I propose that applying the term audiophile to a person over fifty is an oxymoron and such, that person can’t really be trusted to make competent choices when it comes to purchasing or discerning what actually sounds best.
According to Decibel Hearing Services https://decibelhearing.com/high-frequency-hearing-loss/ it is very hard for a person over 50 to hear over 12,000hrz and I suspect that most in that group who consider themselves audiophiles probably can’t get close to that as we tend to enjoy or enjoyed in the past the louder volumes which is a known destroyer of high frequency hearing
If you notice from the linked chart most people over 18 can’t hear over 17,400hrs so truth be told the only true audiophiles are probably 12 year old girls. Because they can actually hear 20 to 20,000hrs they are the only group who are truly qualified to actually make component sound decisions
(The other option which actually might be easier is to train cats to make the decision but I’ll explore that in a later thread.)
What I’m proposing is actually based on the babysitting model where you would hire the true audiophiles to come either with you to the stereo shop or in your home space to perform the listening tests. The benefits to them would not only be short term CASH but also long term. I fear that the whole high end stereo complex is going to die out when the current crop of wanna be audiophiles die off. Just think in 10 years there would be a population of new listeners that could tell the difference from booming bass and flabby bass. They would be a catch for every 22 year old guy with a stereo. Maybe they could even effect the music scene where recording and dynamics matter.
Most older audiophiles may not have the high frequency hearing they once did, but many tend to be far more knowledgeable and experienced at recognizing many aspects of good sound. They also tend to be more patient listeners. So hearing over 10K may be shot, but that’s only one octave, where there's not much happening. The vast majority of more critical info occurs in a very audible range.
It often takes a lifetime to sift through the multitude of misinformation. Young audiophiles with good hearing tend to not have much knowledge, and have yet to learn what they don’t even know. Reliable places to learn from are hard to come by. It’s a conundrum.
Oh well, in any case I am happy to help. Cover all my transportation, meals, quality adult beverages, and for a lot less than you will throw away on some wannabee poser I will do it all.
Full disclosure- I am not a meter. Listening is a skill. I have it. Meters don't.
This idea of needing to have laboratory perfect hearing is total BS. Even without perfect hearing, we can tell the difference between real life and reproduced music. Hi-fi has a long way to go before you'll need perfect hearing to tell the difference.
Proposal rejected. Hearing is part ear, part brain/mind. Those with weak minds are bad at hearing, seeing, speaking, writing, or formulating reasonable proposals.
Public school strikes again! It’s immediately apparent that you are educated beyond your learnin’. You aren’t qualified to judge a set of speakers but you are qualified to judge everyone over 50? You are either a troll or fool You'd better go play in the shallow end of the pool with your peers. This end is for the grown ups. You are in over your head and maybe somewhat delirious. Did you swallow a lot of that chlorine water?
This idea of needing to have laboratory perfect hearing is total BS. Even without perfect hearing, we can tell the difference between real life and reproduced music. Hi-fi has a long way to go before you’ll need perfect hearing to tell the difference.
Turns out there are 4k ear cilia cells arranged in rows that are activated and allow us to hear full sine wave frequencies below about 20kHz. How far below varies from individual to individual and gets much worse as we age.
Turns out there are 12k of these same cells that are activated by frequencies far higher than 20kHz. So three times as many cells devoted to detecting sounds we cannot hear?
Turns out our hearing system is highly attuned to detecting leading edge transients. So while we cannot hear a full sine wave at these frequencies we do "hear" them, only this "hearing" is of a nature that is one of the many unconscious aspects of hearing.
This is why, in spite of the fact simplistic sine wave testing says we cannot hear them at all, the addition of a super tweeter does so much to improve perception across the audio range.
Interestingly, it turns out that while we lose the ability to hear high frequency sine waves with age, there is little if any deterioration in our ability to hear these ultrasonic frequencies. This is why for example my hearing rolls off yet I easily hear improvement from the Townshend super tweeter.
The number of examples of things like this- where experienced listeners destroy simplistic measurebators - is near endless. Anyone thinks some kid is a better listener able to pick a speaker, good luck with that. I guess since a baby in the cradle hears the best of all that is who they should ask for advice. So why is the OP wasting his time here then? Could it be he doesn't believe his own BS?
Okay so wait, now it was all just satire? So in that case I was right, he really doesn’t believe his own BS. Or wait, since satire is BS then he really does believe his own BS? I’m confused. This is like herding cats. Where’d that 12 year old girl go....? Might still have some candy left over from the baby....
"When can we get together and watch "Logan’s Run"?
It was fun the last 25-30 times (lost count) and I’m looking forward to it again."
I first saw Logan’s Run in an actual single screen movie theater (remember those) when I was in college. Let’s just say Jenny Agutter made quite an impression.
Interestingly, it turns out that while we lose the ability to hear high frequency sine waves with age, there is little if any deterioration in our ability to hear these ultrasonic frequencies.
MC, this is an incredibly interesting fact. I’m currently researching hearing for some things I’m writing about audio and attention. Do you have a source for this you can share?
When you are given a hearing test, it is at a given frequency, duration and amplitude.
Did you get the "And AMPLITUDE, part"?
We lose some of the ability to hear at a give VOLUME, not lose the ability to hear all together.
Second a lot of people have taken care of their EARS and health. It does pay in the long run..
BUT I have worked with a LOT of people and their hearing is just shot.. NO going back. Too bad too a lot of times it was just "NO EAR PLUGS" and a life of noise.. Guns, loud pipes, windows rolled down and driving, loud music, loud equipment. No protection.
I still use ear plug through most of the day, I hear just fine with them in.. They come out at night, or at a listening session (I forget now and then). It's just the opposite of a lot of folks..
I keep earplugs in the car for long solo drives and I never roll windows down, If I can help it.
The savior of stereophile magazine after J Gordon Holt stepped down, Larry Archibald, had to give up critical listening as he had utterly destroyed his hearing in his left hear, from driving BMW's around with the drivers window down.
MC, this is an incredibly interesting fact. I’m currently researching
hearing for some things I’m writing about audio and attention. Do you
have a source for this you can share?
Sorry, wish I did. Came across it fairly recently when reading about this ultra sonic stuff. It totally conforms with everything we know about older guys losing top end hearing according to tests, yet still having exceptional hearing in terms of listening and being able to evaluate all kinds of subtle details. If you can't hear hf how then do you hear all this subtle detail? Same way I hear improvement even though it is apparently all well above the range I can hear I guess.
@millercarbon I heard a couple of Hans Beekhuyzen youtube videos recently where he discussed hearing at older ages. He affirms the point about older hearing being better in many ways because hearing is not just the physical reception of physical stimuli, but the training of attention, selectivity, and discrimination. You know all this, I realize, but I just remembered it and wanted to throw it out there for general consumption.
Yes. A visual metaphor. One time on a Porsche Club tour this one guy is letting his son drive his 911. Extremely narrow twisty country road. Up and down, left and right, sun and shadow. Kid is keeping up but we can tell from the lines he is taking it is a challenge. At one point yet another blind curve only this time a puddle on the road. At this pace if the kid hits the puddle, not good. He misses it. We all miss it.
Afterwards we are congratulating the kid on missing the puddle.
"What puddle?"
I'm sure if tested his vision was a lot better than any of ours. So much for simplistic performance measures.
Wow, I want to thank everyone. It must be my public education or my
inability to swim??? or my weak brain that made me think that
qualifications don’t matter only experience. I never knew that the
worlds best speakers don’t need to go over 15K because nothing
happens in that quarter of the frequency range anyway or it
doesn’t matter if my interior designer is color blind as long as
they’re old. Also thanks for the realization that hearing doesn’t
really matter in HIFI because I’m perfectly able remember what it
sounded like when I could hear it.
I attacked no
one personally only a definition of a label. So yes, by all means
don’t consider your deficiencies on your next purchase of anything.
Hell I bet you could do your own brain surgery because you’ve been
cutting your own meat for 50 years.
And maybe just maybe
watch Soylent Green which is a movie about man’s inhumanity to man
but be sure to turn it loud so you can hear it.
I am just going to say that judging good sound does not require perfect hearing, you can still tell clarity, dynamics, tonal quality, and bass response with less than perfect ears for sure.
Actually after giving it some thought I am not sure the qualifications shouldn’t include being over 50. I didn’t have the experience in listening and understanding of sounds and music. Let alone the money to purchase synergistic high end equipment into a real audiophile system… I was young and stupid. I now realize that term can last a lifetime in some.
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