Considering analog...but nervous

I wrote a post last night in response to your thread, but accidentally closed the tab with the response - I'll try again, because you pose good questions that many new audiophiles have:

"1. One of the biggest things that has kept me from trying Vinyl thus far is the concern of excessive hiss and crackle/pop that vinyl is known for. Is it safe to assume that purchasing new Vinyl and played on a higher quality setup will reduce (eliminate?) the pops and crackle sounds? I have no problem purchasing exclusively new vinyl, knowing full well that the process of shopping used is what draws so many to this market..."

Ticks, pops and hiss are not an issue if certain precautions are taken. First, and to directly respond to your question, new vinyl is unfortunately not always free from ticks and pops, and if you search the threads, you'll find many people complaining of noise with brand-new, $50 LP's from all of the major reissue labels. That said, most new vinyl is fine and many are completely noise-free. As for used LP’s, it is pretty easy to determine which used vendors accurately rate the condition of LP’s they sell, and that will eliminate most regretful purchases – I tend to prefer older LP’s, as many are fantastic and really cheap.

When you receive a new or used LP (and this will address another question you asked), it has to be cleaned with a vacuum record cleaner, in the case of new LP’s, in order to remove the mold release agent used to prevent the LP from sticking to the matrix when it is minted (mold release functions like Pam), and in the case of used LP’s, to remove whatever dirt the LP accumulated up until the time you received it. Next, careful, professional set-up is crucial to minimizing noise, particularly with some of the more modern styli types (e.g., line-contact). If you clean the record and your rig is set up properly (and in the case of used LP’s, you have purchased from a reliable vendor), noise will not be an issue with most LP's. There will always be dud LP's that are simply inherently noisy, either because of a lousy pressing or because of improper care by prior owners, but the percentage of duds is about like the percentage of dud CD's that feature compressed dynamics, and glassy, unlistenable highs, among other problems. Another point about LP’s and noise - it is somewhat music genre-specific. Noise is almost never an issue with rock, pop and blues albums because of the quantity of musical information in the grooves - you can't hear it once the band starts, even with dirty records. On the other hand, noise can be a real issue with solo acoustic instruments like solo piano and accapella voice. Finally, modern belt-drive turntables (and the small handful of today’s very high-end direct-drive tables) have much lower noise levels than the tables most people used during the analog era. In summary, if you have a modern table that has been carefully set up and you have properly cleaned the LP, noise is not the issue – just as with CD’s, the quality of the recording, not the medium (whether LP or CD), becomes the issue.

“2. If I purchase new vinyl, only play it on a decent player, and store it properly, will I still have to clean it? How expensive is a cleaning machine? Are there (reasonable), less expensive alternatives to a cleaning machine?”

New and used vinyl must be cleaned with a vacuum cleaner as described above. The entry-level VPI vacuum cleaner, which is a good unit, now lists for $650 and you should be able to get a new one for at least 10% off the list price – they occasionally appear on the used market. You should buy new record sleeves for any used LP’s that you buy. Once you vacuum clean a record, it will generally not need to be vacuum-cleaned again for many playings (I might clean mine once every 25 plays), assuming you only grasp it by its edges and immediately return it to its sleeve and jacket when you’re done playing it. However, before I play any side, I place a Hunt EDA carbon-fiber brush ($30) at a 45-degree angle to the side for two or three revolutions to pick up any large dust particles. I do the same after I have played the side. This is all the cleaning that is necessary. To summarize, new and used records just acquired must be cleaned with a vacuum cleaner – there are no alternatives if you are running a good analog rig in a high-resolution system – and thereafter can be maintained as described above.

“3. Based on my integrated (tube-pre, SS amp) and speakers, are these a good match for Vinyl? Does anyone know if the KW 500 Phono input is adequate for a good turntable? My digital system has a tendency to be on the bright side for a lot of material, but not everything. Strangly, even at 31 years old, I can still hear up to around 19Khz so I'm a bit picky about the highs...”

Your system is not a “good match” for vinyl – based upon what you have written about your hearing, the brightness in your system, and your statement that “I am all about soundstage and imaging”, vinyl is a NECESSITY for you. First, regarding the quality of the on-board phono stage in your integrated amp, I do not have first-hand knowledge, but I do know that the more expensive Musical Fidelity gear is high-end gear – the phono stage should be fine (a good stand-alone unit with proper interconnect to your integrated would be better, but you’re probably fine). A properly set-up vinyl rig will generally layer space and image much better than a digital rig – it is one of vinyl’s strong suits. That said, if you primarily listen to multitrack-recorded pop / rock / blues recordings, you will be largely wasting what vinyl can do because the staging and instrument placement is destroyed by the miking techniques and multitracking. On the other hand, well recorded classical music or acoustic jazz on a decent pressing, and again assuming proper set-up, will have you jumping from your seat and screaming “Wow!” One of the two big problems with typical digital is what it does to the highs – it is glassy and unnatural – and this will be exacerbated by your Focal speakers, which use high-quality Beryllium tweeters. I listen to mostly orchestral music, and digital is seriously flawed with orchestral because of the high-frequency harmonics coming from string sections – listen to a violin through an analog rig, even a really cheap one, and then listen on a $10k digital rig – vinyl sounds like a violin and digital sounds wrong and unpleasant. One caveat, however – the resonances occurring in many expensive moving-coil cartridges cause a rising (i.e., excessive) response in the high frequencies that can make a system somewhat bright if not addressed (... there are ways). At your price range, however, you will likely end up with a moving-magnet cartridge that will generally not have such a problem. In summary, an audiophile who cares about high-frequency performance, unless he/she has the money to purchase a top, top digital rig, needs analog.

“4. How complicated is the setup of the TT? Being that I've never worked with it before, I'm somewhat intimidated by the "setup" requirements of the equipment. What are the core requirements/knowledge to properly setup a TT.”

Quite complicated - getting the most out of an analog rig requires precise, professional set-up, and most people who think they know how to properly install a table, arm and cartridge do not know what they’re doing. The best course of action is to investigate in an attempt to find the very best set-up person in your geographic area. That said, given your budget and the types of music you listen to, you are a good candidate for a Rega table with Rega cartridge. The cartridge is pre-installed and all set-up parameters automatically addressed due to the fact the cartridge is made for that particular table and arm – you just need to place the table on a proper stand and make very certain that the table is precisely leveled. Rega’s quality is good, especially the arm, and they are particularly good for rock and pop because the cartridge is high output and a very good tracker, but it will not perform like a better table and arm, with a good moving-coil cartridge, assuming proper set up. In summary, a decent analog rig will smoke your digital rig with respect to staging and naturalness, particularly in the highs. I also prefer analog dynamics - good digital rigs have greater dynamic range than analog, but so many digital recordings are compressed that you can't use it - older LP's and properly mastered new LP's can have more satisfying dynamics. (NB: I should have noted from the outset that my comments about digital here are limited to PCM - full DSD playback has thunderous dynamics.)

“5. And finally, the most subjective question of all. If I had a budget of about $1,000-$1,500 for a TT, Tonearm and Cartridge, what would be a good starting place? I'd obviously be looking for used here from Agon.”

A Rega P-5 plus Rega Elys cartridge is probably $1,200 (the cheaper P-3 24 is also a good high-entry-level table), plus you need a vacuum cleaner, carbon-fiber brush, and appropriate stand for the table. If you could go up to $3k, you can get a high-end used table, excellent arm, and good moving-coil cartridge that would play in a much higher league.

Hope this helps.

I started to type out a post in this thread a few days ago about suspended versus mass-loaded tables, and then bagged it because I feared it would scare people off. Tables tend to come in two varieties, suspended or mass-loaded, whereby the designer attempts to address airborne and physical vibrations via suspensions or mass-loading. Tables with suspensions deal with vibration by suspending part or all of the plinth and platter with springs, rubber grommets or rubber bands, etc. Examples are the Linn LP12 and the Basis tables. Mass-loaded tables address vibration by using engineered materials (something that's typically heavy or dense or otherwise structured to affect vibration, like carbon fiber) to evacuate vibration or convert it into something less harmful to playback. Examples are the Walker, the Galibier, and the Verdier La Platine. Some table designs are hybrids, like the SME's and some VPI tables. Every table needs to be on a good platform, but this is particularly important for mass-loaded tables, as they are quite susceptible to foot fall if not placed on an isolated surface.

I would strongly recommend that a beginner stay away from the suspended tables, particularly the Linn, which is capable of high performance, but a real handful to keep set up properly. It's a shame, as the Linn's are great for rock - they boogie.

Regarding LP quality, the above poster is correct - it's very much an album-by-album thing. A particular album release or particular artist may get a rep for good pressings (White Stripes releases, for example), but if you're talking about a classic rock album from the 70's, there may be fifteen different pressings and it's impossible to know what you've got until you clean it and spin it. Also and very importantly, you can't completely judge a used album by its face - many seemingly perfect looking LP's have serious groove damage and sound like shit because they were played with bad styli, while albums that look somewhat scratched up sound great because the scratches are surface-level and the grooves were not penetrated. Obviously ragged LP's are obviously ragged, but don't be surprised if you get a "mint"-rated LP that looks less than mint but sounds flawless.

Finally, I disagree with the posts that portray vinyl as being some kind of gigantic science project that will have you running around with a protractor, never knowing if your going to be able to play a record. It's simple - get a mass-loaded table, have it set up properly (and then resist the temptation to fuck around with the set up), vacuum clean every LP that comes into your possession before you play it, and thereafter, before and after you play a side, remove surface dust with a brush. Finally, pay your set-up guy $150 every year to eighteen months to come out and check your set-up. That's it - the only thing that's remotely inconvenient is the four or five minutes it takes to vacuum clean an LP - if you come home from the bargain bins with fifty LP's that need cleaning, pay your kid or some kid in the neighborhood a few bucks to do it for you.

I was trying to use contrast to make my point, which was that your system, and your listening preferences and priorities as you describe them, REQUIRE you to have an analog rig. Or as you correctly put it, you and your system are better tailored toward vinyl. I'm sorry that my comment was confusing in this regard. And there is nothing wrong with your speakers - they are excellent and the Beryllium tweeter in particular is superb (I might choose something else if rock were what I usually listen to, but your speakers do rock well and are very well balanced performers, balance being generally the best way to go).

Addressing your immediately prior post, the VPI Scout is a good table, if expensive for what it is. The Scout is more table than the Regas, but requires expert set-up. I myself run a VPI Aries, VPI 10.5 arm, and van den Hul Frog cartridge (all set up and dialed in by Peter Ledermann, a/k/a the Soundsmith). I also have a sixteen year-old Rega Planar 3 with a Grado Sonata cartridge on it. My main analog rig does not constitute elite equipment, but it's set up properly and sits on a custom shelf.

Generally speaking, moving-magnet phono stages require a moving-magnet cartridge or high output moving-coil cartridge, both of which put out a relatively high amount of voltage. You can't run a regular (low-output) moving-coil cartridge with them, as the signal off the cartridge is not strong enough. Conversely, you generally can't run a moving-magnet cartridge or high-output moving coil cartridge with a moving-coil phono stage, as MC phono stages are made to amplify the tiny voltages put out by low-output cartridges and will overload if hooked up to a high-output cartridge.

There is one additional item that I would like to correct from my initial post. In response to the first of your five questions, I concluded by writing, "In summary, if you have a modern table that has been carefully set up and you have properly cleaned the LP, noise is not the issue – just as with CD’s, the quality of the recording, not the medium (whether LP or CD), becomes the issue." I did not mean to give digital, or more accurately, PCM digital, that much credit - I meant to write that, under those circumstances, noise is no more of an issue with analog than it is with CD, i.e., just as with CD, noise is not an issue. I did not intend to write that PCM digital, as a medium, is fine and that the only issue is the recording. I do not want to reignite the old digital-versus-analog debate, but perhaps, given the thread's subject, it is appropriate for me to share my experience, which was summarized quite well by a prominent audio writer recently. Analog to my ears is a medium that is fundamentally pure and accurate to the source, but that has the occasional pimple (ticks and pops) on its otherwise perfect face. On the other hand, digital is fundamentally and thoroughly flawed to my ears - it's like a milkshake that was made with bad milk or a sausage made from bad meat inasmuch as the problem is thoroughly mixed in and indivisible from the whole - no matter that you take a tiny taste or consume three-quarters of it, the bad taste is everywhere. In my experience, only a small handful of top digital rigs (Playback Designs, AMR, Meitner) make it sound truly good. I've gone from Levinson separates to an Audio Research single-box and now to a $1,500 Chinese player - it's hard for me to justify spending a lot of money on the medium (and yes, I have a lot of CD's).

I had checked out your prior threads as well. It is less than ideal that you have your system on the short wall - everyone says to set up systems that way, but for someone who values soundstaging, you'll have a much wider, more natural stage if you go with the long wall (you may lose a bit of depth, but you'll eliminate the tunnel effect). Since you listen at 7 ft., this should work well unless your listening chair or couch is thick-backed and thus keeps your head far off the back wall (I suspect that it would still be preferable to the short wall). Try it and report back.

If it makes you feel any better, I put up with a 11' x 22' room in a Manhattan apartment for fourteen years. The upside was that I was in a pre-war building with walls and floors made from foot-thick concrete - the only person who ever complained was in a neighboring building.

Regarding used LP's, you'll soon find that some which cost a buck or two sound great (I mean GREAT) and that many new LP's from major reissue labels are disappointing - it's somewhat hit or miss. I'm listening to a performance of Liszt's 1st Piano Concerto on a Musical Heritage Society LP that I picked up at Tower's used classical bins many years ago that I doubt I paid a buck for, and it's sublime.

If you're willing to drive, you're welcome to hear my rig - I live about an hour north of Manhattan. But you would have to wait a bit, as my cartridge is in the shop (that's poetic justice, is it not?!).

My feeling is that something like a mint VPI Scoutmaster or entry-level Basis, purchased used, would be a better route, particularly because they can be upgraded. In addition, both can take a really high-end arm and cartridge (and the arms that come with each are good arms). The Music Hall and Denon have defined performance ceilings and are more in the style of the Rega tables, i.e., plug and play.

FatGhost:

Viridian is correct regarding the Music Hall (he is also absolutely correct in the other thread regarding the unimportance of primary resonance, which is usually irrelevant because of the low rumble of modern tables - arm/cartridge resonance is the issue, and it's totally unpredictable until an actual arm/cartridge combo is tried - but that exceeds the scope of your thread).

If I were you, I would buy a used VPI and then drive it to Soundsmith (Peter Ledermann) in Peekskill, New York (about 2.5 hours from Philly), for set up on a Saturday, and then pick it up the next Saturday - he might be able to do it all the same day, but you'd obviously have to ask. He'd probably charge you $100-$125. Peter uses VPI tables and he makes VPI's cartridges (he can mount any cartridge you buy - I just mention this for you to understand who this guy is). Except for maybe Frank Schroeder, no one knows more about analog then Peter.

Vandy's are dynamic (cone) loudspeakers, not electrostatics. But they use simple first-order crossovers that are well implemented - very good speakers.

It's impossible to say what you were hearing, as you were listening to two unfamiliar systems in unfamiliar venues. The second system was obviously a lousy set up (a room full of equipment that was, in addition, almost certainly overdamped, based upon your description).

If you want to know what a turntable sounds like, I would see if Dave Lewis Audio or Overture currently has a high-end table set up on premises. Overture is a serious shop by current standards, but I don't know if they really know what they're doing with analog or give a shit (most places don't and don't). Dave Serota (Dave Lewis Audio), on the other hand, is a committed two-channel guy with some very serious analog clients - my guess is that his shop is where you would be most likely to get good exposure. Some people think he's a dick - he's been great with me, but I've been a customer.

Most places will take back new vinyl that has problems, yes, but always pay with a card so you can do a chargeback if your seller tries to make you pay for defective merchandise (the law is on your side in most states, but practically speaking, you're not going enforce rights over a transaction of such small value).

Yeah, you can get a superb phono stage and cartridge for a combined $5k!

Colleagues snickering about the analog rig - take pity on the great unwashed and try to educate.