Class Action Suit against UPS?

How many of us are getting our Audio Equipment Destroyed by United Parcel Service. A brand new BAT amp claim was denied even though UPS lost it for two weeks. Although FEDX costs more, they take better care of Audio Equipment. Anyone having problems with UPS?
Trust me, Fedex is no better. I've had to fight with them twice now, and they've denied the second claim, even though the inspector wrote in his report that it was clearly the fault of fedex. Just want everyone to know that fedex is no better than ups. They were at one time, but no more.
Yes, UPS just lost a pair of cables, and their resonse was "well, the address was wrong." But that was the address their moron clerk typed on the receipt after I read it to him correctly twice on the phone, not the address I correctly put on the package itself. If they don't honor the insurance claim, I will sue the bastards, and report it as consumer fraud to every consumer protection agency I can find.
Yes, I was awaiting delivery of some Stealth PC Premier Speaker Cables, and was tracking the package online. The day I was expecting the package, expecting a line item like "Delivered", instead I saw this "Code ...." something meaningless like that. I had to phone them (they didn't contact me), and it turned out that the package has mysteriously become empty during transit. Luckily the shipper insured the package, but suspect he's having trouble claiming on the insurance. UPS also damged a CD Player and a DVD player I shipped. They never honored the claim. They also destroyed several suits of mine during transit. They never honored the claim. They also failed to arrive on a scheduled delivery pick up day - no phone call or anything. They are a disaster. There are plenty of UPS bashing sites on the web, but I'd say it would be difficult to find a Fedex bashing site - Fedex is just so reliable. I'd like to see more people on Audiogon and other sites specify "No UPS delivery". They deserve to fail.
I have not had the problems that Soupcon has had. In the South, where I live, UPS is almost guaranteed to lose or destroy any fragile shipment that they handle. By contrast, I have had 4 pair of mono amps (8 boxes!) and three tube shipments sent via Federal Express in the last 5 months, and the boxes were not even soiled, much less damaged. I am told that UPS is particularly bad going into Texas and Florida (this by a manufacturer) he actually uses three different carriers, each one based on where he is shipping to. I suspect results have to do with a huge set of factors, many of which, we on the outside have no knowledge or control over. The only carrier that has a record of no damage or loss for me, I have used now for nearly 10 years, Delta Air Cargo. The shipper takes to the airport, I pick up here at DFW. Often the cargo is sill in the container, where it is alongside flowers, live animals and other precious cargo. The cost? about the same as UPS. This experience with Delta was passed on to Soundlab several years ago (by me), and they now use this method in every part of the country where it will work. One warning, Delta is EXTREMELY careful about packing and inspection. Do not be surprised if they make you completely open and unpack the contents of your shipment, they are almost guaranteed to want to inspect your packing and to look for hazardous materials or explosives. If this bothers you, I suggest you choose another carrier, as part of this procedure is Federal Law.
Well Ihad a good experience with UPS and a bad one,But I'm not trying to be prejudiced because I work for the Postal Service.It seems like the damage is done inside the sorting facilities,not the delivery drivers.The sorters in the hubs usually are temporarys folks who are in college and they are told to work FAST.And this is wher the troubles occur.UPS is in buisness to make LOOT,it's privately ownes,not like the Postal Service.But evn in the Postal Service yes my employer who I use to ship stuff out to other audiofiles like myself.The bottom line is to OVERPACK the items youre shipping,I used UPS to ship a Macintosh C-33 to Japan and since my buddy overpacked the preamp it arrived intact.I can guarantee you that UPS like the Postal Service will make you wait a long time before you get your claim finalized and paid off.Look at it this way they all ship MILLIONS of packages daily so as far as I know the damage rate is less than 5%,and remember the sorters have to empty those trailers real fast or they are out of a job.So they tend to throw the boxes to the front of the trailer tten another sorter places them on the conveyor belt and it gets sortd by sorters who learn a schems and go by colors to the destination to where it gets loaded into the brown delivery trucks.Hpoe this helps all to understand how the delivery services work.
I used to have a guy who worked for me, who once worked at UPS. He rose to a fairly high level, at his location. Did so via hard work, dedication, etc. He told me some REAL horror stories about how merchandise is "handled" there. Especially in terms of being more than a little rough. He said that the people there just frantically throw things into the truck. Forget about the fragile label. The only thing that they are striving for is speed. Be glad you are not shipping fine china or crystal...
It is not the company but the method of transport. If you ship UPS air you will have fewer damages just like fed-ex. If you ship Fed-ex ground you will have more damages, just like UPS ground. Most people who make this statements do not realize they are not comparing apples to apples.
I am a frequent shipper via UPS-ten to twenty packages per week-and average one to two damage incidents per year. I ship fine art; paintings in delicate frames, art glass, bronzes and have concluded that packaging, able to withstand rough handling, is a must. can be done.
I have had mostly good experience with UPS, but had enough problems that I most definitely worry every time I use UPS. Fed Ex has been flawless for me so far. Which leads to my question: Have any of you tried FED EX'S NEW GROUND SERVICE? It's competitively priced with UPS.
I only use fed ex ground now,and it is way way faster and more satisfactory than the ups. I just sent a pair of dynaudio's about 135lbs to be exact and not a problem and they showed up in four days to the buyer, it cost me about 12bucks in packing and about 52.00 in shipping handling and insurance, to sum it up Yes UPS sucks and I will never use them again! (they always say 3-5 business days and it normally takes 10days-2weeks, I have never had this problem VIA FEDEX>
I am in the process of dealing with a UPS claim as i type this. I bought some gear from someone in California and they shipped it to me via UPS ground here in Chicago. When the driver delivered it, part of the amplifier was hanging out of the box, the heat sinks had chunks missing out of them and some of the remaining "fins" on that side were pretty bent up. I new enough to have the driver input into his terminal that the package had been retaped and that the contents were damaged. Upon further inspection in the same lot of gear, a preamp that was also shipped from the same individual had a rack handle physically ripped from the faceplate, taking that entire portion of the face with it. The power cord was severed on that piece also. Both boxes looked like they had literally fallen out of the back of a truck and it was quite obvious that they had attempted to retape / repack the equipment somewhere along the way. All of this with very large "fragile" stickers on the boxes. The killer part is that these pieces were packed and shipped from an authorized UPS shipping station with all of the boxes & packing materials purchased there. The station attendants were the ones that actually did the packing and labeling. So far, everything looks good in terms of having them pay the claim, as i have "been there, done that" with UPS on several other occasions and have learned some of the in's & out's. Either way, it has been a rather unpleasant experience. For the record, Fed Ex ground (formerly RPS) IS better than UPS in terms of damage but i have found them to be LESS timely in terms of delivery. Can't speak for how fair they are on claims though, as i've luckily never had to deal with that. Albert's suggestion of Delta Air Cargo / Delta Express is VERY valid, as i've used them in the past also. For shipping very heavy items, the best prices and service that i've attained has come from Overnite Express. They are "non-union" and the employees are at much greater risk of losing their job for improper packing, abusive treatment of cargo, etc... The bottom line with any of this stuff, regardless of the carrier, is that EVERYTHING needs to be packed like it was glass and would be handled by gorilla's. LITERALLY. Sean >
Fedex dropped a BAT preamp that I bought on Audiogon. They paid the damage to the shipper about a month afterwards, but then it took a while to get the money handed over to me. UPS lost a COD check for over $2000 on the preamp that I sold. It's funny that they never get you to sign for those COD checks. Moral: There is danger in buying and selling equipment over the net and having it shipped. Overpack (double box--don't keep reusing the old boxes), keep your receipts, and have good communication between the buyer and seller.
FedEx Ground (formerly RPS) is a big ripoff. Their shipping is competitive with UPS, but they will try to charge you a $10.00 weekly fee for pick-up. Each time I've used them they've done this, even though I didn't request a weekly pick-up schedule. The cost for shipping + the fee adds up to more than it would cost for FedEx 2nd Day service. Additionally, if it's a COD, I've waited 3 - 4 weeks for the check to be delivered to me. It would have been faster for the buyer to send me the check in the mail! I've used FedEx 2nd Day service and have never had a problem and the COD checks arrive usually 2 - 3 days after delivery.
UPS is great!!!!!!!!!!! They dropped poked holes in my drivers in my thiel 2.3's I got brand new drivers from Thiel. Paid for by UPS. Anyway, I now only ship things FedEx.
Man, I don't know where to start. First off, UPS made a huge dent in my Castle Severn speakers. Then punched out a woofer in my Aerius. Then I shipped out Golden Tube SE-100 from Chicago to Florida-- the whole inside shifted, and nothing worked in the unit. They wouldn't pay me back despite I had all original packaging and insurance. I fought them for 2 months to get the money back. They twice sent out a guy who had no authority to overturn the ruling. After numerous phone calls, they finally sent out a manager to give my money back-- and I had to fight HIM for 30 min for it. I absolutely DEPISE UPS. I've learned my lessons-- I always use FEDEX now. Courteous, punctual, and much nicer. Good luck with you case.
Very good luck here so far with FedX economy. UPS can only handle cables or other unbreakables, but FedX is pretty competitive now so why give the UPS baboons your money? I only ship that carrier if my customer specifically requests it. I always advise against UPS & tell them they're pretty much on their own if they receive a damaged box or nothing at all. Hoping UPS will go under; they're only getting worse.
I use US Postal Service "priority mail" for cables and small items. It's a quarter of the cost, almost always air-freight and no problems. It takes three to four days, but with my coin hobbie on eBay I've yet to lose a package in about 600 deliveries!
i've had two claims issues w/ups, & both times, they paid, no questions asked, and both times, it was obviously the sellers' fault - once, the packaging was *unbelievably* bad, the second time, there was absolutely *no* shipping damage - the shipper sent damaged merchandise (not electronics). if *i* were ups, i woodn't a paid *either* claim.

regarding quantity of incidents occuring, i know someone who works at fedex, & they deliver ~4 million parcels every day. (i'm sure ups' volume is a *lot* greater.) if fedex has a 99.99% successful delivery rate, that still means 400 packages lost/damaged every day.

i think folks have to be a bit more realistic w/their expectations. as said before, over-pack, get as much buyer-seller info as possible, and make sure the merchandise is properly insured.


Excellent points, Sedond.
My friend who bought the Diva 6.1 speakers I had previously posted about had his delivered by UPS.He went to the truck to help the dude get them off.The boxes were huge and double boxed.My friend saw one of the boxes was damaged quite badly.He asked the delivery dude what happened and his response was "I dont know but I've seen much worse" He got them in the house then called me to come help him unbox them.One speaker was perfect.The one with the damaged box had the grill totally sheered off from the force of being dropped.The round tabs from the grill were broken off in the speaker holes.The packing of the speakers was very good.Lots of syrofoam and each speaker was in a heavy cloth bag.The large,thick styrofoam blocks that were on top and bottom of the damaged speaker were shattered as if it had been dropped from 2-3 feet.I realize he should have refused delivery but.... anyway the speaker is fine other than the grill.UPS paid the claim ($15) without question and Diva is sending him a new grill.BTW the Diva 6.1 is a killer speaker for $1300.00/pair!
Well said sedond! I think many of us have come to take for granted the great shipping powers that be. I work for a scientific instrument company (similar issues to Hifi gear in regards to shipping) I receive equal #'s of damamge claims for both Fed X and UPS. Considering the thousands of packages we ship every year, 99.98% arrive unharmed and on time. That's pretty good odds and service. Protect your Johnson, opps I mean Conrad Johnson! Good packing is a must. I have noticed that items I have purchased from dealers on this site are sent with the mimimal packaging possible if any at all. The boxes they use are usually from some other product, and have minimal if any peanuts, etc if any at all. On the other hand ALL the items I have purchased from individuals in the classified have come packaged much better. I wonder why this is? Could it be that individuals selling their goods would care more if the item arrives undamaged? I think so. I am concerned that the dealers don't care enough. They seem to figure that they have the buyers money, if the buyer receives damaged goods the buyer will have to follow up with the shipper if the dealer is not willing. It costs extra money to package items well. I know because we spend big bucks on special packing materials, approved boxes for shipping, etc. Therefore we get very few claims for damage. Insist that gear is double boxed, fully insured and there are a few terms you should be aware of. There is FOB destination and FOB origin. Destination is where the title for the goods becomes the sellers once it leaves the dock (origin) In this case the buyer is responsible for following up with any claim. FOB Destination means that the buyer does not accept title until it is delivered and signed for. In this case if the box is all banged up or physically appears to have damage on the outside of the package, do not sign for it and the seller will have to follow up for claims for damage. I am not even sure if this applies now that I think about it. Our company will follow up with any claim and replace any item free of charge if for any reason the buyer is not happy. How many HIFI dealers are willing to do this? Hmmmmmmm?
Brian at HelloHifi only using DHL doesn't sound like such a bad idea after reading all these horror stories. Has anyone ever had a DHL shipment damaged?
Angela~ Do you work for Brian? DHL is a premium service and does not ship near as many packages as Fed x or UPS. Therefore, they don't even qualify to be judged comparativly to these other shippers. Dhl is twice as much as UPs and still more than fed x. Why, if DHL is so fantastic, are they not exclusively recommended by ALL the dealers? You said in a previous thread that DHL was inconvenient for you, now however you are interested in learning more about DHL? I can tell you ALL shippers get complaints for damaged goods. DHL is a much smaller company than the big two, but I am sure that there is somebody out there who has received a damaged DHL package. In fact I willing to bet several damaged packages. It's called doing business not living it ferry land. It seems like you are trying to get support for Hellohifi and their DHL shipping policy. Which by the way would require you to ship with this carrier if you won rubber bands at one of his auctions. This seems reasonable to you? I have had numerous packages including 2K amp shipped UPS. Damaged goods=0. I am a happy customer with both UPS and Fed x. Could they be better, probably. Will I ever ship DHL? If it's competitive and it's MY choice, maybe. Whatever reason Brian has for shipping DHL, I can assure you it is not because of his worry or concern for you. It is because that is what works for him and his profits. Go check out the other dealers on Audiogone and see how many require or even suggest you ship DHL. Do you think Brian know's something these other dealers don't. I doubt it. Check it out and let us know how many dealers suggest or require you to ship DHL? I bet just 1. And we already know who that is. Please don't take this the wrong way. I saw your post and seems to be attempting to support Brian and his ridiculous ideas. How many other folks out there agree with me or think DHL is the way to go. Give me a thumb up or down. I guess that's why they put it there. Cheers!
My apologies to everyone regarding this thread. My last post was written in a moment of frustration. I can only tell you this. I had such an unpleasant experience with Brian at Hellohifi that just seeing his name kind of throws me into a fit. When I see someone (whether they realize it or not) supporting this guys methods (which are out of the dark ages) it makes me want to scream! I don't feel this way about many folks but I do towards this guy. Go check out the feedback on Hellohifi. Hmmm 1000 great comments! Yeah that's because he deletes any that are not to his liking which I can assure you are quite numerous and for a variety of bad service issues including his requiring you to ship DHL. Sorry Angela, it's not you but I will not sit by and let others support him. I don't care if they are giving stuff away, I will not support his kind of rude, insolent, arogant, know-it all, tire-kicker hater, bullshit! That's all I got to say. You like this guy then have it. I won't sell my soul to save a few bucks, and you shouldn't either.
Hey, no prob,Axomoxa! I was just asking if anyone has had damage when shipping DHL. Maybe I was subcontiously trying to stir up something by mentioning the "B" word (mmmm and I thought that there was only one "B" word) Just remember, breath........ hey, there's another ! :-)
Angela, you weren't the only one who had that thought (the apparent symetry in those two threads). DHL is more expensive than UPS or Fed-Ex. Levinson is also more expensive than Sony. Most people claim there's no difference between Levinson and Sony, or that the difference doesn't merit the price. Just some points to consider.
I Love UPS!! They are keeping people employed who use to be pushing all their belongings down the street in a Grocery Cart.
Robba ~ how many folks you think own levinson as compared to Sony? Just like how many people ship fed x as compared to DHL? A no brainer. Fed x and UPS work well for most people, just a few levison types who feel that by paying more they neccessarily get better. I have never in all my years in this hobby had somebody say Levison sounds just like Sony. Only a fool would say that, so I am not sure what your point is. Futher, in your pro-DHL view, I doubt that you can provide any evidence that DHL in any way exceeds Fed x or UPS. Can you? That may be your opinion but it is just that, an opinion. Will all the folks who ship DHL exclusively please step forward so we can see who you are? Rather than ranting any further about this, I would like to make a suggestion which may save you some time. Rather than the time and expense of a class action lawsuit, don't you think it would be better to package gear more carefully (double boxed) Use fed x for fragile, ups for non-fragile, have your shipment insured for the full amount of replacement (I think it cost me like 12 buck to insure my 2K amp), save yourself a few bucks and let god handle the rest? I know I will be sitting here listening to my amp while you worry about class acton lawsuits and what simple measures you forgot to take before having your gear shipped. Just some other points to consider.
hi robba,

most people don't even know what levinson *is*, let alone whether or not one sounds better than the other. those who *do* know what it is, surely claim there's a difference between the two. those who don't think the difference merits the price - they don't get off on music-listening.

doug *doesn't get off on shipping* sedon ;~)

Speaking of Class action law suits....go check out the thread in HelloHifi shipping DHL and why? There ought to be class action law suit against this guy.
I'm actually suprised you have the balls to come in here and defend yourself, being the slime you are. This area is for members to discuss bafoons like you. While you're at it, you didn't tell the real history in your pathetic post above. Go check your records for Then come back and post your response to my inquiry on the VTL preamp. Oh, yea now you remember don't you, you fuck! I am the guy that asked a couple of questions and blasted me for having a hotmail account and accused me of being a tire kicker. And when I told you that was kind of jerkey you proceeded to blast me with emails regarding what a looser I am. Oh you can't find those? Yeah, I'm making this all up and don't have anything better than to screw with you? Right! No, what my problem is, is guys like you that think they can screw everybody and get away with it. Well you no what, I'm not going to let you. Now go crawl back under the rock you came out from under and stay out the discussion. Oh you are afraid that others might see might point of view? To bad cause I'm going to be here for a long long long time. I promise.
Axomoxa - My opinions are what they are - opinions. My point in the Levinson - DHL analogy was that sometimes added quality does cost more. Although I'm quite aware that sometimes things that cost more are not necessarily of added quality. I do use UPS & Fed-Ex on various occaions. When I have an important package that must be somewhere, I use DHL. I have had problems (mostly delays) with UPS and Fed-Ex, I have never had a problem with DHL. That's my experience. It's also the experience of others that I do business with. I admit that this is all anecdotal evidence, but I really don't have the time, energy, or inclination, to conduct a scientific study on the reliability of various packaging services. For what it's worth, I tend to buy things in bricks and mortors, so my packaging experience has more to do with the business that I conduct than my own personal use. If you prefer to use UPS, I don't begrudge you that, just as I don't begrudge people who buy their stereos from Best Buy. I just ask that you show me the same courtesy.
Robba ~ You have my respect and apologies for my pointed post. I appear to be suffering from a pointed head this week. Further I am afraid that due to unrelated and unresolved issues with this site, the issues have influenced my behavior. I agree with everything you have said above and conduct my shipping in a similar matter. I was coming to the defense of UPS and Fedx because in all cases that I have used them recently the goods have arrived in fine condition and on time. I know folks have had troubles with these carriers regarding claims and I my main intention was that members think the transaction through and cover themselves. I want to see every member having good luck with the shipping of their gear, just as I am sure you do. I just think that the big carriers should not be disregarded as a completely acceptable, cost effective, convenient method for shipping a good majority of their goods. There are others on this site who would like you to believe that they have the answer. I am not entirely conviced they are being honest. I am leaving the forumn things to others who have a cooler head and more knowledge than myself. Happy listening and good wishes.
A correction ~ the 3rd post above this "I'm actually suprised" was mis-posted in this thread. It belongs in the Hellohifi DHL and why? thread where I have reposted it. My apologies and I hope that you didn't think that one was for anyone involved in this thread. I'm gone.
Fed Ex dos not "cost more" than UPS.
Compare FED EX 1, 2, & 3 day to UPS 1, 2, & 3 day.
Compare Fed EX ground to UPS ground.
Same prices, more or less, and Fed Ex is often LESS.
If you ship fragile equipment that isn't packed well (and often even when it is), by a rough ground service, and it gets damaged, don't be surprised. We shipped 1,000+ hifi packages in 2000 and had *1* claim for damage. We do NOT use UPS and rarely use Fed Ex. Use DHL is possible, but with out an account and a volume deal, they are expensive (with it their next day rate is usually less than UPS 3 day).
Using ground? Double box & quadruple pack it, be prepared to wait, & wait, & wait, or do NOT use ground.
Fed Ex claims vs UPS claims--------------------
We had one ship claim in 2000, and it just happened to be with Fed Ex.
They are being very difficult with this rather small (under $300) claim.
They seem to have adopted the practices of RPS, a company they merged with (or bought).
RPS was incredibly terrible to deal with (on damage, claims, pick ups, billing, you name it).
Fed Ex seems to be doing the same thing, not as bad, but 80% of the way there. Too bad.....
I sent an amp COD with FedEx (2-day air) and they mailed the COD check backl to the Audio Store I originally bought it from! I suppose they got the address from the old tag (which the woman at FedEx said she would cover up with my tag). It makes me wonder why I spent so much time filling out all the paperwork. No one read it.
I have learned the same lesson the same hard way. I make it a part of the packing process to take a marker and mark through any previous labels - ESPECIALLY BAR CODES. All that paperwork that you fill out is used to create a label and barcode. When they (the handlers) are processing packages, they are ONLY concerned with labels/barcodes. Great experience to share!
"Electronics not insured, insured only for loss." The UPS outlet I use to ship the stuff I sell add this message on the shipping paper . Is this normal?
To Hellohifi..Will you please get the heck out of the forumn. No one is interested in hearing your crap about why it's so great to ship DHL and the troubles you have had. I am sure that fed x is being difficult with you for the same reason so many others have difficulty dealing with you. It's because you are one rude son-of-a=bitch! They ought to really ban the dealers from participating in the forumn and advertising their opinion or wares. The more I see this kind of junk on this site the less interested I am in coming here. Keep it up Audiogone and pretty soon you and Hellohif will be the only ones left.
To Nordostman.. "( +0, 0, -0)". "Will you please get" a shipping clue......................
When threads get started about shipping we always get ASKED to participate.
We know more about shipping hifi than ANY member on this site.
There is nothing that is "junk: about our ship posts, you just don't like us, and that's your hurt feelings problem (LOL!), but it has nothing to do with the content of our post.
Our shipping dept puts other dealers in ah, along with our ship record (99.9% positive).
We have 16 different shipping accts (you probably haven't even shipped 16 hifi items....).
Don't waste our time and you won't find us "difficult", as our 450 feedbacks clearly imply.
According to your feedback, you don't deal with ANYONE on this site: ( +0, 0, -0).,
so who exactly are you to be commenting on a thread about shipping hifi?
Did you ship over a 1,000 items last year? Did you even ship 1?
If YOU don't like our few posts, then vote them off, that's how it now works.
BTW, what exactly did you buy from us? Answer: The same as your rating; NOTHING.
Closing statement: If members double box & quadruple pack their ground
shipments you will rarely have trouble, but few go through this trouble.
I want to hear from dealers and their personal experience. As stated they have a lot of experiences to share with us. After a lot of problems with U.P.S. I even agree with Hello Hi Fi's shipping policies.

That said I think Hello Hi Fi is one of the most antaginistic posters on this site. They dont always start the fight but they have no problem draging it on. I think they are one of the most unprofessional hi fi companies I have ever seen.