Looking for some experienced input on the diminishing return as you go up the the DAC ladder. I mostly stream music and occasionally listen to CDs. Currently, I’m using a Schiit Bifrost Multibit DAC. It’s connected to my Naim Nait 5Si and that drives Zu Omen ii speakers. In my limited experience, I have not heard any substantial differences when changing DACs. I’m considering a Denafrips Pontus DAC. Does the significantly higher cost justify what might be a marginal increase in sound quality? Is buying a more expensive DAC for better sound just splitting hairs, and making you feel better about your system? Are different DACs just different coloration of the sound?
I don’t want to be duped into buying something I don’t really need. Thanks.
My current dac, is the Audio Alchemy DDP-1 dac/pre
I am using that and loving it. I have been shopping for a tube preamp, which will mean picking a separate DAC, and it's been frustrating. I am spoiled by the DDP-1, having the DAC/preamp/headphone amp all in one box. It's a really good unit, especially for the price. Robert Harley gave it a great review back in 2016 ... 6 long years ago.
The new T+A 200 DAC/preamp (with excellent headphone stage) is essentially a newer, better version of the DDP-1, and I am told its DAC section is superb. But—it is about $7500! Ouch.
I had thought of upgrading my Audio Alchemy DDP-1 + PS 5 (DAC/PRE). Fortunately, I came across an AGon thread mentioning Ali-Express Nordost knock off cables. I decided to stick my toe in the water and bought a Odin 2 coax cable and was shocked how much better my system sounded then my Pangea Premier XL. I then bought a Odin 2 PC and XLR interconnects, more jaw drops, then I bought the cheaper Nordost PC (<$60!) for my PS 5 outboard power supply and my Audiolab CDT6000> speaker cables. Ditto: crazy improvements for very little investment. One component left was my Core Power 1800 PLC. For it I bought the Nordost Gold PC (<$100!). When it arrived I was torn between putting on my transport or the PLC. Fortunately, I decided on the PLC as I was familiar with the systems overall sound. Could it make a difference over my 15 year old heavy gauge, stiff boutique PC, and if so how much? Oh my, but on a micro-level like cleaning a window, which revealed deeper, wider, taller stage improving focus of tiny sounds deeper into the sound stage, AND, bass.
So for way less than the price of my very well know speaker and interconnects, I realized my DAC is just fine. FYI all come with FREE returns. You just have to be patient as it take ~ 3 weeks to arrive
I pulled the trigger and bought a Denafrips Ares ii. I like it so far, it is a nice fit with my current setup. Great return for the price. Better than my Bifrost, which I moved to a secondary system. I did consider RME. It has many features that I probably won’t take advantage of. I would probably be always fiddling with sound, driving myself nuts. It sounds like a well regarded Dac.
dsfreeh,
Be sure to consider the Dac RME ADI 2 DAC FS. It’s the best DAC someone can find under 1300 and has several resources and the sound is like you are in the recoding room.
Everything the reviewers say about it is true. Believe in me.
It's still breaking in so I've left all the settings alone. Once I get the final 2 pieces to my system in place I'll start to fool around with the EQ settings.
@agbrace There is a very nice improvement on the sound with 2 AHB2’s. It becomes louder at the lowest gain setting (actually all 3 settings). It is way more powerful, if your speakers, need that power. On the spec sheet, monos are even quieter than the single stereo AHB2. The damping factor does go down.
Unfortunately, with my Thiel CS3.7 . the 2 Ohm requirement was not satisfied as nicely as the single stereo AHB2. However, the next 2 speakers I am looking to buy, the Yamaha NS5000 or KEF Blade META 2 can use the monos perfectly since they do not require the 2 Ohm power. I sold my Thiel CS3.7’s today so my next speaker purchase awaits.
I actually need to get a second AHB2 again because my best speaker cables are short length Audience FrontRow with SPEAKON terminations. Need to get another AHB2 to put that back into the system. It is a wonderful speaker cable.
@yyzsantabarbara I thought about adding a second AHB2, would be interested to know opinions on the improvement over a single stereo. Agree on the DAC3B, was too bright and hard sounding, put it in the system a number of times and it never stayed in very long.
I had a full Benchmark stack, DAC3B, LA4, AHB2 and could never get really engaged with the sound quality vs other components, Pass Labs, ARC, HoloAudio. I ended up selling the DAC3B but still have the LA4 and AHB2. The LA4 is a very nice sounding preamp and my favorite component out of that stack. The AHB2 sounds decent, on the warm side in my setup but when compared to a Pass X350.8, the Pass is a noticeable improvement top to bottom. Build quality is very nice on the Benchmark stuff and I think they are very good values but I’m not convinced of all the hype.
In my situation I have the LA4 and AHB2 (soon mono) and I pair that with a more engaging DAC, the Musetec 005.
I use my DAC3B with a RAAL VM-1a tube headphone amp that benefits from the very neutral to slightly bright DAC3B.
DAC was 3x and it was a solid purchase. It is noticeably better , not just subtle differences. Will something at the $6k to $7k price blow me away? Who knows, but it will be interesting to find out
@rockrider I am also using the M-Scaler with the Dave (as I was with the TT2), I haven’t tried the Dave solo yet, so can’t say how that would compare to the TT2+M-Scaler combo.
I had a full Benchmark stack, DAC3B, LA4, AHB2 and could never get really engaged with the sound quality vs other components, Pass Labs, ARC, HoloAudio. I ended up selling the DAC3B but still have the LA4 and AHB2. The LA4 is a very nice sounding preamp and my favorite component out of that stack. The AHB2 sounds decent, on the warm side in my setup but when compared to a Pass X350.8, the Pass is a noticeable improvement top to bottom. Build quality is very nice on the Benchmark stuff and I think they are very good values but I'm not convinced of all the hype.
Congratulations. That is the way it starts. My rule of thumb is never invest less than 2x… then you get a profound wow and significant jump in performance. I have gotten them periodically for fifty years as my systems continually exceeded my expectations.
I got spoiled with a remote DAC, especially with the features it had. Remote volume, source, EQ, digital filter, balance , and on and on
The DAC that replaced it has no features other than power and input . Preamp has remote volume so it’s really not a big deal. Sound is really good. If I have to decide between sound quality and features it SQ every time…. I believe it when they say many hours of listening went into this DAC. It sounds like it. Very natural sounding. Fatigue free, engaging.
Many dacs don't have any means of volume control, others strip bits. In order extracting maximum potential from these dacs requires some form of volume control, the quality of that volume control has major bearing on sound quality of that dac.
This is true if your goal is to get the music as close to the original recording as possible. The Benchmark DAC3 paired with the ABH2 power amp will get you state of the art transparency for $5000.
However, many of us would be in for a rude awakening with that level of transparency in our systems. Our tube preamps and R2R DACs add flavor or color to the sound...giving us a deeper and wider soundstage, additional layering, and weight to the sound...the perception of 3D sound.
I’m going to enjoy my new DAC , it is messing with my mind how good a Non OS DAC can sound. I fully intend to demo something like a Bricasti or something in that league before my one year trade up. If the difference is that dramatic I will go all in….
I have always preached how important the preamp is and there is a lot of truth to that , but with a really good preamp the difference in source components can be heard and it’s not always subtle
@snsIf you are building a minimalist system, built in volume control on a DAC\Streamer could be a huge cost savings. Then you have something like the Weiss 502 DAC mentioned above. Initially the price seems quite high, and I would say purely for the bare DAC electronics it is. However, when you include all the software features (if you use them), it seems reasonable for what is likely a relatively low volume product.
Shouldn't preamp, analog volume control be considered part of price/performance ratio. Many dacs don't have any means of volume control, others strip bits. In order extracting maximum potential from these dacs requires some form of volume control, the quality of that volume control has major bearing on sound quality of that dac. Dacs with quality analog volume control built in may be far greater value than many assume at first glance.
Until earlier this week I would have agreed that the law of diminishing returns does apply to DACs (as it does to other hifi equipment in my experience). I started my streaming life with a Logitech squeezebox with built in DAC, moved on to their Transporter, then to a Lumin D1 and from there to separate DACs. First a Chord 2Qute, then a TT2, then added an M-Scaler (upsampler). Last week, I managed to find a good deal on a used Chord Dave. I was expecting similar incremental improvement as with all my previous upgrades, like slightly better placement, separation, somewhat tighter bass perhaps, more natural voices, even less sibilance, better reproduction of ambient sounds/noises on the recording. But I have been absolutely blown away by this upgrade. While it is bringing improvements on all these fronts, it is in doing so in spades. It is as if I am listening to a whole new system, sometimes suggesting multi channel presentation even though it is stereo. It has by far exceeded my expectations. Now, in fairness, the Dave, even at the second hand price I paid, was about double what I paid for the previous TT2. I leave it to you to consider what you would find a reasonable expected return for that extra money, but I have been surprised and blown away by the improvement it has brought to my system. I’m afraid the only way to establish the improvement a DAC can bring is to try it out. Hope you will find an upgrade that brings as much listening pleasure as my most recent one!
@firstgrowth , the 502 looks like a cool toy. I mean that in a good sense. Do you personally set and forget it or change the settings to match the music?
@firstgrowth Well, I didn't want to read that but I can believe it. The 502 seems very impressive and I am probably right where you were at. I am currently running a Denafrips Venus II and am waiting on a new HoloAudio May KTE, hoping this will be my end game DAC as the 502's price point is double my budget. Fingers crossed.
Lots of really good suggestions and advice here. In my mind none are more important than trusting your own ears. I upgraded my DAC less than a year ago. I set a budget and started to audition. I had a dealer come to my house with 4 different ones on tow all at varied price points. I heard subtle differences between all of them but not one was good enough to make me want to get rid of what I already had in my system. He then plugged in a Weiss 502 and, for me, it was like crossing the street and getting a completely new perspective on what I was hearing. This wasn't a small upgrade, it was a leap. It was double my budget but I went into the safe and peeled off the cash. Every day I listen I'm happy I did.
I don't know ghdprentice, I had my audiophile epiphany after I got rid of the "big buck" esoteric stuff and started taking the time to really learn what was required for good sound, and paying someone who knew their stuff to get me there. It took big bucks, but the big bucks was concentrated in a few areas.
That can be a really effective strategy. Getting to really know a piece of equipment for an extended length of time, so you really know the sound… then comparing with something better allows for a “deep” and thorough comparison.
My recent acquisition is pretty nice, but I bought it with the knowledge that in 10 months or so I will be taking a DAC or two home that is $7 k or so to try head to head. If the difference is pronounced I am going to take advantage of their trade up policy.
I wondered the same when looking for a DAC for my system, and in my research, I had decided to go with an FPGA or R2R Dac instead of a DAC chip based model.....would a $1,000ish DAC like the Denafrips Aries II R2R at $820 be sufficient, or should I move up the ladder to the likes of the Chord Qutest FPGA $2,000ish, Denafrips Pontus II R2R at $1,750, or HoloAudio Spring 3 Level 2 at $2,400 be worth it.
In MY system, the Denafrips Pontus II R2R DAC sounded best....though I can also say that the Chord Qutest and HoloAudio Spring 3 are both phenominal DACs......just not in my system.
Most of us have started out a bit wary of “big buck” audiophile stuff. Most of us then had a world changing purchase. For me, my first audiophile component was a tape deck. I had purchased this highly reviewed “amazing” Onkyo (midfi) deck. ok, yawn, it was fine. Then I had some trouble with it. I went to a high end store and saw a 7 year old first generation 35 pound Nakamichi tape deck. I took it home to try. OMG… I Remember having chills go up and down my back.. goose bumps on my arms. I had absolutely no idea that something like that was remotely possible. It put the performance of the Onkyoin the category of transistor radio. But playing around in the shallow end addind a couple hundred bucks will not do it. This where dealers can help… take an audiophile unit home.
That was the beginning of one of the most rewarding pursuits of my life. You spend some ungodly amount of money on a 30 - 45 pound incredibly well constructed piece of audiophile equipment and the performance is phenomenal and you don’t look to upgrade it for a decade or two. BTW, I don’t think one of my components weighs less than 35 pounds… isolation from vibration, noise… quality components and lots of engineering.
I have only listened to a variety of DACs below $1k. I couldn’t tell the difference. That is why I asked the question, are there diminishing returns. I want to buy a better DAC, but as you go up in cost is improvement worth it, or are they only marginally better, or not better at all. After this very thoughtful discussion, I thank everyone.
IMHO there are likely 10 other things in your system that need far more attention. I have heard DACs with intentional sound differences using tubes, and I have heard DACs that allow you to change the filter settings that causes an apparently audible difference which you may or may not like.
Changing filter settings can definitely be noticeable. I believe it is done through phase shifting but I could be wrong. But yes, it is technically a "HiFi effect" or coloration.
I also agree that it can be very difficult to tell differences between very well measured Delta Sigma DACs. Good luck finding audible differences between a Benchmark DAC3 and Topping D90SE.
Some people say that DACs are a solved problem. This is true only if you believe the goal is faithful reproduction of the original signal. Personally, that is not my goal and that is why I am a member of Club R2R ;-)
IMHO there are likely 10 other things in your system that need far more attention. I have heard DACs with intentional sound differences using tubes, and I have heard DACs that allow you to change the filter settings that causes an apparently audible difference which you may or may not like. Technically most of the setting are "worse", but if they float your boat why not. I have also compared expensive DACs (Mola Mola, DCS) with friends and could not tell the difference from "mid-priced" DACs. I thought maybe just maybe there would be, but there was not. It is really easy to convince yourself there is a difference, but when they did the switching and I did not know which was which, it was all the same. I was startled by how close you needed to have the volume settings though.
To clear up some incorrect information......Denafrips products are sold by an amazing distributor in Vinshine Audio and it's owner Alvin Chee, I've communicated with him many times (as I've bought several Denafrips products), I have never had such amazing response and attention as I've received from them.....emails returned in hours, unless overnight in Singapore.
Their products have a 3 year fully transferrable warranty, and the USA based service center for Denafrips products is TekSystems in Buda, TX
@mlsstl I stand corrected. Schiit return policy restocking fee is between 5-15% depending on product and for Yiggy it is 5%. So actually yea not too terrible in this case.
Just a quick comment. Schiit's home trial policy on their higher end products deducts a 5% charge if you return it. Big difference between that figure and 15%. As for shipping, I've bought several items from them and the most I've ever been charged for shipping is $36 for a Aegir amp.
There are differences between DACs that’s obvious. One important aspect of “diminishing returns “ in my opinion is it is reached much sooner on a system that’s not up to the level to reveal the differences and make you appreciate your investment and not believe you were duped into buying a component the potential of which you just can’t realize because you have other bottlenecks in your system.
So basically my point is everything has to balance out. I have never heard a Schiit DAC or the Denafrips. With the denafrips figure anything goes wrong it will need to take a trip to China. That alone makes it a non-starter for my but that’s just my take on it. I would stick with something that has solid customer service and an authorized repair center in your country of residence. Just my $0.02
audphile1, When someone sends a product back after a trial period it's now a used item. The manufacturer has to sell it used or demo. That's the reason for the restocking fee, to cover the loss. Yes it's true, you will pay for a trial period, there are no free lunches.
@electroslacker ...there’s a DAC3 but even they feel that’s getting into diminishing returns...
It can be. Demos at home in your system helps a lot to decide. Had a very nice DAC3B here for several weeks. Great on paper. Returned it. Ended up with a different R2R Ladder chip DAC at less cost, a unit with worse specs yet it simply sounded more engaging and more musical in my system. Let your ears be the guide for your system and setup.
There has been fine line between neutrality and the analytical in my setup. I've been doing a lot of streaming setup experimentation over the years, there has been the rare case when lowered noise floor has resulted in too finely etched sound stage and imaging, so I can see the case for higher resolution resulting in diminished soundstaging. Still, I'd have to say higher resolving setup nearly always results in better soundstaging. I consider improved sound stage and imaging as inherently allied to increased resolution. My theory on diminished soundstaging resulting from lower noise floor is due to mismatched clocks in various streaming devices.
I agree… typically high detail = better soundstaging. To me the real trick… and magic of a great system is to get really natural / musical sound and a great sound stage / imaging without being overwhelmed (disproportionately forward) with details. Often this is where tubes excel.
@bassdude actually if I’m not mistaking Schiit will charge you a 15% restocking fee upon return. So you”re down around $330 (provided it retails for $2200) plus the return shipping charges which could round it up to around $400 all in and turn it into a pretty Schitty deal if you ask me. I’d buy used or from a dealer that allows a return for a full refund in the event you don’t like it. Since it’s direct sale only you’re Schiit out o’ luck
i never felt there is a tradeoff between detail retrieval and soundstaging... in fact in my experience, excellent detail retrieval enables excellent imaging and soundstaging...
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
