Considering A SS amplifier

Please explain what it is about the BHK 250 that you don't like.  Is it the tubes or some other element of the design?

Are you judging the sound of the BHK 250 based on the sound you get when paired with your Halcro DM8 preamplifier alone?  

Have you demo'd other preamps with your BHK 250?

Currently have a PS Audio BHK 250 Signature, but am finding tubes really aren’t my thing, 

No, you're finding the PS Audio BHK 250 Signature isn't your thing.

If it was the tubes, then all amps running the same tubes would sound the same. Which, spoiler alert, they do not.

For what that amp cost you could buy an integrated from Prima Luna or Raven, sell your overbuilt overpowered monstrosities and superfluous preamp, ICs and power cords, and have better sound with money left over. 

The BHK 250 is a nice amplifier, particularly when paired with the right preamp and speakers.  Triode tube front-end with all-MOSFET circuitry.

Might be worth saving, finding the root cause issues (likely in other parts of the system), rather than making a knee-jerk reaction to dump it and try other amps to realize the same result yet again. 

So far I have used it with the matching BHK Signature pre amp, along with one from Edge, and a passive from Placette Audio. So far I prefer tbe Halcro. Also ran a dozen tube chouces through it and the Telwfunken work best. Cables from Wireworld, Tara Labs, VH Audio, and  Analysis Plus Silver Apex work the best. Power cords from PI Audio Group, Wireworld, Analysis Plus. PS Audio, and ZU Audio. 

The amp sounds good, but just too soft around the edges foe me. 

@millercarbon

I have owned plenty of tube amps and pre amps over my 30÷ years in this hobby. Spent a decade enjoying SET based systems. I find tubes no longer speak ro me in terms of how I enjoy music. My preference. Of course speakers define what amplification is going to be the best choice. Currently use a pair of JBL 4365.

@neonknight 
So far I have used it with the matching BHK Signature pre amp, along with one from Edge, and a passive from Placette Audio. So far I prefer tbe Halcro. Also ran a dozen tube chouces through it and the Telwfunken work best. Cables from Wireworld, Tara Labs, VH Audio, and Analysis Plus Silver Apex work the best. Power cords from PI Audio Group, Wireworld, Analysis Plus. PS Audio, and ZU Audio.

The amp sounds good, but just too soft around the edges foe me.

Well, you certainly gave it quite a chance, all the preamps and even AP Silvers you tried - was gonna mention those but you already did that. PS does offer a tad more laid back sound and presentation IMO. You tried a lot more than most do to find synergy.  Not for your ears and preference maybe.  Best of Luck on the next steps.    

@decooney 

The only other consideration I got is speaker wire. Use Wireworld Eclipse Series 8. But need an 8 meter run so thats not a cheap test as I cannot find a run of that length on the used market
 

@neonknight , 
8 meters is a long run and might be the cause of your issues.
In your case, I would recommend some Audioquest speaker cables with DBS. Used Rocket 88, Rockefeller, or GO-4 isn't too expensive (relatively) and you might just score some on Hifi shark.
Is it possible to move your speakers closer? I have some cables I could lend you.
Bob

@neonknight
The only other consideration I got is speaker wire. Use Wireworld Eclipse Series 8. But need an 8 meter run so thats not a cheap test as I cannot find a run of that length on the used market.

8M is quite a run IF your PSA/BHK amp is already on the side of "soft" sounding. Rule of thumb to keep "speaker wires as short as possible" for home hi-fi, in general terms. Agree with gndrbob. Might be a culprit, or enough so to round things out a bit. A few questions.

1) I see those WW ES8s are OCC, "9AWG", are they standard or quad (bi-wire) speaker cables?

2) For a brief 1hr test, can you maybe move the speakers super close to the amp?

TEST:
Before you do, warm up amp, play a familiar track. Index volume at 10, 11 o’clock or whatever your normal listening level is. Make notes on what you hear with highs, mids, lows level of detail. Then power off, swap out speaker cables for super short runs.

Simple, cheap and crude test, won’t sound great, but this will confirm it quick. Go to Home Depot, get some wire to cut. Some use regular orange AC extension cords and cut them in half and strip.   Or locate the infamous 18/2 or 16/2 Brown Lamp cord (just for the test). Cut them at 4-6’ max length. Single or Dual-run cords if you can bi-wire. Move speakers close, 4-6’ from amp, 4ft better. Twist bare wire connect with no connectors if you have screw-in terminals with holes or wrap/pinch well - if doable.. Any difference, at all? Brighter, but grainy? Listen for louder volume output at same 10’oclock volume level, louder? Make notes, report back. Worth trying, cheap to do a quick test before buying other amps.

You say that the solid state amps you are considering are not available locally for a listen. If you have a local dealer, I suggest you audition a similarly powered amplifier(s) that he carries within your own system. This could give you the answers you are seeking. I suspect you are looking for a more articulate bottom end, maybe just a cooler listening room, or a maintenance-free component.

OK equipment rack is on the long wall, its a Salamander Geneva credenza, weighs about 130 pounds itself, and is needed to hold three turntables on top. Speakers are on the short wall, and they are JBL 4375, weigh about 190 pounds each. There is a fireplace between them, they are pulled out about 6 feet from the front wall. 

With the fireplace there its not possible to fit the amp between the speakers as its a stereo amp. Then that means a long run of interconnects, and even though I can do balanced it, I seem to recall that long speaker wire is more preferable than long interconnect runs. Now the AVM Essential are mono bock amps, so they could be located near speakers, but then you are talking an 8 meter run of interconnects. 

There is no way to move the component rack between speakers to shorten speaker wire runs. 

At one time I did use a Musical Fidelity NuVista M3 with these speakers, and they were quite lively on the top end. I was aiming for more refinement, but this is just too laid back. That was with the same cabling and speaker wire in place. MMM perhaps I did have the VH Audio interconnects in there, I might try blending some of those in on source components. 

I have experimented with the outdoor wire a long time back, I found it to be nasty sounding stuff. You would have to drag me back there to have to listen to it again. 

Oh and yes, the Eclipse 8 is a bi-wire arrangement. 

I am going to have to do some more listening with mixing in some VH Audio cabling. This would be a big move, and shouldn't be done as a knee jerk reaction. 

@neonknight 
..I seem to recall that long speaker wire is more preferable than long interconnect runs...

XLR interconnect cables are specifically designed for long runs. The test was to validate it so you could rectify the situation, "loss".    

Would you entertain "speaker wire length advice" from the CEO of PS Audio, the guy who partnered with Bascom H. King to design and manufacture your BHK amplifier?

Video:
https://youtu.be/Xd8JYfiKp3c

When I had speakers on either side of our fireplace, I placed the amp in the basement below and between them.  Then I drilled holes to run cabling down to and back from the amp.  Worked very nicely.

From everything that I have read (or mostly) it is preferable to have long IC and short speaker cables. Having just gone to mono blocks I had two sets of custom cables made up 5' length as my speakers require two cables rather than a bi-wire as the terminals are too far apart (40") to do successfully with a bi-wire cable. When I swapped my original set-up cables (10') for these there was quite a difference, no longer laid back, but in your face detail both hf and sub...a thought 

neonknight with that configuration, maybe you need a new house more than you need a new amp? 

@neonknight replace the wireworld cables with analysis plus, I find that I don't like the wireworld house sound.

by Paul McGowen (CEO) of PS Audio, Manufacturer of the BHK 250 amplifier.

Quote: "I now run the opposite: short speaker cables and long balanced interconnects."

https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/long-or-short-cables/

Your options are almost endless!

 For a life like, almost tube, with the heft, and control of a killer powerhouse.

 Check out smcaudio.com.  
 McCormack maps are incredible.

 Give Patrick a call.

 Amazing audio.

pass labs
sanders

 look for used, you’ll save a boatload, and get top,tier audio

enjoy the hunt!

What are the sources of music you are listening to?  Mostly digital or some analog (vinyl)?  That should be a factor as well.

@neonknight 

I'm using Bob Carver VTA-180 monoblock amplifiers.  Rated for 210 watts.  The mentioned anomaly occurred (or at least noticed) when I had replaced the termination of speaker cables.  The speakers were connected to the 4 ohm outputs on the amplifiers.  Not sure if the break in on the speaker termination exaggerated the issue but when I checked the bias voltage on the amplifiers, I noted fairly violent changes in the bias voltage under normal listening volumes.  I was concerned enough to contact the manufacturer.  I was given some ideas to try to isolate the problem since one of the amps seemed more unstable than the other.

None of the tube swaps or other swaps had any impact on the issue.  I do have some electronics background so while looking at schematics for the amplifier, I decided I may be over thinking the issue and decided to measure the actual resistance of the speaker,  Mine were wired to be able to be bi-amped and have jumpers supplied by Eric (wanted to leave my options open for the future).

I measured again this morning to verify my findings.  My MOABs measure 3.2 ohms.  This is the load seen by the amplifier.  When I checked the manual, it stated to use an output terminal on the amplifier that is less than the load (3.2 ohms).  I moved the speaker wire to the 2 ohm output on the amp and voila, rock steady bias voltage even at high volumes.

IMHO, it seems that the MOABs are efficient.  I love the sound.  I replaced some Cornwall IIIs with the MOABs.  They are sensitive to system changes.  I missed the dynamic sound of the horns so I added some Stein Harmonizers.  Also upgraded to all silver interconnects (thanks @Eric_squires, your posts and suggestions about cable to use led to some nice sounding DIY cables.  Much more transparent than the Audioquest cables I was using).

If I were looking for some SS amplifiers to drive these speakers, I would want to ensure they are capable of efficiently driving low load speakers.

Many tried to pull me over to the tube side as well but what I have learned is that I just prefer the sound of no tubes, just as I don’t prefer the sound of no preamp before the amp. Yes, I can hear how tubes are warmer and certain bright aspects are now smoother, but I found that in turn many of the highs weren’t as clear and the bass was not as fast. This was in my comparison of the rogue rh-5 and the headamp gs-x mini to my susvara. I much prefer the SS

The 4365's deserve big honkin solid state amps IMO. Just for giggles, you could buy one of the high powered Crown amps off Amazon on the cheap and see if that is more your taste. Then you can go after a higher end that is similar. I'm thinking one of the Passlabs or McIntosh SS big powered amps would be a great match.

Cabling is the bane of my existence! Last night I took the time to reinstall the VH Audio Spectrum CU interconnects within the system, and results were positive. This morning I reinstalled the Siemens 6922 pre driver tubes, as the Spectrum are a more forward and vibrant interconnect, and from what I hear the Telefunken can be a bit lean. 

So I spent a bit of time listening this morning, and this is a better balance. I have a love/hate relationship with wiring in that I hear what it does and it makes contributions at the finest level can separate the sound from being merely good to excellent. Yet I have a hard time coming to grips with the prices of this stuff, and its not like I got cheap audio gear. Couple that with the reaction any specific wire has within a system is difficult to predict, so it always feels like you are walking blind. There are times these Spectrum cables are so forward that I can't use them in a system, and I have an on and off relationship with them. I have been trying to move past them for what maybe 10 years now? Yet they stay relevant, seem a bit modestly priced, but somehow I always build systems where they work in. Go figure, audio is weird. 

I think I am going to start a conversation with the fellow with the AVM amps as they intrigue me. But right now I can enjoy this amp, it works in this system it seems. Its a crazy hobby isn't it. 

@neonknight 
"..But need an 8 meter run so thats not a cheap..."

"There is no way to move the component rack between speakers to shorten speaker wire runs..."

"love/hate relationship with wiring"...

-------------------------------------------------------------

"other" amps are not going to resolve loss with "8 Meter" long speaker cables.  

@decooney .
You have made some very good points.
B

Try a Pass Labs class A SS amplifier and unless you really mind the efficiency & heat generated, you will never ever look back.

Budget rules!  If you’re flush, Mark Levinson, Krell, PASS Labs, AR.  

Best budget , both integrated or pre and power amp separates are from AVA. 

My personal favorites, in order:  Crown, Bryston, Audio by Van Alstine,  Paradound, NAD and Rotel. Rotel is particularly nice sounding at reasonable cost.

But my advice is Crown. I bout my four hundred RMS WPC Crown power app on Amazon, in like-new condition for $299.95. Hard to beat a deal like that!  Effortless drives my low sensitivity five homemade bookshelf home theatre speakers. 

Hello,
I tried to look up the specs of these speakers. They appear to be 93db efficient. That is very efficient. I have read here at AG when you cannot use enough of your volume it is a bad thing. I believe Klipsch horns have some of the same issues. 
Speaker placement and room correction are huge. Do you have something to prevent 1st or 2nd reflection points. I saw these speakers can really fan out 60*-90* from the teeters. 
I am not sure but maybe you can bi-wire them using two different speaker cables. Maybe even some Romex from the hardware store for the bass and regular speaker cables for the highs. Be careful with silver. I see these speakers have incredible highs and silver might start to rip your ears off. Please try to get the amp close to the speakers and do longer XLR IC if you can. More power and less noise. 
Some times I see people put bases under these speakers and angle them up. Buy some shims for doors at Home Depot and see if it helps. 
I agree with everyone about the amp choices for SS but add Classe and Jeff Roland to amp to try. These speakers are really nice. They are like the JBL S4700’s. You might want to see what works well with them and you might have to call a JBL dealer and see what they recommend. 
Try to stick with copper speaker wire and IC for now until you solve this puzzle. My experience is silver is great at bigger gauges but tends to remove the realism of the sound sometimes and is very expensive. A lot of people have better results with 10 ga copper wire. I biwire with Analasys Plus 12 ga blue for the woofer and 2-16 ga purple for the highs. I know it’s wired but the way the current travels on the smaller ga wire but doubling them up sounds awesome! This is their bulk wire. I use to have the Solo Crystal oval 8 biwire but decided to sell it because it did not make that much of a difference on my system. I wish I had it now for the low end. 

Hello NeonKnight,
I have just sold and moved on from a complete PS Audio setup with DS DAC, BHK Pre and BHK 250 amp.  I have two systems, so swapping gear was easy.  In the end, I found the PS Audio all a bit 'less clear' and less resolving than nice SS stuff.  To directly compare the amps, I liked the clarity of my older Classe Audio CA-2300 amp better than the BHK 250.  I also now have a pair of Mola Mola Kalugas that are amazing...and I said 'no class D amps!'.  Well I ate those words.  My replacements for the PS Audio stuff is: Auralic Vega G2 DAC (much more resolving), Audionet Pre 1 G3 Preamp (amazing and a deal previously owned through GTT Audio), and my Classe amp.  The entire system is so much cleaner sounding now.  Much clearer, much quieter (I always heard noise from my B&W N802's with the PS Audio, not anymore), and just more interesting and (to me) enjoyable.  My dream list includes the Audionet Amps, again GTT Audio...  Upstairs my new stuff is all Mola Mola; Makua Pre amp  with internal DAC, and the Kaluga mono amps.  Symply amazing clarity, dynamics, etc.  And it is so pretty...Good luck!  Ken.

neonknight~I get what you're saying.  The people who say that cables, and esp speaker cables, make no difference are people who've only had one brand/line...it's crazy how much difference they make!  And [as so many other things w/this hobby], what sort of synergy they have with your system, and esp the amp[s] and speakers, for obvious reasons.  I have 4 brands at my house now, from cheap to "more than I want to admit", and the one that I settled on is nearly the least expensive...they are MAGIC in my setup, while the others sound either muddy [the cheapest] or bright [the most expensive] or OK but where did the detail go? [next to the most expensive].  So, I totally get your "crazy hobby" line...If you want to know the brand of the ones that won out, let me know.  If anyone wants to know if all 4 sets have exactly the same burn-in time, and are exactly the same length, don't bother...the final arbitror is not someone who is trying to pick holes in my process or statements, it's my ears ~ when you get something that works, and I mean REALLY works, in your system, you know it. 

I love my solid state Concert Fidelity 200FX amps. 

@fastfreightI am on board with you regarding the pre and the DAC. The DAC did not work well for me at all, and I preferred my trusty old Audio Magic DAC to it with redbook by a country mile. Funny thing is I have yet to find a meaningful replacement for it, as it sounds mighty good with redbook. I would like to explore other formats, however, it has to sound good with plain old CDs because many of the artists I like are independents who release their own music and they are only going to be on plain old cd's. 

Now the pre-amp could have drove me to drink, and it sure did cost me a lot of money in trying to find a tube that would allow me to like it. This is what I hate about tube audio, finding what really works well in a component, and knowing what the sound is really supposed to be like. Heck I was a tube guy from when I got my first Dynaco ST 70 at age 19,, to when I got these JBL and found out they are not SET amplification compatible. Even though they spec like they should be. 

The amplifier seems to be the best choice out of the product line. With a set of Siemens 6922 gold pin in it I get nice sound. The questions is can it be better? To be honest the most engaging, not necessarily the most refined, sound I have gotten from it was with a Musical Fidelity Nuvista M3 integrated amp. I should have kept that one. But I sold it to a good friend, and I got it at a steal of a price, and he has financial constraints so I was able to set him up with good sound. I found a killer killer deal for him on a Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista DAC also. Then we lucked into a score of a lifetime on a pair of Vandersteen 3A and upgraded over his 2CE. 

OK back on track. I did have a H2O Audio 250 Signature here, and its a nice Class D amp, but the BHK is more natural sounding. If I tried Class D again I hear good things being said about the JRDG ones. To be honest I have an initial acceptance for the sale of a pair of AVM Essential mono-block amps from a guy on an audio group I know. But shipping is from the other side of the country, he had a deal go bad on a previous sale, so he is somewhat reluctant to do this again. He says give him a couple of weeks to get up the ambition to pack them. So I am waiting. Not much info out there on AVM amps, especially these, but I find that the presentation of much of the German gear I hear seems to align with what these JBL would work with. Its a calculated risk. But under $2K for a $10K pair of amps that are about 10 years old and in excellent shape seems like a good gamble. 

Audio is an adventure! Its interesting to see where the trails lead. 

@Ace17

Sure I will give it a shot. I will send a PM. 

Actually I have a First Watt F7 that I am not sure if I tried it with the Halcro. I think I will put that together this afternoon to see what it does. 

So I have the F7 hooked up for about 3 hours now. Its starting to warm up and settle in. The top end is where the majority of the difference is, just more nuanced and delicate. The edges of notes arent rounded off, has a more honest feel to the music. With the JBL this is a better sound. I got some Maggie 1.6QR with Skiing Ninja xovers which are better suited for the BHK. Horses for courses thing it seems.

Hi again Neonknight,  Just noticed I have the exact same room set up as you...stereo  furniture, components and TV on long wall, speakers and fireplace on short end wall.  big Room 18 x 40.  I have nice (AU24 SX) power cables and interconnects, and they made a huge difference. My speaker cable runs are 35 ' and 25'.  After talking to many cable companies, I decided not to make them the same length, so my runs are 25 and 35'  I cold not spend for good cables at this length, so made my own from 8 gauge copper from a 100' roll, and soldered nice banana plugs with Cardas Silver solder.  I think it sounds amazing, but of course have not tried nicer speaker cables.  My cables run into the wall, down to the basement, above the drop ceiling, ad back up through the floor.
I liked your 'soft around the edges' comment..spot on.  And the Preamp noise (hiss) made me drink as well!  Take care!