So what you're saying is you don't have experience with today's class D either.
Class D is affordable and sounds as good or better the SS/Valve why buy anything else ?
I have spent a fair amount of my hard earned money on big ticket brand new SS and VT/Valve amplifiers over the years without hesitation, with state of the art 2019 class D amplifiers becoming cheaper and sounding better, i wouldn't join in again.
For older technology amplifiers SS VT/Valve to compete with State of the art class D, Their prices are going up and up.
One example is Pilium Audio from Greece or Bulgaria their Divine Line the prices are all over £100,000 for their pre amps and power amps, I know the UK importer he said they sound OK,
Another example FM Acoustics again up to and over £100,000 for pre and power amps. i have owned FM Acoustics pre and power again their OK,
I am not saying they do not sound good, i am saying why spend this much when state of the art class D probably sounds as good now and can only improve with the GaN capacitors and is nearly up to 100 times cheaper.
Is there still a market for multi thousand £$s SS or VT/Valve amplifiers ?
When class D finally overtakes SS VT/Valves what will people do with their multi thousand £$ amplifiers, keep them knowing there is something better ? Or will we see the market flood with exotic used amplifiers ?
Digital technology is rapidly growing pace and becoming cheaper, with GaN capacitors being introduced the sound is going to get better and better and will slowly or quickly become even more affordable.
If you had 50,000 to spend on an Amplifier, would you buy a high ticket SS amplifier and hope for the best ?
Would you stay safe and go with high ticket valve amp, class D can never match good valves right ?
Or would you sit tight and see how the GaN capacitors can further improve the performance of state of the art class D ?
Please feel free to join in, everybody is welcome, i think its a very delicate/touchy discussion for some people with big bucks invested in older type amplifiers.
For older technology amplifiers SS VT/Valve to compete with State of the art class D, Their prices are going up and up.
One example is Pilium Audio from Greece or Bulgaria their Divine Line the prices are all over £100,000 for their pre amps and power amps, I know the UK importer he said they sound OK,
Another example FM Acoustics again up to and over £100,000 for pre and power amps. i have owned FM Acoustics pre and power again their OK,
I am not saying they do not sound good, i am saying why spend this much when state of the art class D probably sounds as good now and can only improve with the GaN capacitors and is nearly up to 100 times cheaper.
Is there still a market for multi thousand £$s SS or VT/Valve amplifiers ?
When class D finally overtakes SS VT/Valves what will people do with their multi thousand £$ amplifiers, keep them knowing there is something better ? Or will we see the market flood with exotic used amplifiers ?
Digital technology is rapidly growing pace and becoming cheaper, with GaN capacitors being introduced the sound is going to get better and better and will slowly or quickly become even more affordable.
If you had 50,000 to spend on an Amplifier, would you buy a high ticket SS amplifier and hope for the best ?
Would you stay safe and go with high ticket valve amp, class D can never match good valves right ?
Or would you sit tight and see how the GaN capacitors can further improve the performance of state of the art class D ?
Please feel free to join in, everybody is welcome, i think its a very delicate/touchy discussion for some people with big bucks invested in older type amplifiers.
Showing 50 responses by miveraaudio
Did you compare it to his cheaper 1200AS based amp first? Or did you just assume it was better because of the higher cost? On Audioshark there’s a guy name Marty who has both the Nord NC-500 amp with new rev D buffer along with the Nord 1200AS based amp. He prefers his Nord 1200AS based amp. But he’s probably the only one who’s heard both in the same system. https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=162114.msg1727311#msg1727311 |
The real small place is the land of the old school audiophile. And this market is getting smaller and smaller by the year. In the real world class D amps are almost in everything already today. And moving forward, everyone is going to need to go to class D if they want to stay in business. We are very close to the point where the average music lover is going to have better sounding gear than the old school audiophile. Because the old school audiophile won't let their separates go due to nostalgic reasons. |
@ PLGA: The guy you were referring to on the Audioshark thread was Marty. He thought he preferred the NC-500 with REV D buffers at first, but after more critical listening, he changed his mind. But he didn’t post that part on the same thread. But he did on others, one of which I shared a link to. The NC-500’s with a good buffer is a great amp, but myself along with a dozen or so Nord NC-500 owners, who are now my 1200AS based amp clients, prefer the Icepower 1200AS. If anyone is looking for a Nord NC-500 amp cheap, one of my Purepower clients has been trying to sell his Nord NC-500 monoblocks for months here: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=161211.0 |
When I was at the bar a few months ago with the head engineer from the ESS Sabre DAC division, he told me they are getting out of desktop DAC chips, and going all in on digital input class D amps. The only DAC chips they will continue to build are for mobile devices. Currently under 5% of revenue comes from their desktop DAC chips. 95% comes from their mobile device chips. Once folks hear well implemented digital input class D amps, they will not go back to anything else. I can assure you of this. |
Hypex has also released their NC-2.5K for all OEM's, along with the NC1200. But keep in mind these modules came out in 2011. They are not new technology. Bruno Putzeys, the brains behind those amps has moved on from Hypex, and is now working on digital input class D amps, DSP, and active speakers. He's one guy who knows where the future lies. His latest project is with a team of some of the best brains in audio: https://www.purifi-audio.com I can assure you that they won't be releasing any tube amps or preamps. |
If this is true share the ad where he’s selling them. I get 6-7 emails a week for more amps but not selling them anymore. And why do my amps always sell for the same or more on the used market than they did new if they’re so bad? Is it typical in high end audio for products to sell for the same or more used than new? Browse for some used class A, A/B or tube amps here on Audiogon and find some that are selling for more used than new. |
Well I’m afraid to say you’re behind the times when it comes to the current state of ultra high end audio. Today’s best class D outperforms every other type of amps available. A few years ago I came up with the now widely used concept of using rollable class A discrete opamps to voice the input stage of class D amps to personal taste. This resulted in 1000’s of old school audiophiles dumping class A and tubes for amps such as the Nord one up. But now with advanced DSP integrated into SOTA digital input class D amps, there’s far far more flexibility to voice to taste. Regardless of your personal taste in sound, the next generation of digital input class D amps can be voiced in the digital domain to your exact taste, and room acoustics. You can stop wasting money on cables, preamps, tube buffers etc to voice your gear. The amp can do it all. And far better. And if you get board of the sound, just change the profile rather than dump at a big loss and replace with something different. |
It’s just not black and white like that. These colorations are purposely built into amplifiers to make them more forgiving. This is a strategy that is constantly done with class D amplifiers as well with different input buffers. Even if it drastically reduces the fidelity. Take the PS Audio Stellar 700 amps for example. The stock 700AS modules they use have a dynamic range of 117db. but after PS Audio put’s their magic "Analog cell" input buffer in front of them, it drops 17db down to 100. Why do they do this? To make it more forgiving with the source gear that will likely get paired with an amp at that price point. Well and also because the 700AS modules aren’t that great. They still use circa 2004 ICCX technology. The point I was making is if your goal is extreme fidelity, it’s easy to achieve for cheap with the latest and best class D. Or you could go for something like an $80000 Solution and achieve it with class A as well. I can assure you if you paired a Solution amp with the cheap DAC’s and preamps most people who criticize class D, listen to class D amps through, they would probably say the Solution sucks as well. The price/performance of class D is so much higher than the rest of the audio gear in most peoples systems these days. So the best class D amps aren’t getting the same input quality as an amp like an $80000 Solution would get. Put an Icepower 1200AS based amp into a $200000 rig and then peoples eyes will open. |
It all depends on what you consider the role of an amplifier should be in a system. To faithfully amplify the signal it’s fed, or to add euphonic coloration, and amplify the signal it’s fed. If you enjoy the sound of your source gear as it is, then all you should want is an amplifier that faithfully amplifies the signal it’s fed. If you don’t like the sound of your source gear as it is, then you may want to add some colorations to mask the undesirable sound. Today’s best class D amps are not designed to add euphoric colorations. So to really appreciate them, you have to like the sound of your source gear. But the problem comes because so many audiophiles have no idea how their source gear sounds. Because they have only ever listened to it through a coloured amp. So when an uncoloured amp replaces the coloured amp in their system, and they hear for the first time the actual sound of their source gear, some may not like what they hear. But do you think the blame ever goes to the source gear? Very rarely. The amps end up taking the blame for the shortcomings of the source. This is one reason why I have gone away from analog input amplifiers. It’s too easy to get poor sound with a good amplifier. Because you have no control as a manufacturer to choose what the amplifier is fed, once in the hands of the end user. So most manufacturers end up having to sacrifice fidelity, to make up for the crappy source gear many people have. Icepower did a pretty good job at voicing the 1200AS to make it a bit more forgiving than the Ncore amps. But they are still highly resolving amps that are only limited by the source they are fed. |
@sthlm78: Sure you could use a tube input stage. Or a coloured SS input stage like some use. @helomech: I think the fact that for around $1K can get you the level of sound that's only possible from $20K+ class A or A/B amps, also gives them an advantage. Unless cost, weight, and size is no object for you. In that case buy a Soulution 501 and call it a day. |
@sthlm78: I think Colin at Nord can sell you a pair of his input boards. They're an easy swap. With the Rev D boards, you can choose from over 20 discrete opamps that are compatible. Some are very analog sounding. Drawback is if you want to experiment a lot, it will get expensive. If you want a tubey sound try the Sparko's. They're about as tubey sounding as I've ever heard. |
I call BS. Unless you flew across the country, nobody has a pair of my SE amps anywhere near where you live. I could try to hack into the boards and void the warranty as well. But I like Icepower's historical 0.2% failure rate. Besides I've moved onto much better sounding digital input amplifiers. And you don't even need to buy a DAC or preamp! You're just finally catching up to what was current 1.5 years ago. |
Yes as I said before, buy a $55000 Soulution, and you can achieve a similar result to a $1000 Icepower 1200AS based amp. With a substantial gain of weight and heat. The small amount of gain required in preamps don’t require class d technology. Opamps the size of a couple grains of rice can already achieve enough gain for preamp use. |
Just found this post: "I've heard my Tidal speakers with $100,000 worth of amplification and the ridiculously inexpensive AS1200 is definitely not playing out of its league." https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/20-year-old-amplifiers-compared-to-2017/post?highlight=Mivera... |
@mahgister: This is an issue few audiophile get. They often look for amps that hide the true sound of their source gear. When they should be getting better source gear instead. They chase their tails for years trying to fix problems. But unless you know the source of the problem, it’s hard to fix. They’ll mix a bright component with a soft component to to get that perfect "synergy". When they should just have good sounding source gear, and amps that transparently amplify. As a manufacturer, the more variables that can be taken out of a system, the higher the probability is of the end user achieving the best sound. DSP is the modern way of voicing to speakers, taste and room acoustics. It’s also free when it comes standard with the gear. and it has no limits in flexibility. |
@Seanheis1: Sounds like you’re still living in the late 90’s, early 2000’s. Check out the calendar. It's 2019 now. Today’s best class D like the Icepower 1200AS have several times less distortion in the 1st watt than even the Pass 1st watt class A amps. Feel free to compare in the data sheet: https://icepower.dk/download/5748/ @grannyring Only for a generation that comprises of less than 0.1% of the market, and shrinking daily. Although they feel their opinion matters more than the other 99.9%. |
No need for class D in headphone amps either. Extreme fidelity is already available from tiny 3.5x3.5mm IC's. And they have 1.5w output in that size. Smaller yet if 1.5w isn't needed. I think that's small enough. https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/texas-instruments/TPA6120A2RGYT/296-38029-1-ND/4965625 |
@select-hifi: You got that right. Great quote from my forum: "On Sunday I only get to listen 1 system .it have no problem pushing revel sablon ,the guy couldn’t tell the difference between pass lab 250.8 and Mivera amp.The amp sound better and after a week i have so far.plus i just add 2 Furutech fuses to the amp.the bass improve on the lower end." https://www.miveraaudio.com/forum/purepower-amplifier/purepower-icepower-1200as2-amp-listening-impre... |
Well every metric of industry standard measurements are absolutely impeccable on the 1200AS module. If that's not good enough the subjective impressions are even better: https://www.miveraaudio.com/forum/purepower-amplifier/purepower-icepower-1200as2-amp-listening-impre... What more do you need? |
Highly regarded back in 2001? Or today’s best class D? Today’s best class D is not based on technology from over a decade ago. In fact there's not a single dealer on the planet who is currently selling todays class D. Only available from direct sellers. The dealer sold manufacturers need to blow out their old inventory before introducing this technology. So could still be 1-2 years before you see this in Stereophile. |
Checkout Proton46’s system. Think that’s transparent enough to judge if an amp is good or not? As a former distributor of Accuton drivers I think it is. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/490 The amp on the bottom left contains an Icepower 1200AS amp module. It replaced a $25000 Danish Class A amp. And that was my lowest end version. |
I’ve mentioned several times already in this thread that the new Iceedge technology in the Icepower 1200AS is the best of today’s class D. And I say this after being a dyed in the wool Hypex fan for over 10 years prior. Icepower spent over 10 years and millions of dollars working on this technology. So going to Iceedge from their previous circa 2004 IccX technology all of their other amp modules use, represents a 13 year leap. Not just a 1-2 year leap. This is why so many clients of mine have tossed their $10000+ class A and A/B amps for pennies on the dollar, and replaced with Icepower 1200AS based amps. More info available here: https://icepower.dk/download/1621/ It's also why Mivera Audio amps have the industry's highest resale value. |
@Kosst: You’ll need to read the datasheets to find that info. Without reading the datasheets, you won’t see this information. Great example here: https://icepower.dk/download/5748/ It’s far more comprehensive than what you’ll find from any class A or A/B manufacturer. So don’t get confused. Hmmmm... Share some mediocre class A/B amps with 127db dynamic range please. |
All on 4-18-18? I guess you need to learn how to use today's computers as well as learn about today's best amps. These reviews are spread out over 9 months. I had another 41 reviews on Audiocircle. But they all got binned. I sold over 200 amps in 1 year, so 70 or so reviews is pretty decent. I never paid a penny on advertising. I suppose All pictures of my amps in different listening rooms are all photoshopped as well hey? |
Actually the Icepower 1200As has 0.002% THD+N @ 1w. Note the this is THD+N not just THD. This is like 10x better than the very best Pass Labs first watt class A amp. Which is designed to have the lowest 1st watt distortion of any class A amp. Actually Pass doesn’t even share THD+N. Only THD. Could be up to 100x lower THD. The luddites really need to update their brains with todays tech. Bill Clinton is no longer president, and Class A is no longer king. Edit: Just read the Pass labs F5 has 60uV noise @1w. The Icepower 1200AS has 30uV noise @ 1w. And you get 1250W! Not just a measly 40W |
@duckworp: No religion, just data and facts. Religion is believing something is better with no data and facts to back it. This is the story of the class A fanboys. 1 fact I've noticed about class A is it sure takes a massive hit in resale value on the used market! You lose more money in resale the day you buy a class A amp, than it costs to buy 2-3 better sounding class D amps! |
You know it takes more than just saying bs to make it true. What you’re saying is a feeble attempt to fool folks who don’t understand the data to believe what you say is true. However most people who are into audio understand subjective feedback. And the subjective feedback of today’s class D compared to today’s class a, a/b and tubes, tells us that today’s class D is hands down superior. When both the objective data and subjective client feedback is superior, this means the product is hands down superior. Bar none. |
It's becoming clear that very few folks around here have experience with today's class D. And it's understandable why. It hasn't made it into any big brand commercial products yet. The reason why is because it takes a couple years for new technology to make it into big brand products, because they have loads of inventory to burn through first. This is where the little guys have a massive advantage. For example within 1 week of first auditioning the 1200AS module, I already had 66 amplifiers sold. The 1200AS modules will be going in many big brand commercial amps soon. Expect to see reviews in Stereophile within a year or 2. Only these amps will need to sell for 3-4 times more than the direct sellers can do it for due to inefficiencies in the supply chain. |
@clearthink. The data provided in the Icepower 1200AS data sheet is a comprehensive report of well established industry standard measurements. It’s this data that’s used in the world of audio to prove objective performance. Subjective client feedback is a way to gauge how the products are accepted once out in the field. Then we have other metrics like cost, size, weight, efficiency, reliability etc. Today’s class D is hands down the winner in every single one of the above mentioned categories. What more do we need than that? |
Perhaps I should be a bit more clear about the data I've collected over the last 4 years regarding today's class D technology. Back in 2015, after several months of tweaking an NC-500 based amp, I decided to publicly disclose an input buffer design using discrete class A opamps that are rollable to adapt the amp to personal taste and system synergy. the first to adopt this buffer design was Colin at Nord. Colin went on to sell well over a million dollars worth of amplifiers using this buffer design. Massive resource here on how that went on the most successful thread in Audioshark history: https://www.audioshark.org/amplifiers-8/nord-one-up-ncore-nc500-amps-class-d-ready-prime-time-9369.h... Currently 5-6 companies world wide are using this buffer design in their commercial NC-500 based amps. And I estimate around 2.5 million USD in combined sales between them all. And close to 100% positive feedback. This is some substantial data collected here! Next up I went on to selling over 200 Icepower 1200AS amplifiers, and so far the feedback has been the best that I've seen yet from any new amplifier technology. My next phase is moving into digital input class d technology. And it's by far the most exciting yet! |
No OEM's are not allowed to sell kits based on Icepower amp modules. I sold 20 kits at first, but then I found out about this policy and stopped. The power supply is integrated into the board. It's a complete self contained unit. Just apply power and connect speakers. Regarding Pascal, they haven't improved upon their technology since 2011-2012. They have made new modules with better efficiency, but none of them feature anything new that increases the sound quality. And they haven't made any claims about increased sound quality with this new lineup. The last time I tried an amp from them it was the M-PRO2, and I felt at the time that even my early generation NC-500 based build sounded better. |
Sorry Ric but the 1200AS based amps that are being sold on the market today by manufacturers who are selling both Hypex and 1200AS based amps are the lowest profit margin products in their lineup. They aren’t just using a linear BOM based markup that’s identical on all of their amps. They are selling each product for the most they figure they can get away with selling them at. And where is this measured data that is showing you switching noise on all frequencies with the 1200AS? The only data you have seen on this module is in the data sheet. And it certainly doesn’t show any there. As for the rest of your personal attack, it also falls under the prohibited content in the guidelines. |