That is very interesting Audiozen. Would you mind posting the URL for Pascal? I have not discovered it on my own yet. |
Audiozen, I can no longer find the Abletec web site:
http://www.abletec.com/
Any ideas?
G. |
Never mind... I am brain-dead... here is the URL for Pascal Audio.... Easy to find once I googled the right words:
http://www.pascal-audio.com/
If indeed D-Sonic uses both Abletech and Pascal, It would be fascinating to discover what are the audible differences between D-Sonic amps based on Abletech, and D-Sonic amps based on Pascal.
G. |
Hi Arthursmuck, I reside in the State Capital.... Just sent you a PM with more info. Guido |
Per the comparison table at
http://www.pascal-audio.com/amplifier-modules.html
the power rating of M2-1500M appears to be outwardly consistent with the Pascal X-PRO3 module. |
As a long time fan of class D, I am delighted to hear that class D is evolving with new underlying technology. I hope that eventually, some of my favorite manufacturers, like Bel Canto and Rowland, will also adopt it. Guido |
Hi Wilsynet, what is the brand and specs of your NC-400 amp? Which OTL and SET amps does it replace? What are the merits of the NCore amp vs your previous OTL and SET amps?
Thank you, Guido |
Thank you so much Wilson, information very much appreciated. Guido |
It is worth considering that the sound of an amp is the product of the entire execution: design (or topology) ranging from the basic to the complex and exotic, choice of active and passive components, boards, dyelectrics, soldering ranging from handmade point-to-point to computer-assisted surface mount, as well as final construction/assembly.
That's why no amp models ever sound alike, and often do not cost alike, even when they are based on the same core technology, be it 6550 tubes or ICEpower 1000 ASP power conversion modules.
Concerning amps based on the new Abletec power conversion modules, it will be fascinating to listen to what is achieved by a variety of designers and manufacturers, who will inevitably apply their unique ingenuity, design philosophy, and market / pricepoint targeting to their particular amplifier creations.
Saluti, Guido |
Henry, you may want to contact the friendly business people at Audiogon, because H2O Audio info page seems to be obsolete:
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/manu.pl?h2oaudio&1&showmanu&Ice+H2O+Audio
* Phone number has still Virginia area code;
* Link to web site is dead;
* Company is listed under "I"... Shouldn't it be listed under "H"?
Saluti, Guido |
Hi henry:
http://www.iceh2oaudio.com
is invalid, or is offline. It would be a good idea for you to copy/paste the entire valid URL from your browser directly into your next post. G. |
Hi Henry, I am using IE8 on XP Pro 32 bits with SP.3 and all critical/optional patches. Guido |
Hi Deadlyvj, my personal apologies for the unwitting contributions to the temporary derailment of the thread. One of the problems is that, Abletec modules being only recently introduced in component design pipelines, not too many major designers of switch mode amplifiers have introduced products based on these power conversion modules. As the initial batch of Abletec-based amplifiers reach consumers, and more manufacturers adopt these power conversion modules, I am hopeful that we will start to see real findings, hopefully on this thread. |
AudioZen and all, ICEh2oaudio.com is back online at:
http://iceh2oaudio.com/
Henry's current phone number is listed as:
1 713 371 7591
which indicates that Henry has moved West, and now resides in my state of Texas.
may I now gently suggest that we return this thread to the discussion of technical merits of Abletec and other new generation class-D power conversion modules, to their application to actual amplifier components, and to the findings of those who have had an early chance of listening to such creatures.
Regards, G. |
AudioZen, by pure coincidence, I received today some additional specs for the class D Rowland Continuum Series 2 integrated amplifier.
CONTINUUM Series 2
Integrated Amplifier OUTPUT POWER: 400W @ 8 ohms/800W @ 4 ohms
FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 5 Hz - 70 kHz, -3 dB @ 8 ohms
THD + NOISE: 0.05%, 20 Hz - 20 kHz
INPUTS: 2 pair balanced (XLR) 2 pair unbalanced (RCA) 1 pair unbalanced bypass (RCA)
OUTPUTS: 1 pair balanced (XLR) 1 pair unbalanced (RCA)
WEIGHT: 35 lb / 15.9 kg
DIMENSIONS: 5.3" x 15.5" x 15.0" 135mm x 394mm x 380mm
The device will come in three configs: basic, or with additional DAC card, or with additional phono card. |
Hi McBuddah, yes please keep us posted on how the M2-600M amps break in.... Unless the Abletec modules behave tremendously different from old ICEpower, you may expect a 600 hours to 1200 hours of music making before they reach peak and yield their very best. G. |
Hi AudioZen, as far as I know, Continuum S2 will be priced in mid $9K for its basic version, and will still shy below $10K for the versions that incorporate the optional DAC card or the optional Phonostage card.
I have since learned that the preamplification circuit of Continuum S2 is based on the new Capri S2 preamplifier... I Also heard that the Capri S2 circuit, as well as the DAC card, were developed in an engineering collaboration with Danish company Holm Acoustics. |
Hi AudioZen, I readily admit that am extremely fond of the creations of both Jeff Rowland and John Stronczer of Bel Canto.... Fact is that these people are true audio electronic engineers and audio circuit designers, rather than modders. Class D power conversion modules are components... With them you can derive a very basic amplifier implementation, or a sophisticated circuit that instantiates the sonic/musical philosophy of the designer.... Rowland, Stronczer, and ARC engineers, just to name a few, are definitely in the latter camp.
On the other hand, each product can only justify itself in the music it produces... hence, until I hear a well broken-in Continuum S2, I will not know if Mr. Rowland has scored yet another bull's eye.
By the way, do you happen to know which Pasquale power conversion module has been utilized inside the new Continuum S2?
G. |
Mapman, at this point it is still all conjectural. The pics posted on 6moons or other sites may or may not reflect current production. I am not aware of any official statements by D-Sonic about the suppliers and modules used. The D-sonic site is unspecific about the subject:
http://www.d-sonic.net/products/mono/
G. |
Hi Vladimir, of course you are right, an amplifier can justify its existance only on its audible performance. On the other hand, D-Sonic is utilizing some very innovative technologies to achieve its price/performance goals... And that is a fascinating topic as well. G. |
To be more specific, Rowland makes the new M525stereo: a 250W stereo amp bridgeable to 1000W mono operations. The device is based on Pascal power conversion modules with PFC integrated in the power supply... M525 has just started to ship. Continuum S2 is based on different Pascal modules, and is not shipping yet. |
To add to the extant class D lore,
I have written a review of the Merrill Veritas monoblocks for Positive Feedback on issue No. 68:
http://positive-feedback.com/Issue68/merrill_audio.htm
Once the amps were properly broken in with 1,000 hours of active operations, I did not detect any musical bandwidth limitations, nor any stereotypical class D artifacts with Veritas... I could hear only music.
The examination of further examples of new class D amps should confirm or disprove my hypothesis of class D designs having now grown up into general musical adulthood.
G. |
Hi AudioZen, I stand by all my favorable findings and conclusions in the article.
From a sonic point of view, I "judge the tree by its fruits", not by its roots... as Igor Stravinsky aptly recommended that we music lovers do back in 1946.
Granted, I am fascinated by amp innerds like anyone else, hence my relatively long treatment of Veritas internals. What will be interesting to determine is how different approaches to topology surrounding the NC1200 module in ATSAH, Veritas, Mola-Mola Kaluga, and Audience WavePower influence their sound. It is worth pointing out that Kaluga at least, does not use a stock NC1200 module, but a customized version.
How much of a "family resemblance" can be found in the audible attributes of these amps? I have no idea at this point in time.
Concerning Cardas connectors... Yes in a sense you are correct... Cardas output connectors may be a little fiddlier than other ones to operate. On the other hand, I am totally blind and am only mildly inconvenienced when fastening spade pairs to them. I can only imagine that a moderately operative pair of eyes would make the process close to painless. I recommend that if you want to use bananas, you may want to contact Merrill or Cardas and determine if Cardas2banana adapters can be supplied.
I agree with you... D-Sonic amps would make for fascinating review material. |
Mapman, for all audible parameters, I comfortably prefer the performance of the simple implementation of Ncore NC1200 in Veritas monoblocks over the old/discontinued Rowland M312 based on a relative complex implementation of ICEpower 1000ASP. In turns, I moderately prefer M312 over Bel Canto REF1000M (Mk.2) monos, which I much prefer over any other ICEpower amps I have heard over the years.
The article touches on my preference of Veritas over old M312.
G. |
Hi Audiozen, there are doubtless a number of worthy class D amps in the new generation.... I am looking forward to you examining a few up close in detail, and then letting us know your opinion on their actual sonic behavior. G. |
Uhrn... Audiozen, 'fore some further confusion is genrated... Fact is that Rowland is not using Pascal in any native mono amps at all at all at all. Conversely, Rowland has incorporated Pascal technology in one bridgeable amp the M525 ($4.5K), and in one integrated: the Continuum S2 ($9K). Hope you get one of them... I heard rumors that they sound very nice. |
Apologies Audiozen... You may want to verify your hypothesis at the source... Unless things have changed in the last couple of months, M125 is not based on Pascal technology. There is an ICEpower module inside it. Furthermore, M525 is not purely a stereo amp... It officially supports bridging to monoblock operations.
G. |
Hi Tan43, could you contrast the sound of your D-Sonic amp vs your previous Spectral setup? What are the strong points of D-Sonic, versus the strong points of the Spectral?
Thanks, G. |
Audiozen, this is fascinating... How does your D-Sonic M3 1200S stereo amplifier sound like... Please share your experiences with us. Long suffering audiophrenic minds want to know! G. |
Uhrn Audiozen, thank you for the staggering faith you have in the financial import of my scribblings... Regretably, my labors of love on PFO are only fit to fund tasty yet conservatively priced sushi rolls dinners three or four times a year, during 50% off days, for Mrs. C. and I. For the more mundane purpose of making a living, AT&T keeps me happily busy full time on arcane matters relating to FCC/CVAA.
In answer to your question, The lowest cost amp review project that I decided to submit for editorial review and eventual publication on PFO is the Bel Canto REF500 mono. A hypothetical D-Sonics project may be an interesting addition to my candidate queue. Conversely, I hope that you will share your findings on your very own D-Sonics amp with us before long.
Here is a question... D-Sonics appears to utilize both AbleTech and Pascal.... What criteria does D-Sonics apply when selecting between one of these two core module suppliers for its amps?
G. |
Thank you Audiozen. If I interpret correctly, D-Sonics may be using Abletech when maximizing a design for musicality; conversely, they implement with Pascal when maximizing for power... Is this more/less correct?
Could you qualify the term "much larger", and explain "application"?
G. |
OH... Why does D-Sonic favor Abletech in some models? If Pascal delivers higher power and is equally musical, where is the advantage of AbleTech modules for lower power implementations?
Do Pascal based and AbleTech based amps sound the same except for power rating?
Apologies AudioZen, I am seeking your live opinion. If you have not listened to these amps at all and rely on third party reports, specs, and images of internals only, please let us know.
G. |
Hi McBuddah, your experience is fascinating...
It is particularly interesting that proper seating / mechanical isolation make a significant difference for such low mass devices as the D-Sonics amps.... Nice data pointer for any future fiddlings on my part.
Can you tell us more about the sonic evolution of the amps past the 300 hours mark, and at what point did they stabilize?
Can you comment on performance/sonic differences with your old Atma-Spheres?
G. |
All, in case anyone were interested, here is the press release announcing Abletec's sale of its audio business to Etal Group. Please note that the url is slightly misleading... The title/H1 of the actual page is:
Abletec - Sale of Abletec Audio Business
http://www.abletec.com/news/abletec-acquires-anaview-ab
BTW Audiozen, when you offer lists of recommended readings, it would be helpful if you included appropriate URLs.
G. |
Thank you Strateahed, my current reference amp is the rowland M925 monoblock, which was not factored in the Veritas article. Conversely, In the Veritas review, I make minor mention of the M312 stereo, which was my reference in some past.
G. |
Audiozen, if I ever worked on an article project on Mola-Mola Kaluga, or an article project on the Martin amp, I would examine each device on its own merits. There will be no trouncing of any kind, one way or another.
It is worth pointing out that power supply capacity is a useful datapoint, but all by itself it is not sufficient to guestimate the overall sonic behavior/performance of a device.
G. |
Audiozen, as we live in a world of audiophilic uncertainty, where the relationship between performance and pricepoint is not always clear, I tend to shy away from aprioristic "more than likely" based on specs alone.
If Mola-Mola Kaluga and Martin make it to RMAF, I might be able to listen to them and at least get a vague idea of what they do for living.
In general, I leave trouncing to the world of contact sports.
G. |
I checked with US distributors about RMAF presence of Mola-Mola and Marten...
Mola-Mola Kaluga will be shown by On A Higher Note in Long's Peak on the mezanine level.
Sound Advice will not participate, and the Marten M amp is likely to be absent from the show.
G. |
Uhrn Audiozen, still living vicariously? Still no first hand findings?
Saluti, G. |
Gents, while Audiozen's humor can sometimes feel like a runaway freight train filled with "red herrings"... Let us continue this fun thread cheerily without excesses "ad hominem"... Hence, let us abandon references to cephalotropic procedures... as well as any potentially slanderous sillyness.... Or jesty pulling of Audiozenic legs on my part *grins!*
Now returning to our previously scheduled programming....
I have not read the review on the Pulk mentioned by Audiozen... Audiozen, if you can post the URL, I definitely will read it. From your remarks about it, it is clear that the reviewer has done at least one thing very right... He used the amps for 4 full months before offering final findings... Far too many audiophiles are hopelessly impatient, and give final findings well before a component has stabilized... And trust me... class D devices are real bears to reach the points where they deliver their very best.
To the best of my knowledge, there are currently three readily available sources of Abletech in the US, neither of which I have listened to... One of them being D-Sonics, on selected amps... The problem is that this manufacturer does not disclose whether he is using Abletech, Pascal, or anything else... The consumer must try to guess by matching power/current specs on the D-Sonic web site with AbleTech and Pascal specs and try to make a best guess... or find somewhere some pics that reveal the amp's internals.
The other source of Abletech amps seems to be TEAC/Esoteric with some of their entry-level amps... But here is the proverbial fly in the ointment... TEAC/Esoteric seems to be in transition... They seem to have transfered their Esoteric and possibly other consumer lines to the Integra division of Onkyo as of early October... TEAC/Esoteric was absent from RMAF, and I have no idea what Onkyo will be doing with these brands.
Marten amps have only token presence in the US at this time... There exists a distributor in California who appears to have marginal knowledge about the product, with one known customer in Southern CA... No I have not heard the amp, ence no conjectures nor comments about performance.
Now moving onto Pascal... Once again, there are reasons to believe that D-Sonics uses Pascal in some devices... But D-Sonic will neither confirm nor deny... Reminds me of Caspar Weinberger. I have not heard the amp(s)... Hence no findings.
Of higher price are the new Rowland M525 bridgeable amp at $4500 per chassis, and the Rowland Continuum S2 integrated selling in the $9K region. I have not heard M525, but listened several times to Continuum S2 during RMAF... Wonderful device for resolution and musicality... Leagues above the original Continuums based on ICEpower... But not having had Continuum S2 in my system, I cannot tell how its sound would compare to any Ncore amps... Let alone Abletech, which I have not heard at all.
And now Ncore NC1200 and derivates... besides the $12K Merrill Veritas monos that I have already reviewed, there are several other amplification systems that have adopted various forms of Ncore NC1200-based technology...
Mola-Mola Kaluga... To be released by CES 2014. $15.9K monoblocks... Heard at RMAF driving YG speakers... Extremely resolving and musical. Fascinating devices... Worth while examining in detail. I have created an entire new thread on these... See:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1382836646&openmine&zzGuidocorona&4&5#Guidocoronasted
Rowland M825 stereo ($32K) and M925 monos ($58K)(. Far from being basic implementations of NC1200, these are no holds barred assaults to what is possible by strting with Ncore technology in the output stage and surrounding them with state of the art I/O, power management, and power regulation. M925 is my own reference amp and it does sound amazing... I keep a diary of sort on Audiogon about my experience with it. See:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1369518273&openmine&zzGuidocorona&4&5#Guidocorona
Audience WavePower appears to be a promising design, and is in preproduction... Like the Rowland designs, it utilizes transformer coupling in the input stages ($18K)... Sorry I have not heard it yet.
ATSAH by Acoustic Imagery in the UK... THe least expensive of NCORE amps at $9K... I have not heard it yet and have no first hand information about internals, hence... I am not qualified to comment.
Bel Canto uses custom modules that are derived from Ncore NC1200 in its new Black System... Very nice sound and worth examining... Still in preproduction I believe... Sorry I do not remember the exact price, but it is a very unique combination of amplification and signal processing that addresses the market well above $20K
Grimm Audio showcased at RMAF its new powered speakers... Each speaker is powered by three Ncore-derived modules... Interesting... But a little peaky in their suite... I suspect the speakers may have been just off the factory floor.
Bottomline... prices for new class D amplification appears to range from under $1K to almost $60K... My general impression is that what I heard from Ncore and Pascal this far tends for me to be musically and sonically preferable to what I usually hear from classic class A, class A/B, old class D, or tube designs... But there is a lot that I have not heard yet.
G. |
Thank you Audiozen for encouraging me to contain the volume of my writing output... As you kindly point out, in quasi Zdanovian censoring zeal, there is no need for me to be expansive... I could be mercifully telegraphic instead,... If I enjoyed that form of terseness, of course, so to spare your limited patience. Unfortunately, I do not tend to the epigrammatic, but much prefer to freely share with my friends what I am excited about, and have experienced first hand, or at least I have learned from primary sources... Hence you might sadly expect my future scribblings to be comparably detailed and similarly tedius.
AudioPax vobiscum!
Papa Aloysius XXIV
(a.k.a. Guido) |
Hi Al, actually, Merrill has been pretty forthright in sharing Veritas technical detail... Short of revealing internal mechanical dampening matherials and methods, he gave me enough information for me to wax poetic about Veritas internals for about 1500 words in the PFO review... No wonder King AudioHenry VIII (oops... meant Audiozen) is now considering censorial procedures to decapitate my excessive prose in the most horrific of ways...
Audiopax vobiscum!
Papa Guido XXIV |
Luigy, your best bet is to be patient until McBuddah is able to post more D-Sonic findings.. In the meantime, here is the D-Sonic review mentioned by Audiozen:
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?142204-d-Sonic-M2-600M-monoblocks-amp-Pics.
Regards, G. |
Hi Luigy, my review projects are done in sequence, and take quite long.... Usually a few months each. I have a couple of amps and a couple of wire looms in my inbasket already . But at some point it would be interesting doing a DSonic amp... Will it be a Pascal-based or an AbleTech-based device?
Saluti, Guido |
Hi Mapman, you point out the potential problem exactly... While I evaluate the audible performance of a device purely on the merits of, well... Its audible performance, there are a number of components to any of my published scribblings.... And one of the components is an -- as musch as possible thorough -- ddescription of internals, based on my own informal transcription of my recorded discussion of published/publishable technical features, that I have had with the primary source... Usually this being the designer or the manufacturer.
I disregard completely any third party information that I am not able to confirm/corroborate from an open and willing primary source... Hence, third party reports of internal features are cheerily ignored... Nor do I go spelunking inside a component without written authorization by the manufacturer.
In general, doing a review of a mystery box is something that would leave me a little disconcerted. G. |
Luigy, I venture to conjecture that perhaps 2-way D-Sonics amps might be optimized for music... Let us know what you find out. G. |
Sorry, Jorge, I have not quite understood which D-Sonic amp you have purchased... Please let us know. G. |
I have just spoken to Dennis at D-Sonic... the new Anaview AMS 1000-2600 have been shipped to him by the oversees manufacturer, and are currently in transit to Houston (TX). Dennis believes that he might be able to start shipping amps using the new modules in less than one month.
As for audible differences from the previous versions, apparently Anaview has done some considerable work in reducing intermodulation in the treble region on the 2600 modules... I conjecture that this might yield sweeter and more textured treble, as well as more musical information in transients, because of smaller amplitude sidebands in the signal. |
Hi Dennis, why not post some tech info -- such as power conversion modules -- on the product page for each amplifier in the D-Sonic web site... Would reduce this kind of uncertainty in the obsessive audiophilic lore. G. |
Hi Tan, tell us about the rest of your system, including cabling, and what amps the D-Sonics are replacing... .... What music are you listening to... How is the sound different from the old amps?
G. |
