I can answer that. I had a Clearaudio Champion Level 2 using their tonearm and a Sigma Wood cartridge before switching to a Teres 265. The Teres was a very large step up in performance. I kept the Sigma Wood cartiridge and used a Graham arm on the Teres. Eventually I changed to the Lyra helikon cartridge but, if I were to do it again, I would use the Graham Nightingale cartridge.
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I would second the Teres recommendation (I have a Teres 340 and the Graham 2.2).
If you ever decide to try another cartridge, test drive the ZYX UNIverse. It is beyond wonderful and maybe as good as it gets.
As much as I love my Graham 2.2, the Schroder Reference was phenomenally better. The latest Tri-planar was quite a few notches above the Graham (but a bit strong on the attacks for my taste) and the Schroder was significantly better than the Tri-Planar. I was fortunate to hear all three tonearms on my table in my system on the same weekend with the same LP's.
A Schroder Reference is definitely in my future. Heaven is a Teres 340, Schroder Reference Arm and a ZYX UNIverse cartridge.
I have a Teres 255 Lacquered Rosewood with a ET2 linear tracking tonearm and Shelter 901 cartridge and I wouldn't trade it anything. This is the first time that I have had a turntable that I wasn't thinking of doing an upgrade to it, I have been very happy and will not be changing anything on it. The Teres 255 is a perfect match with my Counterpoint SA-1000 fully upgraded preamp. I have heard the Clearaudio, VPI, LP12, and Nottingham Analogue tables and the Teres was the best out of the bunch with the NA a close second but it was twice the price. You will have to spend alot more to beat the Teres 255 table. It's the last turntable I will ever buy. Chris is very helpful and takes care of his customers.
Nice rig.....just one more thought for you to cogitate: See if you can audition a ZYX Airy2 or Airy3 in your current set up. I had the 901 on my Teres/Graham 2.2 set up and the ZYX cartridges are just that much better than the 901.
The Airy2 will be much more musical and the Airy3 will have greater attacks.
Sirspeedy70680 (may I call you Sirspeedy?),
I will be using the Graham 2.2 until I get the Schroder (which will probably be 6-9 months from now).
I have had a Schroder Reference and the Graham mounted in my system with the same cartridge, on the same weekend and compared them listening to the same LPs.
I love the Graham 2.2 (have not heard the Phantom in my system, I did hear it at a dealer but can not make any comparisions due to the vast differences in associated equipment and room) but it does not even come close to holding a candle to the Schroder Reference. The Schroder 2 and DPS were far better than the Graham 2.2 and then the Reference was in another stratasphere. I am loving my system now and just can't imagine what it will be like with the addition of the Schroder.
I will post my reactions soon after the I have had the Schroder in my system for a short while.
oh yeah, i've seen them, i have 2 friends that both own the 255, and i just don't like them, sorry my original post probably came off a little harsh, i didn't mean to offend anyone, which after thinking about it, i'm sure i did. but you know, music, art, etc. is all in the eye of the beholder, as they say.
Well, interestingly the question was about Teres and Clearaudio Turntables.
When I read the first line, I knew what's coming and I got it right. Teres is super, Schroeder Reference is more than super ( unfortunately no one asked for that, but who cares ), and so on. Sorry, I can't help, but sometimes I have the feeling that a few use the forum here to push "some" products. And I have this "feeling" mainly when I read comments from Teres owners. But maybe I'm wrong.
Ahem Larry, say "Hi" to Frank the next time, and I still think, his arm is overpriced. But maybe not for everyone.
Thomas,I too feel the(incredibly intriguing)Shroder Ref is VERY pricey,however as Mr.S,himself,once said,on a different thread,"let someone else try to make one for less".I still feel that arm should sell(could sell)for less,but that isn't going to happen.Also,the only,and I mean ONLY way to know for sure is to try one in ONE'S OWN SET-UP!!Forget about seeing,and hearing one at a show,or even another owner's response.Unfortunately,at the high asking price,some may go for it,but if some kind of U.S. magazine review came out with a "RAVE" review I'll bet the sales would greatly increase.Not that it needs to,as it is hand made,slowly,I presume.
To me,and I'm only guessing,this arm is very carefully marketed,adding to the perception of clear superiority over the rest of the otherwise fine competition.Though I have been,and always will be in AWE of it's apparent lack of resonance,in design of the ingenious bearing.Too bad I'll never really get a chance to find out,as I'm prepared to put beans on the table for a few months,if I only REALLY knew how good it was!!
I thought about ignoring this last post of yours, but since you have indirectly accused at least several VERY honorable members of this for the most part well meaning and kind group of unduly promoting Teres decks and my tonearms, let me repeat one last time: Neither Chris Brady nor I have ever or will ever ask anyone, be it a customer or someone who just participated in a listening session to say or write anything other than his OWN opinion. Why would anyone act as an advertisement spokesperson for me? Certainly not because I'd give them a deal on one of my overpriced products. Larry Howkins(Cello) is one of the most kind, decent and generous persons I have ever met in my life. Trying to put him into some shady corner is what upsets me most. And maybe your own tendency to take up every opportunity to say something negative about my tonarms has to do with the fact that I didn't cut you a deal when you were once showing an interest in purchasing one of my arms.
John Elison didn't take the challenge, maybe you will:
Build(or have a mechanic of your choice build) a Reference arm within 4 weeks, if it equals the build quality and the sonics(shouldn't be difficult since it is only soso...) and doesn't omit any technical features, I'll buy it for the full german retail. The revenue should be enough to buy a decent arm(and there are, sarcasm aside, quite a few of them around).
I do value criticism from anybody who has taken the time and effort to examine a product(mine in particular) closer, but your opinions haven't been worth the keyboard they were typed on (and they often give those away...).
To the other members of the forum: Please forgive the sarcastic tone of this post, it goes against my belief that this forum is about an exchange of facts, findings and
more than anything, sharing the fun and excitement this hobby/passion is capable of providing, all in a civilized manner. I shall return to this maxim.
Have a great weekend,
why are you upset ? Show me one mail, where I wrote something negative about your arm ? You will not find one.
Whom I have accused ? Who is a VERY honorable member ? From what ?
On the other side, YOU are on the agressive side, when there is a report or opinion, when there is a discussion about one of your product, which is not in "awe". YOU did write things about me, which are wrong, you don't know me, you have absolutely no idea about my System and finally you wrote, that I am an unexperienced listener. I didn't wrote an answer about that, it was not worth the time for me. Having Interest in your Arm ? Yes, of course why not, I have interest in many Arms, so I asked. I asked for a bit better price, because I have no dealer, so why should I pay full dealer profit, when I don't use one. That was all.
I thought, Bob Graham wrote you in a earlier message his opinion about manufacturer comments in public forums. It's here at Audiogon, everyone can find it when interested.
I write my opinion about a few things like everyone else.
I push no one in a shady corner, you don't have to be upset for others. I wrote all my mails in a civilized manner, when there is a kind of agressive tone, then it was always from you.
What you try to do, even in AudioAsylum, is attacking people. I don't know why, sorry, and honestly, I am not interested. Same with Bob Graham, you wrote first a few lines about his product, then his answer came, after that you apologized and wrote, you will ask the mod, to delete YOUR mails.
And why are you attacking me ? Compared to what was written in VinylAsylum (" Wooden tonearm that hangs from a string" ) my few sentences are NOTHING to that.
To come to an end, Larry wrote his experience about a comparison in a post above, his experience is different than mine but someone only will know that, when every mail from me was read ( and saved ? ).
I didn't write a comment about that. It's his comment, one of many others. Mine is one of many others. Is anyone out there who collects answers about Schroeder tonearms ? I think, a "big brother" is watching me.
Have a great weekend,
Thomasheisig ( Customer )
Dear Frank and Thomas,I sort of feel like an innocent bystander,intervening at an accident scene,where one auto driver is about to go at it with the other driver.I DO have the best intentions here,but would like to sort of mention,from my own point of view,that there is really NO reason for anyone(including you Frank)to get so upset.
Both of you guys seem to have generally good intentions,from previous postings,and from your general demeanors,but it has gotten a bit out of control,when hobbyists have to worry about being verbally spanked(by a manufacturer)if they say anything negative about said product.I ALWAYS feel self conscious of you,Frank,when I'm discussing arms,as I know you follow things closely,BUT,this is a hobbyist forum.Though I DO think you are a NICE GUY,I also feel you can be antagonistic,at times.Your initial sarcasm about my screen name,and the punctuation on the "O" of Shroder,hey I can't type,even to this day(I know you were jesting,but I didn't know it at the time),and the original bit with Graham( BOY,was he ever NICE in his reply) was really uncalled for,even though you appologized.Hey,I NOW know you are passionate about your products,and have come to appreciate this aspect of you,but I don't want to get paranoid,if I discuss your arm.You already know I'm fascinated by it,probably because it really is as good as some have stated.Of that I have no doubt!!
As for Thomas,he has(in a forum like this) the right to feel free to give opinions,but ONE SHOULD UNDERSTAND that we are ALL affecting the livelyhood of (generally) small manufacturers,who depend on good "word of mouth".This IS an important point,which I have come to understand,though Thomas is being hit a bit too hard here,IMO.And,I KNOW,at times I have a big mouth.Can't help that.Probably stems from childhood.I think I can blame my mother for that!
As for Larry,I've only been active on this forum for about 6 or 7 months,but he REALLY does seem to be about the nicest guy to post anything.I recently,was called vicious names by an incredibly immature poster who literally used my own screen name to impersonate me in phony responses.The reason for this was because I had asked a tube related question,and instead of being given a straight answer,was offered 2 tubes(which I NEVER showed any buying interest in)for 200 dollars each.None of these tubes were ever tested,or rated,but this 'Goner saw a potential quick sale,and showed his true self when I indicated he wasn't helping fellow hobbyists by offering unverified products, this way.
All in ALL,there are the "Bad Guys",like that "YUTZ",and the "Good Guys",like Frank,Thomas,and DEFINITELY CELLO.So,it's Saturday evening,now,lets all kick back,appreciate all we really have,and maybe crack open a good bottle of Reisling.I know I'm doing that tonight,during my 5 hr listening session!A Great Weekend To All of You!!
I will gladly explain why your post upset me.
It was triggerered by(quote):
"Ahem Larry, say "Hi" to Frank the next time, and I still think, his arm is overpriced. But maybe not for everyone"
It is the "Ahem" that, to me, implies that I am in regular contact with Larry, which, unfortunately, I'm not. There is no teaming up, no conspiracy...
As for the second part, let me qote you again: "unfortunately no one asked for that, but who cares"
"Whom I have accused ?"
Your own answer:
"Sorry, I can't help, but sometimes I have the feeling that a few use the forum here to push "some" products. And I have this "feeling" mainly when I read comments from Teres owners."
"Who is a VERY honorable member ?"
To name a few: Cello is, Doug Deacon is and so is Lugnut(Patrick Malone), all three of which I had the pleasure to meet in person. Others might disagree, but in my book they are true gentlemen.
"When I read the first line, I knew what's coming and I got it right. Teres is super, Schroeder Reference is more than super ( unfortunately no one asked for that, but who cares ) "
Jj2468 asked for opinions on Teres decks, mentioning the associated components should help him(and others)to put the advice in perspective.
Besides that, the first line of the quote does sound like you have a bias against said posters and products.
"I push no one in a shady corner, you don't have to be upset for others."
The first part of your quote was addresses above and I do take the freedom to be upset when I feel that someone is wrongfully misrepresented.
"What you try to do, even in AudioAsylum, is attacking people.
YOU are on the agressive side, when there is a report or opinion, when there is a discussion about one of your product, which is not in "awe".
As I said in my initial reply, I welcome criticism and would not react negatively to any remarks about the sonic qualities, the handling or the execution of my arms(criticism is instrumental in improving any product). Comments on pricing are an entirely different matter, because, so far, they came from people who didn't know what they were talking about. In the past I tried to explain what constitutes the price of any product manufactured/marketed by a small company in high end audio, most people understand, some don't, so be it.
And, off course, you are entitled to your opinion.
Lots of people are not "in awe" when looking at my arms, it's human nature to have differing likes and dislikes. And when it comes to listening, you always listen to a whole system(+room), never a single component. Obviously some components will fit the respective jigsaw puzzle better than others.
"I wrote all my mails in a civilized manner, when there is a kind of agressive tone, then it was always from you."
A generalization, not correct on both accounts.
"Is anyone out there who collects answers about Schroeder tonearms ?"
As far as I can tell, the answer to your question is no.
"I think, a "big brother" is watching me."
Yeah, me too, --and all the others.... ;-)
This reply was not written to start a "but you said,and I never said.." string. I would merely like you to understand why I reacted the way I did.
I shall not reply to posts after 3.a.m.
I shall not reply to posts after 3.a.m.
I shall not reply to posts after 3.a.m.
I shall not re.....
Frank,I'm not as honorable as you may suspect.I lied about the Reisling,and went for a Shiraz,instead.Though I pulled a late night listening session,'til 2 am.,and, had a ball,ALONE in my dedicated music room(my little version of "The Fortress Of Solitude").
One point,to those wanting to get more out of their systems."It's AMAZING how GOOD your set-up sounds,when you have a half bottle of wine,in you"!!A cheap tweak,too!
Hi all. Thanks for your input so far. I'm leaning toward the teres. I'm thinking about making my own base. What do you think about using granite as the base? Is it a good or bad idea? It would have lots of mass, but I don't know anything about the resonant qualities of granite. Granite weighs roughly 180 lbs per cubic foot. I figure a granite base would weight about 70 to 90 pounds. Thoughts?
Flyingred: Thanks. After looking at the granite, I'm not crazy about it. So, I'm glad you sent the link. I looked at the hall of fame on teres's site, http://www.teresaudio.com/fame and it shows some pretty cool ideas.
Cello, thanks for the suggestion of the 265, but the 255 is a reach for me. Do you get a bigger bang for the buck going from the 165 to 255 or from the 255 to the 265?
"Cello, thanks for the suggestion of the 265, but the 255 is a reach for me. Do you get a bigger bang for the buck going from the 165 to 255 or from the 255 to the 265?"
I think your question is best answered by Chris Brady. I would suspect that the bigger bump is between the 165 and the 255 (by far), but do ask Chris.
In response to your reply on 05-12-05. How much do the ZYX Airy 2 and Airy 3 go for? I may check this out because I have an extra armtube for the ET2 and I could swamp it out quickly for direct comparison. What is the complaince for this cartridge? The Teres seems like a very good match for the ET2/Shelter 901 but I will look into this. Thank You for the info, I really appreciate it.
Cello's a bit backlogged with Katrina-related issues, so I'll answer for him if I may.
New ZYX prices are always shown in Mehran's (Sorasound's) A'gon ads. The current ad is here:
He also has demo/review cartridges available from time to time. Give him a call or email if that's of interest. As posted by many here, Mehran is one of the nicest and most honorable men you will ever meet.
Compliance for all ZYXs is 12cu in the vertical mode, 15cu lateral. I normally recommend that people order their ZYX with the optional silver weight. An ET2 might not need it however. Do you know your arm's eff. mass in the lateral plane? If it's high (> 16g) like many other air bearing arms, you might not need the optional weight. The Airys weigh about 5g without the weight, 8-9g with it.
I'd be interested in hearing about how one of the top ZYX's performs on an ET2. The Airy 2, Airy 3 and UNIverse all easily outplayed a 901 on the three pivoting arms I've compared them on, so in general I concur with Cello's recommendation.
P.S. There's one more option on these cartridges: copper coils or silver (same price). Cello and I have A/B'd copper and silver coiled UNIverses in both our systems. On ZYX's top model, the copper coils are more neutral, the silver coils are rather warmish or smoothed. We both prefer the copper but fans of the traditional Koetsu sound would probably choose the silver.
I own neither a Teres nor a Schroder. Knowing what I know about the manufacturers and sonic character of the products accused of being hyped by certain members I would buy without hesitation a Teres 265 and a Schroder 2 If my circumstances were different. I say this even after Chris Brady and I got into it in another thread. Both of these products represent a huge cost to performance ratio. So, from a non-owner of either product AND having met both of the manufacturers, to my ears these are the highest performance analog pieces for the price that I've ever heard.
I really take exception to whoever said the Schroder arms are overpriced and that if a favorable review were to happen then sales volume would increase. Knowing what I know about manufacturing, which is substantial, this doesn't make much sense. Frank is already making as many arms as he can. How could this possibly be shrewd marketing? The current backlog of orders probably weighs heavily on his mind since he is acutely aware that whenever an order is placed that the customer would love to have it right now. Additionally, having such a product made by others would only add to the cost and quality would likely suffer.
I'm not trying to stir up a hornets nest here. Honestly. What I see out of both products are the simplest solutions to difficult engeneering problems. These solutions are manufactured to the highest standards humanly possible and still in reach of the average audiophile. Not that they are cheap but nothing in this hobby is cheap that performs this well.
Thank You for the reply and info. How's it going? Do you still have your Shelter 901? I checked out the ad and even with these discounts its still too high for me because I have to cool it on the expensive toys for awhile, while I finish upgrading my Carver Amazings Silvers (finished the total upgrade on the Counterpoint and it came out very nice). I got a good deal on my Shelter 901 from Japan, so I'm happy for now but if I get some extra bucks to spend I'll check one of these (Airy 2/Airy 3) out. The compliance of the cartridge if I'm correct is about the same as the Shelter 901 so it will be a good match for the ET2. I'm going to order a new motor pulley adapter so I can use the Mylar tape drive belt on my Teres, I have heard good things about this belt and I'm going to try it out.
Cello and his family are safe and well. They are in the FL area where Katrina hit first. Home and business were both disrupted, but not damaged AFAIK.
Much scarier, they have a daughter attending Tulane. She got out fine and brought 3 friends home with her. They are staying with Cello and his family until things get sorted out. I'm sure Cello's open-hearted hospitality is a great relief to some very anxious parents.
I still have my 901, sitting in a box. If you check the reviews beneath my signature you'll see where we've gone since: Airy 2, Airy 3 and UNIverse.
ZYX compliance (12cu/15cu) is higher than a Shelter (9cu) and an unweighted ZYX is lighter too. That's why a ZYX on most tonearms needs the optional weight. It *may* not be needed on an ET2 however, as I mentioned above.
By all means switch to the mylar tape from the silk thread. I posted a comparison here a couple of years ago. The tape is much better at resisting stylus drag. CB shipped our 265 with both and we did not like the silk thread at all.
The mylar tape is more fiddly to live with (motor levelling and positioning are critical) and the tape must be handled with care. One crease or crinkle and it's useless. It's easy to DIY replacements though.