The few small problems with a machine such as the Clearaudio Double Matrix, or Smart Double Matrix are this:
Yes, one gets convenience of doing both sides at once. The problem with such, is the underside of record cannot have fluids applied, and then let soak for a period of time. The simple reason is gravity. The same applies to machines like the Nitty Gritty, in that if you wish to allow a record's surface to soak, it must be done off the machine.
And, the other, is if you wish to use multiple step cleaners, and/or a rinse step, again, you have a problem due to the same features.
At least in the Loricraft-Keith Monks arrangement, one can concentrate on cleaning one side at a time, use multiple steps, and rinses no problem.
The VPI 16.5 is of course the price king option at $500. This leaves lots of money left over for a lot of other things.
Another, with better features, and build quality, would be the Clearaudio Smart Matrix. As I undestand it now, the new Smart Matrix is all aluminum exterior construction, not aluminum painted MDF. ($1000)
The Smart Matrix has reversible platter, and where many of the parts on the VPI are made of plastic-delrin, the Smart matrix uses metals.
The choice must be the end users, but with double sided cleaning machines, it would be a considerable waste of money, and could be called counter-productive then not using all it's whistles, and bells, by straying from a one step cleaner, which seems to be the intentions of how these machines are supposed to be used. Mark |
I'll try combining all that's been recently said. No I'm no PHD authority, just some comments to what others wrote.
Ad for the velvet protective strips coming off the Double Matrix, perhaps give Dr Duane Goldman a ring at Disc Doctor. He sells replacement peel+stick strips for something like $15 for 4 strips, enough to do the double matrix. You might have better luck with these? Worth a try anyway.
As for Bill's (audiofeil) suggestion, about manual cleaning, that's a good point he brings up, especially if a person's starting out, and has a relatively small collection, 50-75 records give or take. Again, with some good cleaners, like AIVS, Disc Doctor, MoFi, etc, you'll get pretty decent results if you use care.
As for the VPI 16.5 roaming around the record with "wet lips", I think this is over-exaggerated. In fact, run those "dry" lips around the record more than two revolutions, and you'll have some excess static built up.
The suction of the 16.5 literally sucks the lips dry as well during a vacuum step. With the 16.5, it is wise, to have an additional Vacuum Wand Assembly, that is dedicated for a seperate rinse step, so no cross contamination occurs.
Is the Loricraft better than wand style machines? Probably so, and it should be, for the asking prices.
The benefit I see, is no wand even touching the surface to possibly grid contaminants into the vinyl.
With the VPI machines, one will just about invest 20, or so minutes per record as well, if using a 3-4 step AIVS cleaner-rinse.
In any case, it is the cleaners that must do their job. Without good cleaning fluids, rinses, one could probably use a machine that cost $20K, and won't achieve the desired results. If the cleaners, rinses cannot remove-dislodge the contaminants, and the rinse removing any residuals, I guess the party's over as far as state of the art, pristine cleanliness goes. Mark |
I think your choices are good ones, and as long as you can afford such a machine without hurting yourself, then I say god bless you, and go for it!
There's some tricks, and small roadblocks to using the TOTL Loricraft, and you might hit a snag using one, noting a couple of specific issues.
But there are a good number of folks here who have the same machine, and will be able to offer good advice, and their experiences, to guide you past such.
I reckon nothing's perfect. But this quality of machine is a work of art.
Doug Deacon is one who owns the same machine. I know he's written much here. Just search the archives on this forum for all posts pertaining to these machines.
That's one thing to love about this forum, the wealth of information on virtually everything audio, that can be accessed with a simple search.
Again, and I know the gurus here will not argue this very important point I make. Use high quality cleaners, and ultra pure water rinses, and you will enter the holy shrine of vinyl-nirvana! |
My collection is meager to some I know, probably about 800-850 records. To go back to the point of just having 7 records, well that would have to be late 1963, early 1964, and I was about 9 years old.
But we all have started somewhere. And there's no shame to your "confession".
It would be like me saying "Yeah, I was riding racing bikes when Lance Armstrong was still in diapers", but what does that proove?! If I could keep up with him on a hill for a block, it would be a miracle!
About all I can add, is do reseach your options fully, and sleep on your decisions. As many might say, for the price of a Loricraft, one could buy a fantastic Phono Stage, a great Cartridge, or something else.
As for the truth of this statement, I am unsure, but I have heard from a couple of people, that the Loricraft can be a bugger getting total fluid pickup off a record. That it might mean the necessity of a unscented kleenex (or the "mop" of your choice) to sop up any fluids left.
This of course isn't unusual, that it as well can happen with any other RCM, if you spill-spread fluids into the label area, or they leak over to the underside lip of the record. The plusses of the Loricraft probably outweigh the minuses.
Again, I've think I made it known in this thread, I own the VPI 16.5. And I excluisvey use AIVS products.
It is a basic simple machine, but I like the fact that I can manually control the applications of fluids, let them sit as long as I like, scub as little or as much as I feel necessary, use multiple cleaning-rinse steps with ease, and that the cost was not too unreasonable, especially for the improvement of playback I attained.
My only regret was not buying one sooner. Mark |
Koegz, Since Syntax, and I appear clueless, please further explain a few things to us then.
Cab you easily use a musti-step cleaning process with the Double Matrix? I think I can answer that, that yes, you can, but can it be done easily, I think the answer is no.
I checked out your system, and I can easily gather it is state of the art.
Not at all ashamed to admit that most, if not all of your equipment is vastlty superior to what I own. I would assume just the Walker Table alone, makes my VPI Table akin to a wind up RCA Victrola!
You seem fond of Lloyd Walker's equipment, so may I ask you this below, since you are in no doubt regular coorespndence with Lloyd.
But I'll ask this question first...
Why, with a $5200 RCM, would you squirt scalding hot water from a $3.00 chinese made steamer onto a record sitting on a $5200 RCM? (OK, you might've sprung the $150 buying from Mapleshade, but little to no difference to the $20 Steamer at Walgreens, which cost about $3 to make in China)
I'm of course not asking you to trust-respect what I say, but have you asked Lloyd Walker what he thinks of such? I already know the answer. And his answer would be, that he will say his Prelude cleaning system is vastly superior to a steaming method, with little-no risk to the vinyl.
And would I believe Lloyd if he told me this? Yes, in a heartbeat I would.
Yes, I know there are fans who seem to like steaming, but I myself do not, nor never will.
Is the reason you wouldn't use products such as Walker Prelude on your RCM, because it would be too difficult-time consuming, or illogical to use on the $5200 Clearaudio RCM?
I've never used the Loricraft to accurately comment on the bad experiences that you've had with one, but I do know people who use them, and I think they have found them to be very good working pieces of equipment, once a person fully understands how to properly set up, and maintain them. Mark |
Yes Koegz, I have no doubt at all that you do take vinyl, and audio playback quite serious, you have assembled quite a fantastic system, and in truth, the Double Matrix costs more than what I have invested in my turntable, but I do get good sound running a ZYX Airy 3, and going into a Sutherland PhD Phono Pre.
I concur what you say, about how sometimes we often have to take the word of others about a certain piece of equipment, then possibly later find out that piece of gear turned out to be a personal disappointment.
Often, very few of us have a brick-mortar store we can walk into, compare, and examine-test a product.
I know the lesser Clearaudio RCM's use similar pricipals to the VPI machines, such as vacuum wand fluid pickup. But clearly, most of the clearaudio gear is built to a higher quality standard, and of course an end user pays for it.
Since little is known about such machines, and many of us just do not know many of the finer details, it is interesting to talk to those that do.
In what the similarities, and/or differences are between the TOTL Double Matrix, and lesser models in the line.
How, if there is any "trickle down" technology used in the lesser machines, thus making them good candidates of choice for somebody who perhaps cannot spend the money on such a state of the art machine.
It probably cannot be done here, in a forum thread, but it would be really nice, if people such as yourself could author a review of the machine?
I'm not in disagreement about hearing that the Loricraft can be difficult to extract proper operation from. I was lucky just to be able to afford the VPI 16.5. But I have modded the unit, with a cooling fan, and acrylic platter-neoprene mat to squeeze-enhance performance.
With the cleaners-techniques I use, I am getting exemplary results as well. Mark |
I'd like commenting again. Lloyd possibly was conducting some curious tests that day, and I would assume that if the Prelude Cleaning System is so good, as everyone claims it is, one wouldn't find a need to resort to steam.
Not in any way berating Prelude, because if what I was using currently became no longer available, the Prelude System would be the one I would most likely turn to-consider. Only possibly dislike I might find with the products, is the need to pre-mix batches of the Enzyme Cleaner.
I'm not here to hype any particular product, but with the products I've been using, I have found no need to resort to the Steamers. One might argue, saying, "well that's because my system isn't high quality-resolving enough to hear the differences". I believe it certainly is, and I don't think one will absolutely need to spring $40K on a Table to clearly know without a doubt, the records are perfectly clean.
Although the ZYX Airy 3X Cartridge is not what I call a "high resolution click+pop finder", as it is a cartridge that plays very quiet in the groove.
I've seen how steam "tacos' records, and there's enough of this on youtube to see such, as when the steam is applied, the record warps crazily. Yes, that goes away once the steamer is pulled away, and the record is left to cool, but to what degree it then returns to its fully original state before such an assault I'm sure is not 100%.
Since the dawn of time with vinyl, it always has been a no no leaving vinyl in a hot car, etc. And that's one good argument as to why I would not wish to create a self made enviornment of hea destruction for my treasured vinyl.
I believe one day, someone will show visually, the effects at the miscroscopic level, before, and after, the evidence of what steam (I prefer to call it hot water) does to the groove.
I'm a firm believer, that if the cleaners that are used are properly designed, in that they do the job they supposed to do, which is detach the contaminants that are found in the groove, and place them into the aqueous solution, so that the vacuum can come along and remove them, then the job is essentially correctly accomplished.
As well, that no residues are left behind due to an inefficient vacuum system, or that the vinyl was damaged by the specific components of a cleaner system. That any residues left behind in the groove, are just another type of contaminant left behind for the Stylus, (and the Ear)
I know there's people here who have a better knack of explaining the sciences involved, and putting them to type better than I. I don't exactly consider myself a William Shakespeare, or someone like Justin_Time when it comes to writing.
Again, do use what you feel is best for you. I am well aware how such topics have controversy about methods-cleaners.
I will lastly say, that common sense causes me to believe that a $500 RCM with the best cleaners, and proper techniques will give head and shoulders better results versus an RCM costing 10 times the price but with inefficient cleaners, rinses, and/or poor technique. Mark |
I would Imagine if Lloyd Walker trusted in such as steam cleaning (which IMO is a misnomer, it's actually hot water) that he would endorse such, and market such to compliment his Prelude System.
It's a shame in a way that manufacturers as such cannot participate in these forums, as we could then get accurate-truthful, and useable information straight from the horse's mouth so to speak.
About Lloyd, I don't personally know the man, but I'm quite certain Walker Prelude wasn't originally concocted on Lloyd's Kitchen Table, nor is the final cleaning formulas manufactured in Lloyd's Kitchen Sink.
He no doubt went the full monty, with degreed chemists, testing, analyzation, testing again, on, and on, till his formulas were perfected, and acceptable for marketing.
I assume that after use of his products, that nothing further needs to be done to the vinyl in a near future tense. Just the dusting, and yes, in time vinyl does need to be recleaned. One cleaning, no matter what the product doesn't insure that the record is now going to stay pristine clean for the rest of its usable life. Mark |
Doug, I agree, common sense dictates that a wand style machine can be a source of re-contamination. But that those inherit qualities can be lessened with a few additional steps. I always assumed as well, the abrasive qualities by physical contact could as well create damage to the vinyl surface, and groove.
A pre-cleaing/pre-dusting before the record reaches the RCM will lessen what the Wand encounters. Periodic replacement of the Vacuum Wand and/or protective velvet strips.
An additional wand dedicated for rinse only will help, and of course the obvious, is a simple additional rinse step at the end.
I understand as well, that groove silence, or the omission of clicks-pops to be used as a gauge to judge a cleaner's-rinses efficiency.
That clicks-pops can be damage, or anomalies in the vinyl that no cleaner, or RCM will magically remove.
Mark |
Peterayer,
And I will still revert back to the last paragraph on my first post on 7-10-10 in this thread, where I said my VPI 16.5 with AVIS Cleaning products will give better results than a $4,000 Loricraft, or a $5200 Clearaudio Double Matrix with lesser cleaners.
I'll still stand behind this statement with no doubt. And as Dan_Ed's discovered, even the steaming has proven less promising than at first thought.
I can forsee some having to "run back to the drawing board" so to speak, just as I once read Doug D. having to do in the past. Meaning an entire collection may have to be gone through again, but the results would probably proove worthy, just as Doug had found.
Thankfully, for somebody like Doug, with all his hands on research, testing, and learning from his experiences, both good, and the not so good, this man has saved me a considerable amount of time, and money from investigating other cleaners on the market. I thank him for placing me on a good path with RCM's, and Cleaners-Rinses.
I know I'm going to sound like a commerical, or shill, but I'm unsure if any of you have tried AVIS's new #15 Pre-Cleaner. I have no affiliation with AIVS, other than being a totally satisfied customer of his products.
I've found this product even more effective as a first step cleaner, it seems to work more quickly, works more efficiently, and is one fine, outstanding product. I highly recommend trying this one, and adding it to your arsenal. You won't be diappointed on how this one works. Mark |
Peterayer,
The best way I can describe AIVS #15 PreCleaner, it is like the Enzymatic Formula on Steroids.
As far as I can tell, no Alcohols are in this product, and I was told it contains not one, but two broadband vegetable based Enzymes.
As I understand it, the #15 PreCleaner can be used as a replacement for the Enzymatic Formula, or in conjunction with the Enzymatic Formula as a following-next step.
The #15 can also be used as well as a first step in a two step cleaning process, and then followed by AIVS #6 One Step Cleaner.
As suggested by Osage Audio, it states #15 PreCleaner is not to be used all by itself as a cleaner.
I myself seem to find a 4-step AIVS process works best on all my records, old, or new, using #15, the Enzymatic Formula, the Super Cleaner, and then lastly, the AIVS Pure Water Rinse.
As Doug states, and I concur, on average, a 5 minute application, and soak seeems just about right with all steps preceeding the Pure Water Rinse.
As for the contest-battle of the RCM's, the Loricraft vs VPI method of fluid removal, I cannot personally give the lowdown, having never used the Loricraft, or any other String Feed Nozzle Type Machine.
Advantages, and disadvantages with both machines-methods I'd assume.
I think Doug is more experienced in that regard, having used-owned both. I would probably recieve no flak, saying that the VPI 16.5 is the "best of the cheap". And the most convenient in the lesser expensive RCMs in this price range.
The new Clearaudio Smart Matrix is in another class, with better build construction, better quality of parts consist than the VPI 16.5, and at twice the price, it should be.
I'd still have to say, it's undeniable, that Harry W/VPI still puts out the best bang for the buck, price king RCM on the market, the VPI 16.5.
Some may argue that, in regards to price, as there are many Nitty Gritty Fans.
I personally like the fact that the VPI has a Platter, on which I can easily apply Fluids, no need to move-flip records for vacuuming, that gravity is on my side to let Fluids sit, and soak as needed, before one chooses to remove. A simple swing of the Vacuum armwand, hit two power switches, and the fluid removal is done in two revolutions of Platter.
As for Doug Deacon, I've been following his personal advice, and reading his posts here for a number of years.
Doug IMO, has always been the voice of unbiased logic, sensibility, and wisdom-knowledge. Mark |
