough may depend on the system.  Front end stuff doesn't use many amps, but some large amplifiers do when they are run hard.  The designer of my amplifiers has told me that by giving each monoblock its own 20A circuit I do not need to worry about any sonic deficiencies due to power limitations . 

Did not know they had 30 amp receptacles i used them before the breakers i mean.Just thought it would let more current through?Not a electrician but know how to wire up stuff

fruitloopsr

Is there a difference using 30 amp breakers instead of 20 or just overkill
Does it matter either way

Yes, there’s a difference. Check NEC and your local code. NEC says you can’t use a 30A breaker on a 20A receptacle.

It matters, but not quite the way you think. No system really needs the extra amps. One 20A line is plenty. Going to 30 might be better but in terms of sound quality is really splitting hairs. Not only the breaker but the wire changes, and then outlets, and its just a whole lot easier to stick with the 20 and put your time and money into other things like power cords that make a whole lot more difference. 

This from a guy who has wired his room several different ways and heard and knows whereof he speaks.

Is there a difference using 30 amp breakers instead of 20 or just overkill 
Does it matter either way
Thanks

jbecker61  two thumbs up. Great to hear actual experience versus thoughts and ideas from those who say power doesn't matter.
I use an Equitech 2Q and am pleased with it. However, I realize my overall power quality won't compete with yours. I think and understand cost prevents many from trying your solution; but I don't know why they knock things they obviously know absolutely nothing about. Enjoy your quiet background dynamics and nuance:) Pete

I guess your electrician would have a field day with me. I put in 10 separate circuits for my system, everything has its own circuit. The amp for my mains is rated for 20 amps, so that one is 20, the rest are 15 amp. My house was wired with a 400 amp service, and the panel is only about 8 foot from my system, so wiring it was really no big deal.

That was very likely as our old homes were converted as late as 1964.

Geofkaitt-again, stupid comment. "I had four built" is colloquial for owned older homes, not indicating I specifically constructed them or had them constructed for me. Why bother with the statement that is obviously untrue but commonly understood (that's rhetorical-does not require an answer).

fleschler
I had four built in 1886, one in 1914 and six in 1926.  

>>>>You’re much older than I thought. 😬

I own and managed 72 homes in the San Fernando Valley.  The only homes that did not have conduit or romex with standard breakers were built prior to 1930s.  I had four built in 1886, one in 1914 and six in 1926.  All were upgraded to romex and breakers.  It would be very odd here to see a 50's home with fuses here.

If you have to use conduit see if 2 conductor with ground MC aluminum armor cable is allowed. (Actually aluminum armor MC cable is better than Romex for feeding audio equipment.

@ the_treble_with_tribbles


I assume this is what you are referencing. MC (Metal Clad) is a cable that has copper insulated conductors housed in an armor metal housing. MC cable is manufactured with a steel armor and an AL (aluminum) armor. The conductors are available in solid core copper wire or stranded wire.


Example of MC cable.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/AFC-Cable-Systems-10-2-x-125-ft-Solid-MC-Lite-Cable-2107-32-AFC/20501550...

Middle Atlantic Products.


Integrating Electronic Equipment and Power into Rack Enclosures
Optimized Power Distribution and Grounding for Audio, Video and Electronic Systems AC


Power Wiring Types (cont’d) Metal Clad (MC)is manufactured in both steel and aluminum with twisted conductors that help reduce AC magnetic fields. Although the steel jacket helps reduce AC magnetic fields, the twisting of conductors has the greatest effect on reducing these fields. Another benefit is the constant symmetry of the phase conductors with respect to the grounding conductor which greatly reduces voltage induction on the grounding wire. (NEC article:330)

Two conductor plus 1 ground MC (Metal Clad)is a good choice for Non-Isolated Ground A/V systems. MC cable contains a safety grounding conductor (wire). The three conductors in the MC cable (Line, Neutral and Ground) are uniformly twisted, reducing both induced voltages on the ground wire and radiated AC magnetic fields. The NEC article 250.118 (10)a prohibits the use of this cable for isolated ground circuits because the metal jacket is not considered a grounding conductor, and it is not rated for fault current.

EDIT:
For larger conductor MC cable you can buy it with stranded copper or stranded AL conductors.


Jim

@jea48

It was the 5/8/2020 at 5:38 p.m. post:

" So if the AHJ, (Authority Having Jurisdiction), in your area requires conduit must be used do not install more than one dedicated circuit in a conduit. If you do there is a good chance you will end up having ground loop hum problems. If you have to use conduit see if 2 conductor with ground MC aluminum armor cable is allowed. (Actually aluminum armor MC cable is better than Romex for feeding audio equipment.

Romex, just a guess, is probably the most widely used though to feed audio equipment. There are some best practices that should be followed for the installation of Romex though."

So maybe I read it wrong, as a non-electrician? So is "2 conductor with ground MC aluminum armor cable" actually copper wire with the armor clad being the aluminum component? I read it as aluminum cable with armor, and I did find one place selling it (with stranded aluminum conductors).

To clarify too, I wasn’t critical at all, as jea48 is well-known as an expert.

I think the dedicated 20 amp circuit is a good thing and #12 awg is sufficient unless the wiring is more than 75 ft from the panelboard then upsize to a10awg because of voltage drop +/-3%. Where the electrician would help is to make sure the house is PROPERLY grounded and the main wiring is connected well and tight. This will keep the power clean and if there is  a short or overcurrent you will not bring it across your equipment( amp, preamp etc.) Whole house suppression is good but at equipment is also helpful.I would also say when you wire the receptacle make sure the copper is clean and your connections are tight ( simple stuff we tend to overlook) can make a big difference. I have found many homes from the 40-90's wiring make work okay but grounding and bonding not suited best for electronic, audio, amp, etc.

A dedicated circuit has been one of the most cost effective choices I've ever made, the sound stage becomes more defined and transparent. 

@jea48 Yep, that was exactly it :-) Not sure when the original house was built, but it was very old when we moved in when, I was a young child, in early 50s.
I believe you're right, it does seem that that old wiring was copper and the wire we replaced it with back in the 60s, was insulated copper plated alum. in a jacket, a bit like the modern Romex....Jim

That sounds like old knob and tube wiring.  Is this what it looked like?  
https://www.google.com/search?source=univ&tbm=isch&q=knob+and+tube+wiring&sa=X&ved=2...  

If it was knob and tube the wire was more than likely tinned hard drawn solid copper wire.    

Jim

.

Back in the old days (I can say that now) in the early 50s, our family home was wired with old stranded aluminum, textile insulated wires; one hot and one neutral with no ground. They all ran under the house from joist to joist through glass insulators. Every time we ran the toaster and about anything else, it would blow one of the old screw in fuses and dad would have to go to the basement with a flash light and screw in a new fuse. Sometime around the mid 60s I helped my father and uncle re-wire the whole house and put in a 30A, 220V (back then actually was 220V) circuit for mom's new dryer  - Thank God and science for Romex....Jim  

Don't get me wrong, I completely believe that Audio components should not be in a circuit that is shared by appliances. I also believe high current amps usually work best plugged directly into a wall receptacle and on a dedicated circuit, or at least one shared by only a few low current devices. Follow your manufactures recommendations, but generally (unless you have old or bad and not up to code wiring) you do not need to re-wire your house to find a clean circuit/circuits to run your audio gear...Jim 

Aluminum wire is used mostly in large guages into the main panel or a subpanel. You need to use a grease on it as well. Aluminum was used for a time during the 1960's wiring entire houses, copper was scarce because of the Vietnam war. I used to own a house built in 1967 wired entirely with aluminum wire. 

I had the Romex wire from some long ago project on the basement shelf. I knew the work involved so one day I found some ambition, drilled the necessary holes and pulled the wire. I then bought the best breaker I could find and connected it to the panel. I used a good quality outlet and had my own dedicated 20 amp circuit for the cost of the outlet and the breaker. Oh, and lots of sweat and sawdust all over me (and the clean-up). I run my system through a balanced power unit which cleans up the AC and supplies consistent pure power to my system. it is dead quiet. I consider myself lucky that I am able to this but it is not hard. Most of it is just plain old manual labor. If you want to hear a bunch of discussion about N.E.C. just mention balanced power and electricians go crazy. I just smile and hit play! 

the_treble_with_tribbles38 posts  

05-14-2020  
 8:24pm


@jea48 mentioned using Al wire instead of Cu, I would be interested to learn why.

@ the_treble_with_tribbles

Copy of post please.


Jim
.

Definitely appreciate @spenav and the link to Mr. Galbo’s recommendations. I’ve always been wanting the 240V circuits, but everybody says that’s beyond extreme. But they do it other places, so why not in the U.S.?

@jea48 mentioned using Al wire instead of Cu, I would be interested to learn why.

Now, not to be a nattering nabob of negativity, but what are people doing about the NEC rule regarding tamper resistant receptacles unless the receptacle is higher than 5.5 feet? I understand the NEC thinking, but if you don’t have any 3-year-old kids in the house, it seems a bit beyond extreme to me. I believe even if you do the work yourself you’re supposed to get a permit, and an inspection, and I think non-tamper-resistant receptacles would be marked unacceptable.

I’m not an expert on the NEC, but I’ve done a fair bit of studying for installing my PV system. But it is my understanding that a 20-amp breaker gets a 20-amp receptacle, or 15-amp receptacle if it is the only one, no matter what gauge wire is used. I know oversizing wire is allowed, as I did this on the PV system, but you also have to oversize the ground too, from what I remember.

I think that some of you guys buying into some of the crazy ideas here need to get a copy of the residential NEC. First: NEC does NOT allow separate earth grounds in any circuit that is connected to your primary service (the service that comes to your home, over head or underground, from your power co. to your main service box). Every ground in every circuit must be connected to the ground buss that is connected to the earth ground rod. Second: NEC requires 12AWG wire for a 20A circuit. It does not require 10AWG unless the run is over 50’ and 8AWG wire will not even properly fit in a 15 or 20 A receptacle. If your amp or any other device requires a 20A service, it is required to have a cord that is designed to plug into a 20A receptacle. If your amp has a 20A dedicated cord, or is required to have a 20A cord, it will only plug into a twenty amp receptacle which is required to be on a 20A circuit. If your amp or any other device comes with the standard 15A cord, then it is UL approved to and required by law to work properly on a standard 120V, 15A circuit
Not trying to be snide, but even audiophiles have rules....Jim

The best mechanics in the world are not necessarily the best drivers for Formula 1 or alike. Just saying.

Unless you are clipping bass your power supply is more stable with some resistance not less. However, neutral to ground differential can induce noise in unexpected places as chassis and signal ground vary with load.

 Hi Mitch

I suspect that 10 AWG is very adequate for your distance.  My panel is much farther to my outlet (50+) and since I was going to start from scratch I figured why not do it by the book.  I probably would not change a thing if I had a 10 AWG installed.  Having said that, I was frankly surprised by the improvement going from a clean 14 AWG (house is only 3 years old) to an 8. I didn't expect the highs to be improved so much.  I was under the impression that my bass was going to get all the benefits, but I was wrong.
For people starting from scratch, listen to Mr. Galbo's recommendation:

• 1 to 40 feet: 10 gauge wire
• 40 to 60 feet: 8 gauge wire
• Over 60 feet: 6 gauge wire
  

I have read about the 220-240V opinion previously.  Otherwise, the article is mostly about wire gauge vs. length.  Front end equipment is not going to draw near enough to matter so I suspect the concern is primarily related to big amps (like I have).  My dedicated lines are only about 25 feet from the main 200A panel so I am fully comfortable using 10awg wire for 20A circuits.  Note, he indicated a junction box is necessary to change the larger wire that covers most of the run to a 10awg size that can feed the outlet.  Not sure about silver paste on an electrical connection as long as the connection is mostly gas tight with copper on copper or copper on brass/bronze etc.  I have used the Quicksilver stuff from Xreme AV LLC on power cords I have made but quit using it because I noticed no difference.   I also noticed he carries the wire gauge recommendation on to speaker cables.....made me wonder whatever happened to the guy recommending 0 gauge car battery cables.

I decided on using 10 awg wire on a 20 amp circuit from a dedicated subpanel rather than 8 awg because it fit into my SR blue outlet.  It feeds all my equipment with a Bryston Bit20 isolation transformer (my amps go into another box and then into the same outlet).  Maybe 8 awg is better but I did not want to deal with it's size.

10 awg is fine so is 12awg for a 20amp 120v circuit. Yes, I read the article. 

@mitch2 

Please read the link that I provided and you will understand where 10 gauge might not be optimal. You might get away with it, heck! I got away with 14 AWG. And it wasn’t bad, just not optimal. 

How is 10 awg wire not large enough for a 20A circuit? I cannot imagine a situation where using 8 awg wire reduced to 10 awg wire would perceptively "improve" sonics for equipment run through a 20A circuit. I have run two 95lb, 300 wpc, Class A amplifiers through two separate, dedicated 20A circuits fed with 10 awg wire and never had any reason to believe my power was adding distortion or restricting dynamics in any way.

Dedicated 20A circuits using one wire size up (i.e., 10 awg wire) is sort of the gold standard around here. Some believe further improvements can be achieved by powering all the equipment through a single dedicated circuit, or by using large isolation transformers, and of course some believe in pebbles and dust but, IME, if dedicated, properly implemented, 20A lines don’t meet the power needs of consumer audio equipment, the problem is probably with the equipment.

Hi tvad
i used an outlet that came with my PC 12 conditioner, they call it the black outlet. It accepts up to 10 gauge. The electrician used a reducer to go from 8 to 10 gauge. I then used a 2-gang box with a dummy outlet (not connected) to make sure I had enough room to maneuver the wires, they are really thick.