The Vansevers Reference level conditioners already have Cyro'd outlets.
If you don't have a Reference model, then Mike Vansevers will upgrade it for not much more per outlet than we paid Albert.
The Reference upgrade is also more than just the Cyro'd outlets. Since Mike gives a 15 year warranty, which would be voided if you took it apart, why mess with it yourself?
Have replaced the receptacles in my Inouye Line Conditioner with cryoed units. Absolutely the way to go. If you haven't, you're not hearing what your system can really do. The improvement I got from replacing the line conditioner receptacles was equal to the one I got from replacing the one at the wall, which was definitely more than I was expecting.
If Hdm says it, I'm sure it must be a worth while investment. I plan on doing it, I have not got to it yet.
I didn't order one, and I have no experience with anything cryo'ed, but how did all of you who ordered and installed these find the results to be?
Zaikesman, I have been wondering the same thing myself. If you want you can go to the thread, "Albert porter only needs 50" and read my painful but rewarding epic on this matter. Tere isn't many others who are commenting yet. Perhaps they haven't gotten around to installing them yet. My short answer is "three thumbs up"!
Maxgain- I have been following your oddessy closely. Haven't yet had time to install, and was trying to decide where to use them. I've got 4, thought I'd put one on the wall from my amps, one on the wall for my Chang, and then install the other 2 in the Chang (one for digital and one for analog). Any thoughts?
Sounds like the plan to me Swampwalker! You will be bowled over! My final daily update is forthcoming. I think Bevis would say, "Cryo,...cool".
Swampy, if it were me, I'd install just one of the wall outlets at first, so as to be able to make A/B comparsions between the regular outlet and the audiophile-approved one, before going whole hog and installing all of them. But that's just the sort of guy I am. :-)
Go for it Swampwalker! I stake any reputation I have as a listener on it! Zaikesman, RUN, DON'T WALK, to get yourself some of these! I do think you should get one that has been cooked first. I can send you a link if you want! You don't need an A/B comparison to hear this!
I really like the outlets that Albert Porter recommends. They really opened up my lean midrange on my clsIIz. It was similar improvement to the change made when I went from spm reference to valhalla speaker cables. I never thought that was possible for such little money!
Allow for break in time.
I guess the question is, does it make sense to "daisy chain" them by using at the wall AND in the Chang Lightspeed that I use now for source and pre-amp. I definately will change the wall outlet for my 2 amps and the wall outlet that the Chang plugs into.
Yes, change them in the Chang Lightspeed!
Maxgain: Of course, the true valid comparision would be to A/B two of the identical, brand new outlets, one cryo'ed and the other not, but this is unlikely to occur in many systems. While I don't take your enthusiasm or results lightly, even if I were to install one of these myself and had the same reaction you do, I would still wonder whether what I thought I heard could be due, at least in part, either to the mere fact that the outlet was new and newly installed (presumably any better quality new outlet might possess an advantage over an older - and therefore more oxidized - lesser quality outlet, and the installation process would probably expose freshly-bared wire ends for the in-wall connection), and/or the psychological expectation level inherent in the doing of all the work, combined with the unavoidable time delay involved. Still, I acknowledge that if, in the end, the listener is convinced something sounds better and they've gotten their money's worth, then it doesn't really matter about trying to test the change in some relatively objective way in order to help verify and quantify the difference (unless, that is, you are a listener like me, who is more comfortable psychologically in the long run if I can figure out a way to "prove" things to myself before declaring myself satisfied with what I've done). Nevertheless, I remain interested in knowing whether anybody actually has performed a real-time, side-by-side comparo between two otherwise identical outlets installed at the time, one cryo'ed and one not (or an equivalently rigorous test involving any catagory of cryo'ed part).
Yes,"daisy chain" them. That will work well.
Zaikesman, I understand your point and that's probably the type of guy I am also.
I also know from my blind A/B extensive testing that cryo'd outlets are the way to go unless one purchases the Wattgate 381. IMHO :-)
Zaikesman, I respect your thoughful and reserved approach. I am one who does not try to reinvent the wheel every year or even more often as some audiophiles do who belong to the cable or amp of the month. As far as reviewers go I like to read Moncreif/IAR as he does just what you are talking about.
Myself I am not reviewer and thus am not bound by any conventions and am free to explore and be spontanious. Yes there may be better scientific method if you are seeking explanations and quantification of results. I can toss all that baggage and do what makes my system come alive. This did and I could not be more excited about it. I have about, lets call it 20K worth of stuff sitting here,and $75 bucks makes it all work like never before. I guess I think everyone should experience it. So Zaikesman, be wild, let go this once, and forget the science and just listen to the MUSIC that comes out of your system. If I am wrong on this it's not like I am asking you to fire sale your whole system and follow me like the pied piper into a sonic netherword or worse yet some monitary black hole. I have to say that of anyone with a system that should be able to resolve something of this nature it is Albert. Compareing that thing(Albert's system)to my system is like compareing a lazer beam to a red christmas light! Albert seems to hear it and i do too. If you don't like the sound I am sure that you could sell it and not be out much. How many other audiophile boondoggles can you realy say that about.
To answer your question about if anyone has compared the cryo to the non cryo I am sure that Albert and Lak have. I am sure they would be more than happy to tell you their findings. At this point if someone took these damn things away I would cryo a river of tears! Or, it's my party and I'll cryo if I want to? You would cryo too.......
If cryo is really da bomb like you and others feel, I wonder when it will be that the first manufacturer goes to the trouble and expense of cryogenically treating every single internal part and piece of wire in a component that the treatment can be safely applied to? How about voice coils?
I'm not here to rain on anybody's cryo'ing game. As I alluded to above Maxgain, I've no doubt that for the results you perceive yourself to have gotten, this was the best bargain of your audiophile life. One thing that you should know about me, is that I treat enjoying these discussions and enjoying my system as two different things. My system will always be flawed, but hopefully the arguments I put forth here will be less so. All I'm wondering is how can you attribute with surity a large part of the difference you hear to the cryogenic treatment itself? Again, I grant you that the point tends to matter more in theory and on the page than it will in the listening room.
There is however a practical reason I even care about asking: I am definitely a good candidate for improved outlets at the very least, but knowing myself, I will feel silly getting them cryo-dipped (however inexpensively) unless I actually have a prior reason to believe that it will make my system sound better than it would have otherwise. (Hell, I'm not even sure about just the premium replacement outlet thing itself, never mind cryo'ing, but the duplex I'm using now is a 45-year-old 2-pronger with an adaptor stuck in it, so I can certainly justify doing something!) Anyway, I am open to leaps of faith as long as they're based on something reasonable, and thanks for the encouragement. :-)
I have done some research and talked to people much smarter than my self(my brother, for one, he is the guy that designed the integrated circuit chips for Motorola that made, you may have heard of it,the cell phone, possible). Cryo in my understanding changes the metal in a way that makes it more dense and more conductive. It seems to have the same effect as a single crystal in reducing the diode effect between the less dense non cryoed metal. More conductive= better flow of electrons=better performance of the circuits hooked to them!
My God you are a curmuddgen! I bet your Mom used to say to you all the time "if all those other boys jumped off a cliff, would you jump too?"
The biggest drawback I can find with cyro treating any electronic item is what seems to be the very long burn in time. I guess if I realy cared about it the same way you do I would have my old cheap 85 cent Leviton's sent out to be cry treated and then try them, but why? In reality their ARE some differences in the construction between my old stock contracrtor style outlets(which were in generally good condition, without gross signes of age) and the Hubbell's. The difference I hear is just too great for it to just be simple construction.If you have a philisophical adversion to cryo then buy the Wattgate for $150 which is said to be about as good sounding. I have heard other stock Hospital style plugs in other peoples systems do almost nothing other than give the system owner peace of mind. Why do you want to fight this so damn hard? I believe what careful listeners like Albert and other members have found and I just tagged along on their coat tails. All I know for sure is that it works! You Left brain types have it harder than us right brainers! The left brainer thing can drive me nuts sometimes. I have a fine arts degree and have been over exposed to the world of art crticism. An artist creates a work that comes from an affective state of mind. The critic comes up with alot of ivory tower, rhetoric nonsense to try to explain the asthetic and emotive intention of the artist(snotty white art babble), instead of just experiencing the beauty of the work and perhaps just enjoying it for what it is. You like music so their is a right brain aspect to your mind, go their and enjoy the beauty and quit trying to explain it. It's time to jump off the cliff with the rest of the boys!
Very sharp deduction about what my Mom used to say (may she rest in peace). Since your right brain is perceptive enough to figure that one out, do me a favor and tilt your gray matter to left for a sec, just enough to realize that cryo'ing could only increase a metal's density if it simultaneously reduced its volume ('cause it sure ain't gonna increase its mass! :-)
(Actually, that very phenomenon is certain to take place *when* the metal is immersed in the cryo-dip, since the relative lack of heat energy causes the metal to contract in volume - the constant mass therefore becoming more dense - but that condition won't persist as it warms back up to room temperature, as you can verify be the fact that your plug still fits into the unshrunken receptacle.)
Regardless though, it's not really *how* cryo'ing may work that I'm harping on (I've always considered myself to be a proponent of not letting arrogance dictate that we demand to 'explain' everything we hear, else declaring important subtleties 'imaginary' if we can't), but rather just to pause long enough to do a self-check that it *is* the cryo'ing making whatever difference we might find in this case.
Remember what I said about my enjoying the debate separately from enjoying the music. In fact, I would say it's you right brain types (and BTW, please know that I don't really buy into the right brain/left brain dichotomy deal either, and hereby reserve my perogative to be both-brained!) who actually have it harder - that is, when it comes to reveling in the forums! Thanks for playing along anyway...
Zaikesman: I have done some pretty heavy experimentation with a number of stock receptacles. I have a couple of Arrow Hart 8200's here (which have been hacked up a bit to fit properly in my line conditioner but are mechanically fine) and would be happy to send you one to experiment with. E-mail me your address if you're interested. I am no longer using these obviously, but feel that they are a pretty decent receptacle, but not as good as the Hubbell 52-53 series or 82-83 models. I am currently using the cryoed World Power 5362's, both at the wall and in my line conditioner and would not be without them. For $55, they are, in my opinion, an absolute bargain. FWIW, I was as skeptical as you and now have numerous receptacles about the house: my washer and gas dryer are running off an Arrow Hart 8200, and my refigerator, as well as downstairs freezer are running off Pass and Seymour 5262's and 5242's. In any event, I'm happy to send you the AH as I am confident that it will be better than what you have (if not, send it back to me!) and may lead you on to better things.
Kaikesman, am I to take it that you feel I'm not holding my own in the debate?
Do you want to read some info on cryo? I can direct you to some sites that may answer some of your questions and perhaps raise new ones.
Not 'not holding your own', Laxbrain, not enjoying it as much! (Spell mine right, I'll spell yours right :-)
Info would be great, answers are great, questions are even better. Direct away, with my thanks.
Hdm, you make an offer I can't refuse (unless the shipping costs more than the outlet is worth!). Thanks, and I'll email you later so we can take it offline.
Zaikesman, what a grouch! Typing ain't my specialty.
Go to www.audioexcellence.com then to the world power link at the bottom of the home page. This will have some info and a link to Cryogenics International. Check it out.
I don't need to win this so called debate. If you don't have $65 I understand, times ARE hard. In the end it's just your loss if you don't try one. Like the French soldiers said to King Aurthur,in Monty Python's, "Search for the Holly Grail",when he informed these soldiers gaurding the castle that he was on a quest seeking the grail they replied, "We already got one... Now go away or I will taunt you a second time"
I have already left a trail of bread crumbs for you to follow. Hurry before birds eat it!
Ok, Zaikesman I guess you have good reason to be a bit testy today. I hope your system is back up and running soon!
This is a fun thread. I thank you two gentlemen for not using email to converse this very pertinent topic about... what is the topic again?
Anyhow, I do not wanna question what people hear and can't hear. But, like Z-man, I question the physics used to explain just WHY does cryo improve sound quality.
It would make a lot more sense to me if metal is heated up to near melting point under intense atmospheric pressure. Then gradually, over a very very long period of time, allow the metal to return back to its original environment.
You know, this is how crystals are formed, as the molecules cools and settles, the minieral takes the shape of the mineral that makes up its composition.
I can only GUESS that cryo treating does something to the shape of how the mineral's, in this case outlets, molecular structure to be more uniform similar to crystalization. This would allow smoother and higher conductivity?
Yah, oh, Max, Z is not next to K on the qwerty. ;^ )
Viggen follow the link I gave to Zaikesman if you are interested. You are pretty well on with your guess. here is the short cut to the technical info. www.cryogenicsinternational.com
Sorry, Maxgain - you misundertake me, though. The debate isn't for 'winning', but maybe that's why you don't get off as much on just the having of it as I do. That's cool. (And I realized your mistake was surely a typo, it just happened to be a particularly unfortunate one, given the pronunciation of my username!) Of course I have the money to spend on an outlet, but that's not the point. What I don't have is the money to spend on every possible tweak or improvement that comes down the line (as I'm sure few of us do) - but even more importantly, I like to direct my energies (and monies) based on my own thinking. I do not have a closed mind toward cryo (like I did toward say, little wooden disks), I'm just a tough nut is all. Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.
This is starting to remind me of Audiogon two years ago with ___________, I'm not going to mention names! ;-)
Zaikesman(I checked the spelling twice) what you fail to glean from what I have been TRYING to tell you is that this anin't no "tweek"! This anin't no, well I think I heard something did you hear something, sort O'thing. This ain't no, well maybe it gave me a 1% improvment sort O'thing! It ain't no, gee I think it improved that a bit but screwed everything else up in the process, sort O'thing! This is a real honest to God, WOW, how the hell did I listen to it without that sort O' thing that improves virtually every aspect of the sound and I can say seems to have no ill effects, no trade offs! What the hell else can do that for $65? If you know please hurry the hell up and tell me cuz I am gonna darn well get me one! That is why I am preaching about this like some demented sky piolot! If you ain't got one you NEED one! Period!
Hdm, I'd like to know how your appliances are performing with the receptacle upgrades.
Hey Drubin: My clothes are now so clean that acquaintances are constantly asking me questions like they do to that guy on the Viagra commercial and sometimes when I open the fridge there is stuff in there that just magically has appeared; it's wonderful! To be serious, I can't really say whether they've done anything in that application. Perhaps I'll just pull up a "listening chair" in front of the freezer some day for some "critical listening". In any event, I'm in a 35 year old house and the receptacles (particularly the freezer and washer/dryer units) that I replaced were pretty grim in the "grip department". I can recall reading somewhere (think it was UHF magazine) that they actually recorded the time it took for a kettle to boil with a standard cheapie receptacle as compared to a spec. grade or hospital grade model they sold and the kettle boiled significantly faster with the better receptacle, but I've never done any experimentation in that area!
Man, I almost forgot the best part: my freezer is now working so well that I can do my own CRYO! Heheheheh!
Thanks Drubin and Hdm, this thread needed that. (Lak, don't worry. I think.)
Easy there Maxgain my friend, you win, I surrender. If and when I do try a cryo'ed outlet (or anything cryo'ed, I suppose), and I get the kind of result you are raving about, *and* I can determine that it was the cryo treatment that deserves the credit, I will most assuredly return to this thread and bow before you. (I have to warn you though, I have had new *amps* not make *that* much improvement in my system!) Now, how about a nice steamy cup'o Ovaltine and we kick back and chill?
(Hdm - so you'll be cryo'ing that outlet for me, right? :-)
No problem Zaikesman-the deluxe Hdm cryo treatment!
Amazing the amount of heat a little liquid Nitrogen can generate!
It's for his own good. Now this won't hurt......
Zaikesman, I don't want anyone to bow before me.You would think that I had just spoken in tounges, drank poison,rolled on the floor, and played with a rattle snake!(although it was sort of like that to get you to at least listen to me)
I just think it would be fun if it put a big smile on your face. Might be ever more satisying since you resist it so much. Seems like you need a grin or two after the other night.
Thanks, and don't take it personally Maxgain - I resist everything! Back to you, Swampwalker, over & out.