miveraaudio, your post is very interesting, thanks for writing it. To agree with it one needs to buy into the concept that analog amplifiers are colored and that class D are not. I believe that this part of your discussion is open to argument.
Class D is affordable and sounds as good or better the SS/Valve why buy anything else ?
I have spent a fair amount of my hard earned money on big ticket brand new SS and VT/Valve amplifiers over the years without hesitation, with state of the art 2019 class D amplifiers becoming cheaper and sounding better, i wouldn't join in again.
For older technology amplifiers SS VT/Valve to compete with State of the art class D, Their prices are going up and up.
One example is Pilium Audio from Greece or Bulgaria their Divine Line the prices are all over £100,000 for their pre amps and power amps, I know the UK importer he said they sound OK,
Another example FM Acoustics again up to and over £100,000 for pre and power amps. i have owned FM Acoustics pre and power again their OK,
I am not saying they do not sound good, i am saying why spend this much when state of the art class D probably sounds as good now and can only improve with the GaN capacitors and is nearly up to 100 times cheaper.
Is there still a market for multi thousand £$s SS or VT/Valve amplifiers ?
When class D finally overtakes SS VT/Valves what will people do with their multi thousand £$ amplifiers, keep them knowing there is something better ? Or will we see the market flood with exotic used amplifiers ?
Digital technology is rapidly growing pace and becoming cheaper, with GaN capacitors being introduced the sound is going to get better and better and will slowly or quickly become even more affordable.
If you had 50,000 to spend on an Amplifier, would you buy a high ticket SS amplifier and hope for the best ?
Would you stay safe and go with high ticket valve amp, class D can never match good valves right ?
Or would you sit tight and see how the GaN capacitors can further improve the performance of state of the art class D ?
Please feel free to join in, everybody is welcome, i think its a very delicate/touchy discussion for some people with big bucks invested in older type amplifiers.
For older technology amplifiers SS VT/Valve to compete with State of the art class D, Their prices are going up and up.
One example is Pilium Audio from Greece or Bulgaria their Divine Line the prices are all over £100,000 for their pre amps and power amps, I know the UK importer he said they sound OK,
Another example FM Acoustics again up to and over £100,000 for pre and power amps. i have owned FM Acoustics pre and power again their OK,
I am not saying they do not sound good, i am saying why spend this much when state of the art class D probably sounds as good now and can only improve with the GaN capacitors and is nearly up to 100 times cheaper.
Is there still a market for multi thousand £$s SS or VT/Valve amplifiers ?
When class D finally overtakes SS VT/Valves what will people do with their multi thousand £$ amplifiers, keep them knowing there is something better ? Or will we see the market flood with exotic used amplifiers ?
Digital technology is rapidly growing pace and becoming cheaper, with GaN capacitors being introduced the sound is going to get better and better and will slowly or quickly become even more affordable.
If you had 50,000 to spend on an Amplifier, would you buy a high ticket SS amplifier and hope for the best ?
Would you stay safe and go with high ticket valve amp, class D can never match good valves right ?
Or would you sit tight and see how the GaN capacitors can further improve the performance of state of the art class D ?
Please feel free to join in, everybody is welcome, i think its a very delicate/touchy discussion for some people with big bucks invested in older type amplifiers.
Showing 42 responses by jetter
tweak1, are you related to Henny Penny, we are big boys and girls here and can handle our amps losing value, you mentioning it repeatedly only shows it would be a big blow to you? That and your buddies emphasis on the low cost of class D indicates you are likely in economy mode. No reason for you to think the rest of us are. Why pigeon hole yourself on a thread? |
"Is there still a market for multi thousand £$s SS or VT/Valve amplifiers ?" "When class D finally overtakes SS VT/Valves what will people do with their multi thousand £$ amplifiers, keep them knowing there is something better ? Or will we see the market flood with exotic used amplifiers ?" Agee 213runnin. Select-hifi, you could have fooled me about the reason you started this thread. If you reread your original post it mostly talks about how all previous amplifiers will be made obsolete by class D and the owners will need to "dump" them, inferring large monetary losses. How can you come up with any other message being related? But congratulations, your original post is then exceeded by a lame and discourteous infomercial by a class D vender . On this site everyone is entitled to their own opinion. |
"You may be one of hes first customers, He has definitely got my interest, Better sound cheaper prices is all good right ?" Hi select-hifi, regarding sound and price, for $1,000 more you can purchase a new pass XA25, for $1,000 less you can purchase a new parasound A21+. Whereas you may think the Parasound is not a great amp, the previous A21 model still sells for over 50% of its retail, so many, including myself disagree. Plus these companies customer service excel and will be there when you need them. Not saying mivera won't but what's the track record that can be counted on? |
miveraaudio…."Step 1 is accepting that there's even a possibility that this technology could be superior. Many around here won't even take that step." The problem is you are dealing with a group of people who are so open minded that you cannot understand us. You simply have not provided any evidence that would convince intelligent people other than "you have to believe me". And when we say you need to do better than that you become frustrated. |
You may be correct, but I would venture a guess that a lot of people still consider class D as an evolving technology. It is your prerogative to consider this technology at its apex at this moment. But there is also the possibility that new breakthroughs will makes todays class D antiquated. I would only point out the patent that atmosphere has filed. I know you are excited at the new technology, and I don't wish to take away from it, but you are asking us to spend our money on something and sell our equipment and some of us just aren't receptive today, maybe tomorrow? |
From the 1,000 foot level this is how I am looking at it. There has always been a handful of A’goners who have mentioned their preference for class D. Now we have an unfamiliar poster relating to us how great the new amps are, and he is supported by a few people on this thread who we have little knowledge of their past amps and sonic preferences. Their posts often start with "I have had many $1,000’s in amps and these beat them all." The problem with this logic is how do we know that they will not have another class of amp they love next week. Several persons buying a piece of equipment and repeatedly touting it as incredible is as common as white bread here on A’gon. You only need to look up a piece of equipment and see 100’s of post about how great it is, and then start reading in detail only to find its the same three or four posters repeating over and over. Thus far the only poster on this thread that has me thinking of the merits of class D is Atmasphere. When some A’goners we are familiar with have these new "better" class D amps and report their findings then based on their opinions we will feel comfortable with proclaiming them the best or not. For the most part, as far as I have read, no one is saying the new class D amps are not better, we are just saying that sufficient tangible information has not been provided on which a "reasonable" person could base a decision one way or the other. What amp are we even talking about? |
nordacoustics, feel free to not answer this post if you feel it is not a proper question. To me there is lot discussion regarding technology that I don’t have the faintest idea which is the good, better and best. I have looked at your webpage. It sounds like you may have a new amp coming out soon with the latest technology. My question is if a person was going to wait for this to come to pass, what would be the cost for a pair of the best sounding monoblocks? Thanks |
tweak1....."As more low fi companies switch to class D (including auto) parts for non class D amplification will evaporate. I am shocked to see Parasound double down with revising their A/B series amps, Those of us promoting class D are merely trying to warn you that your amps will soon be dinosaurs... Mike, unlike several jealous menopausal boys here, I would like to follow you. How about starting your own thread?..... tweak1, you listened to two recordings and they sounded great, but are talking about selling your m700’s in the same breath. You were minveraaudios rude disciple, you know how sorry some of are he isn’t posting here anymore? Why not take his lead and not waste your time repeating the same redundant message to us "jealous menopausal boys"? |
duckworp, rest assured that miveraaudio was an aberration for Audiogon and should not be considered indicative of how Audiogon normally operates. We have spirited banter at times but not as experienced in this thread. Also, the several persons who jumped in to help spread his toxins in the same vein as him are not long time regular contributors. Just as you mentioned, I would not buy anything from this individual no matter its sonics, quality and price. I would buy class D if other members of this forum had them for sale. |
class D advocates, there is a really HUGE point you all are missing. Ninety percent of us are not doubting that class D is better than, as good as, or worse than any other class amp. What we are saying is that we honestly just don’t care one way or the other, for us its just not that important. Class D has been here for years and their marked improvement lately is fantastic. If you love them, buy them, its not our concern, but don’t get hung up on what and the quality of what we buy. Its nice that you all care so much about how our systems sound and the big loss we may have on selling our amps, but its also a little weird. Enjoy your music. |
Awww come on, we’ve been waiting all day fer ya to post them.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVSRm80WzZk |
…..."Seems to be, with the self obsessed, that are trying to out do each other with anything but what the topic of this thread is about. " Kinda funny ….."Please select-hifi OP put an end to it, if it were a lame horse you’d do it." ^^^^ +++1 ....."Btw, which parts of your new amp works better than the old one? what is your speakers and speakers cables?" Skull earphone, why not let this thread that is a stain on A’gon in terms of rudeness die? Why are you feeding it? |
"What does all this BS have to do with the title of this thread?" Thank goodness it has little if not anything to do with the title. Perhaps you did not have the unpleasant experience of reading through this thread. Same simple message repeated 1,000 times where twice was enough for those with normal comprehension. . |
select-hifi, I was not familiar with your Edge NL Reference monoblocks and was just reading about them (I think). Now that I have, wow, it is amazing that your old system which, unless I am mistaken, had $141,000 retail monoblock amplifiers driving the expensive Nola Grand Reference speakers did not sound as good as your current system having your class D amps and the less expensive Soundlab Dynastats? I will want to try a class D amp in a year or two when the dust settles a little on their development. |
Thanks for the discussion aolmrd. Part of the allure of class D is the reports of their musical quality (have not heard one) and continuing improvements combined with what appears to be the lowering of their price as the technology becomes more successful, not unlike led 4K tv’s. I believe that select-hifi’s amps retailed at around $3,000. I am enjoying my current amp so am not in a hurry to get another at this point. But with what appears to be significant further improvements coming to already good class D I will look forward to buying one in a year or two. For my purposes, their competition is a Pass Labs XA25. |
…"Can acoustic waves affect the audio signal in wires, cables, etc? How about magnetism? Electric static charge? Radio Frequency Interference? Seismic structureborne vibration and induced vibration? Vibration of the CD and the CD transport mechanism?"... Results will differ depending on proximity to true magnetic north as well as time span until next geomagnetic reversal.. |
select hifi, "Hearing what my system sounds like, no Class D Amplifier manufacturer will need help if they all sound like mine." I’m just another poster and I DO BELIEVE you are telling it how it is. And I am the first to say I have never heard a class D amplifier (other than in a sub) and am not familiar with your current speakers. But what would you think if my current system had $3,000 class D amps, and speakers which as far as I can tell currently go for $1,200 and I said it sounded better than when my system had retail $140,000 amps driving speakers which look like they retailed for guessing $10,000-20,000? I believe in technology and will in several years time get a class D amp. But its hard to not think maybe there was something not working correctly in your prior rig. |
sthlm78, I have an amp that I am really enjoying now, so I think I will want to try a class D amp in a year or two when all the planned enhancements to the technology happen. Do you think it would be an unwise purchase to buy a class D amp now when it is pretty much everyone's opinion that the improvements in the wings will make the current offering past tense? That is, unless the improvements can be retrofitted to current amps? |
This is primarily an enthusiasts site, so I am going to say what is on my mind versus what a class D manufacturer or dealer might want to hear. I think that if you are buying a class D amp now that you are doing so with the knowledge that todays class D amps may be outdated sooner than later with the class D developing technology being discussed. It will make a difference if the new technology is modular and can be retrofitted into existing class D amps. Maybe flat screen tv versus 4K is a good example. The good news is that there appears to be some really good sounding class D amps that can be purchased today at very reasonable prices, so any hit will not be that large. |
select hifi: "In the UK Naim is HIFI not for music lovers, its all about PRAT its not musical at all. Big £$ signs does not mean "musical" sorry no disrespect just being honest." "I can now see why you never got on with class D. " You have written the exact same message 140 times. You insult anyone who disagrees with your boring one line message. Must be the famous UK dry humor thing. |