For this amount of money, i will go for the Walker turntable and stay happy listening to all my Lps.
75 responses Add your response
I listened to it 1-2 times, but I couldn't make a comparison. But there is worse out there.
Well, a Walker table can be interesting, but whatever you do, it will influence the sound and no one knows, is it better or is it only different. The DaVinci is a different solution and you can use any Arm you want. I would prefer it to a Raven any minute of the day, but the latest one (forgot the name) from DaVinci could be interesting too. It has some design solutions from the AAS.
Dgad, that is not true. I bash nothing. I listened to that table more than a dozen times and there are differences between it and others. It is a discussion like everything else (cartridges etc.).
I can understand, when someone thinks about a change. Why not? Is it a religion? I am sorry, that I am not one of those, who support the internet sales based on private contacts to a manufacturer. I don't have such contacts. I am a regular customer who gets all from Dealers, not from direct delivery from manufacturer like you.
I am fine, when you can't hear differences, but please don't badmouth me.
I have heard different versions of the DaVinci AAS Gabriel. The new Gabriel uses bigger magnetic platters. I have heard the new version with a Grandezza arm and a Zyx UNIverse. In my opinion it is one of the Top-TTs currently available. I think the Raven if powered by a very good drive is a fine machine too (so why should you sell) but the big DaVinci is somehow also a design object, especially if you position more tonearm stands around the table. Regarding the prices of Gabriel and the new Raven ???
I have listened to this TT (with a C/audio cartridge). It offered a beautiful musical experience, and even hitherto noisy material sounded clear.
Whether you should switch to an AAS or not -- I don't know. If there's nothing wrong with your music, why not just stick to what you have? Perhaps upgrade your cartridge? Your phono?
Do I need to quote you above? And then you make a statement that you bash nothing. Every thread that mentions TW, you have to stick in your comment. Many of us on this forum and quite a few other forums know you have a grudge, but to put it forth repeatedly is unprofessional and poor.
I have never promoted any equipment beyond my personal experience, and even as such I keep it in a very kind tone. I have compared the Raven AC to a much less expensive turntable and have clearly characterized the differences as I heard them in my system. I have not ever criticized any other turntable, even though I have a good friendship with TW.
I also haven't tried to hide myself by changing my user name, and system page so that others might not identify me. And, isn't it clearly against Audiogon rules to change your user name. I wonder for what purpose this was done.
On to the subject of turntables, I will gladly give an honest account of my impressions of the Black Night shortly. It will be in context of my system in comparison to digital as the Raven is no longer with me. I honestly don't know anyone who can honestly compare 2 turntables in an absolute equal setup. There are so many limitations and the only way would be to do the comparison over time. I have learned that no 2 of the same cartridges sound 100% the same. But I can say that having no vinyl in my system for quite a long time now has been extremely depressing. As for the Da Vinci table, it might be very good. One thing I have learned the hard way is the equipment merry go round can often lead to dissappointment. Before my Raven flew away (loved to make that pun), I had 2 of my cartridges locked in perfect setup. I hope I can duplicate it again. Thank g-d for the Wally Tractor as that does help a lot.
I was against a change purely on the difficultly in duplicating the setup the next time around. But then the Black Night has a few design parameters that more than tempted me. In the end I buckled.
Not sure what your system is, but for any turntable my first recommendation is before changing any turntable make sure to experiment with proper isolation to realize what you have. This upgrade alone is not subtle and IMO will be your biggest ROI. Even if you get the Da Vinci in the future you will need isolation. As the tonearm needs to be isolated, not just the platter. This of course depends on your room/setup. I honestly believe the "super turntables" out there have obtained their status by including mechanical isolation in their design. Comparing 2 turntables in the same setup where one is an isolated design and the other isn't will show significant differences if the overall isolation of the non-suspended design is poor and will quickly be reflected in the sound.
Dgad, what you write is not true. Probably it disturbs the internet promotion, but I guess, that is the German way to try to discredit someone who does not support the direct sale. Anyway, it is the way it is. I know some products good enough to write a few sentences about it. I respect the work from TW Acoustics, really, he is succesful and he made his way. But others did it too, but without to discredit uncomfortable opinions. but tell us, What is so remarkable about the Raven that someone should have no right to think - and write - different?
Well, it is more or less a copy from Micro Seiki
Nothing special, lot have similar ones (without the AC option which was introduced from Micro Seiki)
Hm, had them. Nothing special, there is better out there.
Average, at best. I know a few owners who run it with with other units.
The material is from car industry and is about a few bucks per pound
Not existing in the construction.
No, it is copied from other designs. No problem with that, others do it too, but the VTA adjuster is made from someone else etc.
When someone writes he thinks about a change and I write, I can understand it, what's so bad about it. do you want to force someone to stay?
Please don't be the Internet mouth from the Designer. I know how they react and it is the following way:
It starts with
-the writers System is not good enough
-the writer wanted to have it, but he didn't get
-the writer wanted a better price, but he didn't get
-the room is not good enough
-and so on....
and when nothing helps, because the writer could afford it easily but he don't want to have it because he owns better:
Then private emails will go out to discredit him personally.
That is great. I have absolutely no respect for this kind of "Marketing support".
It isn't about the designer. I am just against your agenda and your dishonesty. And your agenda has nothing to do with music. It is a personal agenda, and you use these forums to promote it. I don't bad talk brands, I just make comparisons. You bad talk TW constantly and for me that is a problem. Please stay on the German forums or did they kick you off?
Dgad, it seems to me you don`t get it what syntax is expressing. You defend the designer which might be your best supplier at the time being. I know it from German forums - it runs the same way. some guys are promised something when they do something, test the next big TT or tonearm and attack people with critical remarks- and you did start it personally and you do not stop it. In my opinion it is not worth what you are promised to get... pls. don`t let us continue this bad import.
It is ok, I like to read such messages. But is it allowed for me to buy US Products?
Dgad, Please?. I want to support the US economy and the discriminated listener but you write I should go back to a German forum because you don't like what you read?
Hm, you prefer censored information? Fitted with untrue rumors and some fiction? I will wait a little bit, sooner or later they will "inform" (via you) that I was responsible for 9/11....
You don't get it. that's ok for me.
I see some systems recently posted or reposted by Syntax & Thuchan. Thuchan, a marvelous collection of turntables and audio gear. You must have a lot of fun listening and experimenting w. all the possible setups. Is one of your turntables clearly superior to the others? If so in what way, I would love to know. It would be enlightening. No sarcasm in that just curious. It is a dream to be able to compare such equipment side by side.
It just happens that every thread where a TW table is mentioned Syntax makes a negative comment or snide remark. His first post articulates a preference. That is fine. His 2nd post goes over the line. If there was a sonic comparison where I find my Micro Seiki turntables sounded more dynamic or had more extended highs than a different table, I would mention such. Never mind that Syntax has changed from a Basis to a pair of Micro Seiki turntables, suspended on a vibraplane (nice setup by the way). When I go to Audio Shows I can say what I liked, but honestly to say what I didn't like is more difficult as there are so many contributing factors. I will mention that "it is not for me". Quite a few owners of TW tables replied but in very diplomatic means, but you can read that Syntax comments had a affect. I don't do it and don't see the point. The remarks are to demonstrate the character of the poster. I also still don't understand why Syntax changed his user name.
Dear Dgad, honestly - I do not think you do Thomas W. nor his products any good in prolonging this dispute (if it is one at all) with Syntax. Syntax makes clear and sometimes too clear statements which very often do tease people.
Just think about it in a remote minute.
You are about to loose track in this thread - its not about Syntax and his non-preference of the TW TT's.
Thuchan was right - this is getting too personal and personal only.
Relax and enjoy your Raven TT - neither Syntax nor Thuchan nor me is envy you at all.
Before getting into the car and on the road home.........
It might be helpful to re-read the initial post which started this thread.
It is not about "do everybody has to agree upon the sonic quality of the AC Raven in its various incarnations".
Alectiong did ask for any comments and sonic impressions regarding the AAS Gabriel versus the AC3.
So far only Syntax did provide what was asked for.
If some do not like his conclusion then it is certainly not his problem.
None of us can please all the people all the time ( and honestly - none of us want to either....) - not even me..... :-)
Dgad, I know some people might call me an extremist having some tables and a few tonearms. And indeed in some respect I am one - maybe you too, being enganged in writings like this. I did not walk into a shop and bought them all, I collected over the years, especially the vintage ones and did repair and restore some of them. It is really a lot of fun playing with phono-preamps, tonearms, cartridges etc. But I do not sell and buy all the time - I do collect (maybe too much!!).
It is hard to judge which TT is the best sounding in my ears. Some people having visited me were overwhelmed by the many differences in the sound they could hear. Currently I am working with the Nakamichi and the Micro.
But back to our question. I know both producers very well, Thomas Woschnick and Peter Brem. I got in contact with them when both "developers took off". In the beginning they worked together and I was able to audition a Raven with a Grandezza tonearm. I liked this sound so much that I bought the Grandezza tonearm from Thomas (!). Now both people have quite a success and this is wonderful, isn`t it? despite they are running on separate ways. Both produce excellent pieces of audio-gear and do have their community - which is fine.
I don´t think there is any reason that we as consumers or afficinados continue the developer struggle for the final victory. Nevertheless we are allowed to judge the products like we perceive the products in our chains or at audition locations - and we should write in this forum about it.
I did hear the Black Raven at the Munich High-End show, but as I said it to Thomas this was not a good chain to judge the qualities of his new table. By the way it looks fantastic. The big DaVinci, which is a continous improvement project maybe reaching its final stage I heard twice and it is one of the modern masterpieces in my opinion.
I will not buy Thomas new black tiger nor Peters red italian horse due to the reason that my space is getting a little short. I hope you understand...
Audiosix, thank you for your valuable information. It is good, when you support those, who can't read 1 or 2 sentences properly. It would be very helpful, when you will show us that you are a German Designer who is specialized in Electronic repairs and that you know all kind of amps, preamps and that you repaired them all.
Not with original parts, but who cares. Btw. are there more here from overseas who will continue pickin' on me without any information for the thread?
It would be very helpful, when you will show us that you are a German Designer who is specialized in Electronic repairs and that you know all kind of amps, preamps and that you repaired them all.
Why do you think my daily work is of any interest here?
BTW, Lamm and many others are serving me with spare parts.
....well, this is not the AAA.....(german audio forum compared to which Audiogon is kind of cultural paradise....).
And I hope it is not developing in that direction.
It would be a real shame and pity.
Several german audiophiles already left that forum for good reason and the last thing we need is getting virulent imports.....
So - on topic please.
Anyone having any further first-hand experiences with the AAS Gabriel vs. the Raven AC3/Black Knight ???
BTW - I still do not believe that this exchange of sidekicks is in any way of any use for anyone. It is a waste of time.
Syntax has provided some personal experience and remarks.
Some didn't like those remarks.
Just put some experience of your own against it - instead of concentrating on Syntax's remarks.
Those who do so should - from past experiences - know only too well how much Syntax does enjoy their fury and futile attempts.
Any chance we get back to the topic ?
Let me try.......
I had a close look at both the DaVinci as well as sampleTT on display there was big and certainly an eye-catcher.
As both - the DaVinci as well as the AC3 or Black Night are fairly simple belt driven TT's without any isolation from vibration they both are quite easy to compare. The TW TT does certainly do feature the better finish and more precise tooling.
In the current state the DaVinci has some charme, but I think Mr. Brehm will add some finishing touches soon.
Both TT's do NEED an isolation from vibration desperately to perform anywhere near the possible state of the art.
I have had extensive time with both tables in the same system. While my comments and opinions are my own, I will say that both tables are very respectable. However, since you have the Da Vinci Arm and the Da Vinci Cartridge (both are excellent performers if I may say so myself) it is worth it to listen to the Da Vinci AAS Gabriel or Unison and decide for yourself if the different presentation is worth the switch from the AC3.
Hope this helps,
Alectiong, you are right. I strongly suggest having a look at both - the Vibraplane and the Minus-K.
They are different - in function, resonance frequency and price - and you will have do decide which to use.
In any case - make sure that the motors of the Raven AC3 are NOT placed on the isolation platform together with the AC3.
You would ruin 40 - 70% of the result.
Definitely a serious improvement. 3 weeks ago I did visit a Multi Motor Raven on a Vibraplane, the owner told me, it was a HUGE improvement, even when all motors on the VP. Minus K is also interesting but take care with the weight.
But you can check it easily without spending much money. Try it with a tube from a Bicycle. Next cheap step above is not using the delivered Mat from Millennium. It is like a LP12, you can do a lot to improve it. You can also try a record clamp...
I see many people owning a Raven improving the TT by motor gear, isolation platforms etc. So it should make sense. I have tested HRS platforms at the Munich High-End show and in my room. Maybe even better. And you may split two seperate platforms, one for the motor (or two) and a big one for the TT.
The Raven Motors are fairly free from vibration. I have seen motors on $10K plus turntables that really do vibrate. There is a dedicated isolation platform for the Raven 3. It has cutouts for the motors. I forget who makes it. Looks great & I have a picture somewhere. For a Raven one since you have more space you might be able to just isolate the turntable but will need to elevate to motor to compensate for the height of the isolation stand, but IMO & correct me if I am wrong any vibration from the motor (if it really vibrates???) would be transmitted by the belt somewhat. But honestly, my homemade stand and setup works wonders. I will qualify it as such, it is close to the equivalent of adding room treatments if you have gone there.
On a different note, the Vibraplane might not be able to sustain the weight if you have multiple arms. I know my cousin's vibraplane got a "flat". But I might be wrong. Check carefully into it. Also, I wouldn't want an isolation platform "vibrating" (since this is how is isolates) separately from the motor. This would introduce speed instability. Hence based on some suggestions here you would need to isolation platforms, one for the motor & one for the turntable. They need to be tuned to the same resonant frequency since different weights will be placed on them. Or you can just simplify and get one large single isolation platform. Complicated it gets if we let.
Downunder you would need a customized platform - or you increase the distance of the motors (a friend of mine did so with his AC-2 on a vibraplane with great results).
Minus-K does have fairly small sized isolation platforms.
As for the motors - they all vibrate.
As for the weight - the Raven AC3 is still TOO light to work on the smallest Vibraplane with anything near optimum results.
I would suggest putting a good solid granite or slade plate on the Vibraplane first and then the Raven on top.
The Vibraplane - as any isolation platform - does work best close to its maximum load. Only there the resonance frequency gets really low and thats what physics want.
All these do apply to the AAS Gabriel too.
You can do the pencil Test:
Record on the Table-no move-with the stylus into the lead out groove- all amps activated- Volume up to 50% or higher !!:
Struck with a pencil
-at the rack
-at the platform where your TT sits on it
-at the TT Chassis outside
-at the chassis near the platter
-onto the platter
-near the needle (1 inch)
and check what you will hear through your speakers.
Real good designs will let you hear close to nothing, others will hurt your ears.
The Vibraplane is quite good, normally used for electron microscopes. They are too cheap in my opinion, normally for use in Hospitals/Labors. Cheaper than a cable...I guess when it would be "made " for High End it would cost 12.000 instead of 2000. Anyone see High End equipment in Hospitals? HRS/SRA etc. racks for life saving electronics?
Any idea why?
Or you can do comparisons with Belts. Could be possible you will get better results with 1 really good Belt (Specs!) and 1 motor than with a regular belt and multi Motors. Or 1 good motor can be better than multiple average motors...
A good belt is available for 80,-- And that's High End price.
Anyway, a VP is better than nothing (worst is glass or stone)
Sorry Downunder, but NO motor in high-end audio TT's is anywhere close to what is possible regarding quality and quiet regarding vibration.
It gives a really nice insight into the subject of micro-vibrations if one gives a close look into electron-microscope techniques.
They do require exactly the very same surround conditions as a high-end TT justifying the name.
But if you or others believe their motors are quiet and literally free from vibration - well this is of course fine with me.
And of course fine with the manufacturers of your TT's as they see that their marketing is successful.
Everything looks fine from the distance - and may display nasty details if looked at too close. Its like giving the skin of a beautiful girl a close look with a magnifier - it really can spoil the whole illusion......
why do you don´t proof my suggestion on reality? Did you talk to Mike already? Who did tell you that you cannot bring your Raven motors "under vibration control". Are you living in the middle ages believing what some spiritual voice is telling you? I really don`t get it. But if you wanna stay in this status why are you discussing improvements or are you just defending your status quo? If this is the case pls. just tell me.