Considering switching from Audio Research to PrimaLuna, troube with VS115 amp

Any "shoot-off" ought to be with the 5x more expensive ARC Ref 6 and the twice as expensive Ref 150SE. Why? Because PrimaLuna claims to be giant-killers so walk the walk! I have no doubt the PL stuff presents tremendous value but also no doubt it does not come close to the best. The top of the line PL pre-amp in particular is a weak link as measurements prove the subjective impression that it puts out a lot of 2nd harmonic distortion. The PL pre-amp is also not designed in a true balanced configuration-an almost universal quality of the best sounding pre-amps. PL seems to either fail to realize or simply ignores that pre-amps are the heart of any great system. Like the addage in golf, "drive for show, putt for dough", PL seems to "show" the amps and has the yips putting for dough when it comes to the critical pre-amp. IMHO PL puts marketing over true state of the art performance. No surprise, the top of the line PL monoblocks accept single ended inputs only. Again, I have no doubt the PL gear represents above-average value but there is no getting around the high level of coloration caused by the second harmonic distortion. 

That all sounds very familiar with things written on the same subject in the past Aolmrd1241 but my criticism of the PL Dialogue Premium in not limited to the high amount of second harmonic distortion it puts out. PL puts out entertaining-even refreshing-ads touting that no piece of audio kit is as overpriced as the pre-amp and fails to back up the talk with a top-drawer pre-amp. They evidently need to hire a better engineering team and implement better parts, which means raising the price. I will repeat-it appears to be a nice piece, and built like a tank, but it's more of a Buick Roadmaster than a BMW 7 Series. 

I confess to not having heard the Dialogue Premium. Watch Fremer's videos of the ARC factory tour on youtube. It takes a week to hand-build a Ref 6 at AR's Minnesota factory. Every transistor is stuffed and soldered by hand, all assembly in every other aspect is by hand, parts are not only proprietary but are not shared from one model to the next, and after each piece gets measured, it does not leave the factory until Warren Gehl listens to it. Do you think that's the way of things with PL? Cheap labor saves a lot of money but there are far larger differences that account for the price differential. Point to point is very nice, It does not make one piece of gear better than another. 

I'm biased (pun) as hell. After strongly considering the PL Dialogue and AR LS28 I decided to go whole hog with the Ref 6 which I paid for but don't even have yet! Next week. I hope to get an ARC Ref 150SE too. I can't afford either but my sons are grown and through college and my view is that it's all gravy after that. At 58 I decided life is short. I've done a lot of relatively worthless research (pun again) but there is no substitute for listening in one's own room with own associated gear. This entire dialogue (arghh) has gone a bit sideways. It was never about comparing ARC's best with PL and I think I'm to blame for that. OP, I own a VS110 and it's built like a tank but yes, resistors fail on purpose with tube arc (double arghh) and you need to find a local technician to replace the resistor. Normally this is so routine that even enthusiasts good with a soldering iron and who have seen it done once can do it. Granted, your ultimate problem warrants a trip to Minnesota and it's a shame you lost so much on tubes. If by any chance you decide to keep the VS115 you want to replace the driver tubes with Russian Military grade 6H30's and the output tubes with Sovtek 6550's from Kevin. The output tubes at $40 each are a bargain! I tried much more expensive output tubes in my VS110 and it was Kevin who suggested the less expensive Sovteks and my SQ and reliability went up. Kevin does know his stuff. So back to ARC Ref stuff-we enthusiasts buy based on perceived quality and looks. It becomes a belief system. What can I say, in ARC I trust. Oh, one last thing Kevin, should you happen to see this; twice now you've mentioned this six-position testing regimen. What in the hell does that have to do with anything? Do gravitational forces effect electrons flowing through a piece of kit? Now you sound like one of those self-proclaimed space/aerocraft engineers! These are NOT chronometers! (I am a watch guy too). Oh, I lied. One more thing-by state of the art standards, Alps Blue Velvet volume controls are universally viewed as mediocre/undesirable. With any pre-amp, the volume control is absolutely critical. 

I have not heard an ARC Ref 6. I am sure that it sounds great. But...way out of my price league. I do know for sure though...that at five times the cost of the PL...I would bet dollars to donuts it certainly does not sound "five times better" than the PL.

You sound like a good guy aolmrd1241. Like that silly commercial on TV where the lady is talking to her clone on the phone, "I like you". Without a doubt there is not a 5x difference in SQ. You know that on multiple levels. I was strongly considering the PL Dialogue Premium with a pair of the Dialogue Premiums set up as monoblocks. I even talked to Kevin Deal about them-naturally he did all the talking :-) (funny if you know KD). I would love to have auditioned them in my room. I was impressed when JA was reviewing a set of high end speakers (the new lower priced Magico?) and couldn't get the bass to sound right til he tried swapping the $3400 PL integrated into the system in place of far more expensive gear. The one remaining brick and mortar shop in my area is both an AR and PL dealer and the main guy at that shop owns AR gear (and happens to be an expert on VPI too). They stock neither as it seems home theater gear keeps the lights on. Even he has not heard the amps but has sold and listened to the pre. I will stop there. I fully understand those who question the prices of AR gear-I harbor a little of that thought too. They even do their very best to prevent any AD from offering any discount! And on top of all that, I think most would agree that they have released a flop or three in their 47 year history. Read Charles Hansen's comments about his latest amplification-he admits that until recently he failed to understand just why great tubed gear is magical and failed to prioritize that sound in his solid state gear. The magic of AR's top gear is that it has that magic without going overboard. That quality is very rare. 

Roger Modjeski, when addressing my audiophile society, noted that high quality line stage preamps are something that manufacturers should have under control, the principles being well understood.

Not that I have Mr. Modjeski's credentials (de nada, I'm a lawyer who can't replace a house electrical box switch), but I agree with him.That said, there's a huge difference between a "high quality" preamp and one that delivers that elusive magical quality that many of us lust for. Charles Hansen gave Sasha Matson of S'Phile an interview published in the July 2016 issue and he describes what I am referring to best (sorry for the long quote but anything shorter fails to convey the point);

SM: At this point, is the tired old debate of solid-state vs tubes over?

CH: Yes and no. It kind of goes back to the best of times and the worst of times. There are two different things going on. There's the surface, and what is underneath the surface. On the surface, things have been converging for a long time, and that's what you read about. But then there are some writers that talk about what is under the surface. When you read something from Art Dudley or Herb Reichert, they aren't talking about soundstaging or imaging or resolution—or all these terms that first [J.] Gordon Holt [founder of Stereophile] and then Harry Pearson [founder of The Abso!ute Sound] came up with. What it boils down to is that when you listen to music, it makes you feel a certain way, and that's why you listen to it. It's not because it sounds a certain way. And how do you talk about your feelings? So the sound of tubes and the sound of transistors have been converging—but what about the feeling?

I didn't really understand it for a long time. When I first made the Ayre MX-R amps and KX-R preamp, I thought, Okay we've done it. We've made stuff that is so good it's as good as tubes—why would you bother with tubes? But I would still get customers and manufacturers who would say, "Yeah, that's nice, but I'm still sticking with my tube piece, because you haven't got there yet." And one of my weaknesses, for better or worse, is that I have such a big ego, I don't have to listen to other kit. I just listen to my own designs. If I had, I would have known what they were talking about.

When we made the KX-R Twenty, we took all our ideas we had been working on for 20 years, and getting feedback from people who were able to teach me how to listen better, and what to listen for—20 years of hard work. And then I hooked up the KX-R Twenty and I went, "Holy cow! This is what they were talking about. No wonder they didn't want to listen to solid-state—this is what they wanted to hear." It just hit me: This is what all those tube nuts were talking about. I would send stuff off to these dyed-in-the-wool tube guys, and they would say, "Nope, it's gotta have a tube in it or it's never going to work right. No, it's just sand. How can it sound right?"

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/charley-hansen-wizard-boulder#yIxjlPqiVQzUfxSQ.99

Kevin;
You're a good guy too! I could not agree more about Rolexes and anyone who even casually reads the watch boards knows that what you say is true. Do you know about the NOMOS Tangomat? German made rather than Swiss, but movement is made in-house with incredible precision and decoration. A fraction of the price too, compared to any of the names you list.If you like the look, MyChrono is the place to buy-steep discount!
So now on to the discussion at hand. I will pass on the rotational thing. I could take a cheap jab that it shakes out extra resistors that the robot threw in during assembly. You refer to dual mono as did Herb Reichert-I do NOT believe any of the PL products are TRUE dual mono BALANCED designs. Consumers are mislead as to the distinction.As to the volume pot, measurements don't tell the whole story. once again. There is no measurement for how a volume control SOUNDS. I agree with you that chip-controls are shite. The VSI75 you keep referring to is an unfortunate "lifestyle" piece from ARC with obvious compromises. I have complete faith the volume pot in the Ref 6 is light years better sounding than the ubiquitous Alps Blue Velvet. My el cheapo Little Dot headphone amp has that exact same volume pot! And contrary to popular belief-including my own until being educated on the subject), most experts agree that ladder or resistor-stepped attenuators, while damned good, do not sound the best. You won't find them in the top ten widely admired present-day preamps. Charles Hensen has much to say on that subject too.

Btw, Uncle Kev, being a man of average bordering on above average intelligence, I get your Rolex analogy, but don't agree it's true most of the time, particularly with the reputable brands. Look inside the Oyster case of an ARC Ref 6 and tell me that you're not impressed. And sometimes the inside looks plain and mostly empty and yet many hours were spent assembling, testing, and getting incredible sound, like Belles or the Pass Aleph series. I think there's a lot of truth in your clever refreshing advertising and a little pure marketing mixed in.

By the way...congrats on a bad-ass preamp.  I would also guess you will get the matching amp at some point and it will look and sound beautiful.  Every time I get something a little nicer I'm always happy years later.  That's for sure!!

Thanks-very gracious of you. I'm replacing some pretty old tubed separates with the Ref 6 and a Ref 150se, both new. I can swing it (just barely) and I'm stoked as can be. I've lusted for ARC Ref level gear for quite a few years now. I was looking hard at the PL Dialogue Premium HP's to use as monoblocks but the input impedance was not a perfect match and I want to run balanced. Of the two, I am more excited over the Ref 6, I believe that other than choice of cartridge which we swap in and out more regularly, the preamp is the most critical component. 

You can’t "demo" an amp at a store. Or a preamp. There is only one way to really make a comparison and that is level-matched, and hot, playing the exact same music. That’s how we do it. The aural memory isn’t good enough. I have really good ears and tons of experience. I can’t do it, and people that think doing it any other way are fooling themselves.

I respectfully disagree. Just not practical or even meaningful. You have to intently listen for three-four weeks to one and then to the other and rely on your gut as to which made you happier.  Two months with one and then the other and then switching back and then vice-versa is even better. 

As to the ARC house-sound, most including me would describe it as big, in-your-face, not overly tube-y but wonderful midrange, a bit forgiving or shelved down in the high treble, and except for the very top shelf stuff, a bit soft on leading transcients in the low bass. Very detailed in a non-fatiguing fashion living up to the "High Definition" moniker.

I hear you-one Sasha White built custom Speedvagen with Campy Record and Enve wheels and one Rob English custom built with Campy Record and Enve wheels. Could have gone Super Record but I had to show some restraint. Both weigh right around 15 lbs.

Arrange the comparison and I will do my best to show up.

Speaking of ARC reference amps, I was fortunate enough to sit through an audition of REF250SE, REF6 with Sonus Faber's Lilium speakers....l was quite blown away by larger than life soundstage, imaging and a sense of realism.

That's close to my combo of Ref 6 and Ref 150SE. As soon as I have them in place with some listening time I will report back. My front ends are a VPI Prime SS Zephyr MIMC into a Manley Steelhead and an Aurender N100H into an Abbingdon Music Research DP777.

Skyhawk-please keep in mind that the VS115 came out in 8/2018. Amp technology may not change that much but parts quality keeps improving. Plus, how many owners owned your VS115 before you, how did they treat it, and how many times was it shipped? And btw, the LS15 came in two versions, one better than the other. Which do you have. Neither come close to the LS18. Sell 'em off, buy the PL stuff-I bet it sounds great- and report back. But all that said, your mental construct-just my worthless opinion-is a bit skewed. Skewed because ARC gear is dependable (all of PL's marketing has zilch to do with preventing tube arc) and because the critical parts of recent vintage ARC gear is far superior to that of PL.

Should have read "LS 28". Date wrong, no; the VS115 came out in Jan 2008, just shy of 10 yrs ago. I ask again-how many owners before you obtained it? How do you know whether it saw gentle use or hard? How do you know it had been shipped properly each time?

I bet the PL sounds as good or better. But what about your Dialogue Premium pre and amp separates vs. an LS28 and VT80?

Not me. I will be on a plane most of Saturday. Sorry I can't make it.

Going up will reap some benefits, but not as large as going up in amps.

This is the fun debate. Kevin is not the only one with tons of experience/knowledge who believes this and just as many with equal experience and knowledge say the opposite. I don't like repeating myself. There are many more superlative amps than preamps in this world. That about sums it up. Let me ask this; if Kevin's claims about the PL preamp were true, why does the listening comparison set for this Saturday have nothing to do with his preamp vs. an Ayre, C-J, Coincident, VTL, or ARC benchmark level preamp? Why is it an integrated vs. an integrated? Taking a different approach, my AMR DP777 has many fans who believe it to be one of the best available DAC's and AMR's very talented chief designer/engineer claims it offers a top level built-in preamp. It's fine, but boring. My Manley Steelhead again features claims that it can be used as a top level preamp. It's fine but not great. 99.8% of dedicated preamps/linestages are competent but damn the rest of the system down-chain to being merely competent. Kevin is just plain wrong-amps are at their heart the simplest of electronics- not preamps. Amps do nothing more than regulate the energy coming out of your wall.

Kevin you keep bringing up the Cary AE-3DJH. Since when was it ever a standard-bearer? Never. It was never more than a very nice preamp FOR THE PRICE. http://www.stereomojo.com/AES%20Super%20Amp%20and%20AE-3%20preamplifier%20review/AESSuperAmpMk2andAE...

Amplifiers are falsely believed to be capable of storing and unleashing massive amounts of power if built like tanks when in fact they can only control (regulate) the power available from the wall. Amplifiers should be thought of as faucets and not as water towers.

Preamps have the task of handling low level signal without degrading it. This is much more difficult to implement at a superb level than the task at hand for an amp-regulating AC to DC. As someone else has pointed out, PL has taken traditional but dated basic circuit designs, added some user-friendly features, built them to tank-like standards, and at great prices. All fantastic stuff, but please don't tell me or anyone that any single PL pieces bests any $25,000 piece. Maybe they are better than a very few ridiculously overpriced mediocre pieces of gear but those pieces are doomed to fail in the marketplace. 

Why take a good thing and depart from the real to the absurd? 

It's been fun reading. I am not surprised at the impressions and that is meant only as a complement to PL. While I have difficulty swallowing Herb Reichert's standard deviations away from objectivity, there can be no doubt the PL gear is solid based upon the favorable comments in S'Phile. I believe that Kevin Deal and I have talked past one another on the issue of preamps but such is neither here nor there. Generally speaking, modern ARC gear tends to be fairly "in the middle" between classic tube and ss sound and I understand PL to be a bit more on the tube side of the spectrum. Prolonged time with the gear (months, not minutes) would likely bear that out. It is always possible that the Focals impedance curve lessened the difference. The critical interplay between speaker characteristics and tube amps has been explained by Ralph Karsten of Atma Sphere here; http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php
Don't get me wrong-the friendly comparison seems fine. For perfectly selfish reasons, I would love to read about a similar comparison between ARC's top gear-let's say the Ref 6 and Ref 150se vs the top PL separates. That would tell us whether PL can claim to be giant-killers-even if they simply pull even-or are instead simply great value. One related issue which brings us back to the OP, I think, has been glossed over-ARC gear has typically used resistors as the "fuse" for malfunctioning tubes but is it because ARC is just lazy/non-caring/behind-the-times or do other options ultimately degrade the signal/sound? Read any reference you wish on tube amp design-this one is good; http://ken-gilbert.com/images/pdf/taste_of_tubes.pdf and you will see that there is nothing new under the tube amp sun. So why is it that at the very same time, PL makes it sound as though it's auto-biasing and protection circuits are revolutionary? Even evolutionary? 

"You are buying a fabulous statement product that will serve you well. Both the preamp and amp are beauties. I don't know if you said what you plan to do about speakers? "

Come visit you and audition some Focals 😀 It could happen. I've been in the hobby for 40 years since at age 18 using my restaurant dishwashing job to buy Large Advents, a Sansuii 991(?) receiver and a BIC turntable. Then came constant upgrades particularly once out of law school. At age 30 or so I bought a pair of the original B&W Matrix 805's, a McCormack DNA.5 SE and a McCormack preamp (the passive buffered one whatever the model number might be).  JPS Labs made a device called "Golden Flutes" that were powered by wall warts and went in between the amp and speakers to boost the bass response and I had those. Then came the MCAudio "Full Monty" upgrade following the shuttering of McCormack. Next I replaced the passive preamp with an Audio Prism Mantissa and then came Acoustic Zen Adagios when they were the budget hot item and then a NOS ARC VS110 (a well-to-do audiophile bought two with the second as a back-up and it sat in a closet for 7-8 years in its original packaging). With the digital player market in gear I tried a PC based music server and then upgraded to the much smaller and easier Aurender N100H with an Abbingdon DP777 dac. Then came a return to vinyl with too many tables and phono stages to list but I've settled down with a Manley Steelhead and two tables that sit on wall mounts flanking each side of my main equip rack-a VPI Prime with the Phoenix PS and tach and a fully restored Thorens TD124. My dad bought the Thorens in 1959 and after daily use when I was a kid my dad left it sitting idle for 25 years when CD's emerged in '84 or so. I had just read Art Dudley's piece on restoring a used TD124 and while visiting my parents one day I asked my dad if he still had the Thorens. I suspected it might be a 124 but was not sure. As soon as I saw it again after all that time I was happy as a clam-Dad was happy to give it to me-it no longer ran. I lusted for the ARC Ref 6 as soon as it came out-I never liked the looks of the toggles on ARC preamps. The ARC GS150 sure looks better than the Ref 150 SE but they are identical but for the chasis and meters (I confirmed with ARC) and the price differential.... Sorry for the long historical background.

I need either standmounts or small floorstanders. i have a dedicated room but its on the small side.

our suggestion to customers to use Google images before dropping a dime on ANY HiFi purchase.

With nothing but respect, I humbly disagree. Let me throw out two extremes. Back in the heyday of BAT, consumers IMHO were looking at the fancy round-cased transformers and impossibly complex circuits filled edge to edge with various parts and buying/perceiving based on the visual more than the audible. I don’t mean to comment that BAT was bad or overrated but instead on consumer behavior.
The other extreme is this; https://www.stereophile.com/content/croft-acoustics-phono-integrated-integrated-amplifier
It looks humble/ugly, it has a paucity of parts, it does not measure well. But good heads/ears love the sound.
I can’t think of a single other hobby in which-to such a large degree- the consumers buy with their eyes and not their ears/brains. Particularly with loudspeakers. I too am guilty. You can’t judge with your eyes. Period.

https://www.southampton.ac.uk/~apm3/diyaudio/Croft_top3.jpg

Here's a pic I was looking for-look how the Wondercaps (I presume) are assembled askew-for the shortest possible signal path. Kevin-Art Dudley has a penchant for looking at what he considers to be good-value build quality and scoring points with readers as an audio consumer advocate. He loves to see simple casework and point-to-point-he does after all worship at the alter of Shindo and Garrard. I don't disagree with his particular viewpoint (pun) but it again ultimately means little. Look at Plinius. One look and you would think some designer thought he could forge a market with over-the-top casework and mediocre electronics but that would be a wrong assumption too. Getting again to the point, your gear IS built well and designed to give the buyer a very trouble-free tubed amp/preamp/integrated. Commendable stuff. But you can't pick good gear with your eyeballs. Watches-yes, audio gear no. Hey, it's a wonder Harbeth is still in business with their homely loudspeakers but obviously as soon as people hear them they get over any concerns that they are like "mom's idea of a nice girl with a good personality".