Clarity Cap CMR Impressions
Wondering if you guys have tried using the new Duelund silver foil bypass cap .01uf in electronics. Right now I have them with some Jupiter foils caps on the output of my amp. Just added the Duelund so I can compare to the Jupiter alone. Thus far I am pretty impressed with the results. For the record I have not been a big fan of bypassing good film caps, but I have read many great things on this Duelund silver foil so I had to try it. Again, thus far these seem very special. |
I have use these new Cmr and Mundorf Silver oil much more so. the Silver oil will give you a bit more expansiveness around the instruments in Silver has something to do with it . That being said the new Cmr are very well balanced with possibly a bit better image depth. The big question is where you are using them in a circuit, and character of not only the driver, but sonic said of current system and what type of change you are trying to achieve. I have used a Duelund cap ,as well as JupiterCopper and a less expensive caps performed better, sometimes to rich can mask other frequencies in a circuit. a perfect example I wanted a very well balanced cap for midrange just by chance I had both a 2.2uf Mundorf Silver oil , and 5.6uf of the New Clarity Csa cap. to make a 8uf cap . I gave it 100 hours on first listen sounded pretty dawn good 200 hours is pretty close .the Mundorf takes better then 300 hours but at 200 hours I liked it better then the new Cmr. It has very good grip as well as Very good depth and air around the instruments . 10-12% Mundorf Silver oil . i only solder small cap about 1 inch from lead out on bigger cap.a engineer told me this a long time ago ,some put it way down 6 inches away . This is a excellent combination and does not break the bank and can be used in tight space. you can use the 250 v version of CSA. For Bass I used the 33uf CSA, replacing Solen it is 2.5 bigger around , and night and day better more defined Bass dynamics,speed,and image depth. I rate this caps actually a full 9.5 possibly slightly better. Tony at humble home Madehifi was being very conservative if you read through the lines he stated CSA made a more dramatic impact that being said only moved it .5 as well as Cmr. ? Sometimes it is best not to ruffle feathers for he is sent all caps he request for Free. I have been around this industry for over 30 years .the new CSA are a exception buy , for Bass done deal for topend, a .22 Mundorf Silver oil, for midrange 10% ,Silver oil. i have tried in electronics as well as 2 types of speakers. |
I’m sorry to tell you but you use mundorf capacitors and do not know how they are done. they are polypropylene silver in oil: If you do not believe me ask someone else, or better directily to mundorf. if you like mundorf sound you will continue to use them to have special effects to sound, but they are not natural. |
There are several factors, the bigger the UF- and higher voltage take longer In truth the 250v is pretty big for the vast majority of Loudspeakers The CMR- caps are s naturally bigger cap then the Csa- caps 300hours + for the Cmr- caps, 200 hours for the 250v Csa- caps, the 400v st least another 50. Referring yo the Mundorf Silver oil the are a paper coated with oil and the silver Particles impregnated on it ,not a paper in oil like Jensen. It is a great cap for the tweeter as well as mids. Your drivers will dictate Which have better characteristics . Mundorf Supreme as good maybe a bit more Depth then the Clarity CSA. That being said I took a .22uf Mundorf Silver oil for bypass caps And I though it was more s bit open the the Cmr on top, s bit more air around instruments A great combo.22 I like better then .1 ,these are big caps for a bypass caps though .I bought a bunch at dealers cost and making use of them. |
@audioman58 mundorf silver oil are not paper in oil but pp in oil. mundorf silver oil are very unnatural sound and resolution including soundstage. mundorf silver oil has a strange body that’s flown midbass all mundorf caps compared to claritycap have a strenge little compression that seems give you more spacial reproduction. all my impressions are in comparing mundorf silver oil to claritycap ESA I suggest to be careful with the shiny sounds and with special effects. IMHO |
Hello I have compared directly several, the Mundorf Silver oil is without question More resolved then the the Clarity CSa caps. Silver will always be a bit more spatial and open ,the oil on the paper gives it a bit more body. That being said the Sea, is a nice improvement over the standard ESA, cap. It is better balanced and better defined of the instrument edge.the same applies for the top Cmr,cap which is more refined but much bigger is space is an issue. Personally I think the new Csa-csps closer to a 10 rating on par with the Mundorf Supreme at a more reasonable cost. My friend owns the new ML- 13A masterpiece series stat and he replaced several Of the stock Solen and other poly caps .these new speakers not only are super fast and resolved but now the depth and micro detail are at least 15% better that is huge. These purple caps are a Great deal .One thing though they take s full 200 Hours to get every bit of refinement out of them vs the old ESA caps. |
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In virtue of what eric asserts, I took the clarity cap MR and CMR, and I re/started to make a serious break-in. This is why, before eric posted his impressions on claritycap CMR I kept the steareo off for work reasons for a long time. So I figured maybe my impressions were to a less-trained ear and to the capacitors with different hours of break-in. so i hope as soon as possible, if i’ll have enough time, to post my impressions (seriously than now :) ) i apologize for this ;) |
thes are my consoderarations: Time will give us other opinions of other people, anyway the CMR is a complete cap, has everything he needs to have. has less listen fatigue than MR, but first of all when you listen MR seems miss something in entire freq range. the MR has a kind of phase shift in comparison with CMR also CMR has more full bodied timbre than MR. |
Hi everyone, So I thought I would let this go, but I can’t baby! I am now about 2 weeks into this experiment, and I may actually prefer the MR caps to the CMR. While the CMR may appear at first install more lively, after break in, that mostly goes away and I’m left with far less forgiving caps than I was with the MR. So the question is, do I want caps to reveal every flaw, or do I want caps that will allow me to enjoy more music? This is my dilemma. The CMR is just much less forgiving of recording and source devices. The MR caps however have a consistent mellowness which doesn’t change from recording to recording. They may also seem less lively, at least compared to fresh CMR caps. Of course, I’ve spent a lot of time listening to speakers, and little changes. I’m not sure anyone but a teenage girl would be able to hear some of what I’m now aware of, but right now, I’m going to see if I can fully salvage my MR caps and go back. It may help you to understand that these speakers are FLAT past 20kHz. The common roll-off in the top octave many speakers have is absent. As a matter of synergy, the MR caps may just be better for speakers this flat, the CMR for the more common design choices / tweeters. Best, E |
Hi Audio, I think the bass i that sense is really nice. You get a lot of the "surface" sounds of drums, of hands or sticks hitting the skins, and more of the body of acoustic instruments as well like violin's, guitars, etc. I think the liveliness, open, easy breathing nature of the CMR contributes a great deal. Best, E |
Hi Audio, The only problem I have with the CMR is that lesser sources which have any sort of stridency to them now show more clearly depending on programming. With the Mytek Brooklyn, this is NEVER a problem. With the Oppo 103 sometimes. Depends on what I'm watching. To my ears the CMR is the cooler of the two. I have not tried the CMR in the woofer, plus since all those caps are shunts I tend to go cheap and stay with ESA caps. |
Hi audio4pass, I measured and simulated the effects of the bypass caps. There's no perceptible change in phase or amplitude. I can't explain the added ...not necessarily warmth, but liquidity, in the midrange by adding the 0.1uF cap. I agree, the Mundorf SIO is the coolest cap. I also think I like CMR better than the Mundorf SIO, but it remains cooler than the MR to my ears. I'll give you an example. I use a Mytek Brooklyn and Oppo 103 as my sources. With the MR they both sound pretty good. With the CMR at times, the Oppo sounds harder. This was never an issue with the MR. << shrug >> Clarity MR and CMR remain my favorite "affordable" boutique capacitor. I would not trade anything from the Mundorf lines for them. We'll just differ on where we put them in relationship. Best, E |
These are again my better impressions: Probably no one will interrupt, but I would like to tell you that bypassing a capacitor with a very small value could create a phase-shift that could cause a "fake" warm timbre; This is measured. My impression on CMR is that it is warmer, full bodied, with a lot of nuance and complete range frequency than MR. MR is a loudness cap with lesser dynamic range that gives you only the impression of warmth, but in long time listening is excactly the opposite. i suggest you to do long listening that’s a complete track with MR and than the same track with CMR. i don’t understand why you listen CMR cooler then MR, probably is your tweeter, i don’t know why. i have also Mundorf silver/oil and is the cooler of the three. probably i'm wrong, but i hope someone else who tried CMR respond. please let us know :) |
Hi everyone, So I’m pretty much done listening to the CMR’s, and ready to give a verdict in my system. Oddly, I find the case colors of the MR and CMR line exactly opposite of how they sound. the Red CMR sounds cool, while the blue MR sounds warm. The CMR’s start of WAY cooler sounding than the MR, but also less congested, more effortless. They break in over time and the coolness wears off, but they remain a little too cool for me, and a little disjoint. Maybe this is a matter of my crossover. I still have a more open, and cooler cap than before. So overall I think this is an improvement. My original impression that the CMR is a cool cap along the lines of the Mundorf Silver/Oil but without the juiciness/color added remains true for me. In any event, I did end up going with a very small Audyn TC bypass cap on the larger CMR cap, which brought back the warmth and also seems to do a good job of better connecting the midrange to the treble. I like both the MR and CMR more than I like the Mundorf Silver/Oil caps. The MR is naturally warmest, CMR almost as cool as the Mundorf S/O. I still recommend a bypass cap on larger CMR caps. Best, E |
It’s been a long while since I personally went through a break-in cycle with MR, but I recall a leading OEM evaluator report that 200 hours was necessary to get to the end of it. With a more revealing cap like CMR, nuances during break-in may be more easily detected and thus appear more dramatic, when in fact they may be subtler. Sorry if that seems mysterious, but just give it time and see. |
Eric, I think Audio4pass has it right about CMR. The new CMR and CSA ranges are calmer, in the sense of underlying quiet background, and more natural and unforced timbre and coherence across the entire FR. It takes around 200 hours for break-in. One of my OEMs who just completed his evaluation of CSA, reported that it is the first metalized polypropylene cap he has experienced with rock stable measured capacitance across the entire break-in cycle. That’s not to say that the sound doesn’t change through break-in, but rather that the copper ends exhibit a stable impedance that is unachievable with standard tin-zinc end sprays. Thanks for your impressions of the cap. Dave |
yes erik i suggest you to spent more time on listen the new timbre of CMR. you know well that everything is new need time to be metabolized before take a decision. take care to listen, because i don’t find CMR cooler then MR about my point of view CMR is more complete cap and smoother than MR that in comparison seems to lesser form the bass to the high the MR has a loudness presentation, the CMR has all the things at their real place. the dynamic of CMR is very very greater than MR sometime the CMR is warmer and with more body than MR the bass of MR are less dynamic and less articulate, so this sometime you could perceive more bass then CMR but is axactly inverse the bass of CMR go lower then MR the high of are smoother then MR but with more mid and body but i don’t want tell you anymore :) keep us updated |
I'm going to mention @dgarretson the US rep to see if he would like to chime in. So I finally had the health and energy to rebuild my crossovers. Hopefully this trend continues! :) Also I am relying a lot more on barrier strips, so future updates or comparisons won't require as many tools. As a reminder, the crossover I am using is a 3rd order high-pass filter going to a Mundorf AMT tweeter. My previous caps were clarity MR, the large one bypassed with Audyn TC. My comparisons are the BARE CMR vs. the MR + Audyn. As I mentioned, my health and energy are a factor, so please, no criticisms that I didn't go through a long QA eval process. Anyway, I find the CMR caps interesting indeed. They are cooler than the MR+Audyn TC caps for certain. From the contact/surface sounds of large drums, to cymbals and top-hat there is noticeably more information there. In this sense it is definitely moving towards the Mundorf Supreme line, without it's juiciness. I learned recently the MR caps are still around and honestly I can see why. The difference is bigger than merely more detail, or smoothness, it's a noticeable change in overall temperature. The full rebuild just happened recently, so I'll see if I adjust. At first listen, it's a mix of pros and cons which I'll have to spend some time getting used to. Best, E |
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This is slightly off topic, but I think it’s good for audiophiles to have an idea of what they are listening to. In addition to B&W and Magico, I have found another famous speaker brand that relies on Mundorf, YG. In this article: http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/yg_acoustics.htm It’s hard to see, but there’s a little link which has a set of slides to the crossover: http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/pics/yg_16.jpg Mundorf provides a very nice turn-key PCB assembly service for you. I’m not sure if they do the PCB layout as well, but High-end manufacturers get the entire crossover, including driver wiring, fully assembled from Mundorf, so it’s kind of irresistible for them to go with all Mundorf parts including coils and resistors. |
I'm about a week into burning in one side of my CMR caps. One interesting point, while music from my Mytec DAC sounds brighter and fuller, the Oppo Bluray player (103) is now sounding more and more harsh. It will be middle of next week before I get all the parts to re-make the filters. Yeah, I know others like to do things differently. That's fine, but I'm going to do things my way and I hope you appreciate the information as I post it. I'm not going to change my test techniques. I haven't the time / money / energy right now. So, please accept my comments in the context I offer them. Best, E |
ESR: At 4.7uF: ~ 0.38 Ohms between 1 to 10kHz for both MR and CMR. Maybe 0.01 Ohms lower for MR. audio4pass - Your typing sometimes comes off as very rude and demanding. I don't get paid by you, so I would appreciate it if you spoke to me a little more politely like I try to for others. are you sure ?, how many hours are burned the cmr So, part of the rudeness I sense from you is that you seem to not be reading along in the thread. If you had, you would see that when I typed this it was very early in the burn-in process. I'm not giving my final impressions, but putting in my impressions here as the burn-in continues. I look forward to sharing my experiences with you so long as we treat each other with respect and friendship. Best, E |
Actually Audyn has a true Copper Plus model that is even more refined I used them in my other preamp and speaker, they are slightly better across the board. I bought them from Nick at High Collective. 2nd best to only Duelund cast IMO Like a Jupiter Copper but not quite as rich ,a bit better balanced from 2 builds I have used them in. In your system it could go either way. Much less $$ though. I wish they made them bigger in size,too small for my new speakers. |
Oh, you are right. :) It must be huge and expensive. If you are looking in that price/size/performance bracket I would love for you to try Jupiter and tell us your own impressions. :) I wish I could afford an all Jupiter Cu film crossover, but I can't, so I have to rely on my own ears. Next week I'll try to bypass what I have and I'll see how good the CMR is to the MR. Best, E |
Actually, the Audyn TC goes up to 4.7uf. I have a pair I'm going to put in my Reference 3A Dulcet. I already have a 3.3uf TC Max in my Ref 3a Master Control and it sounds very good. The sound is very balanced from top to bottom so I'm not going to bypass. https://hfc-fs.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/audyn-true-copper-size-310816.pdf |
Hi Sherod! FYI, these two caps are not really equivalent. The Audyn is VERY physically large and very expensive for the uF. Also the largest Audyn TC cap is around 2.2uF. For these three reasons it’s much more useful as a bypass cap. In my case I’m using around 4.7uF and 12uF on my tweeter. So for instance, if I used 10x 1.2uF Audyn it would cost around $48 x 10 = $480, while Clarity CMR for 1 x 12uF is $130. So Audyn is about 3x more expensive, very much in the range of Jupiter Cu Foil and Duelund equivalents. As you may have read, I’ve tested MR + 0.1uF Audyn TC and it was a very good improvement with the larger cap only. Right now, the CMR is beating this combination, by a tiny bit. Next week or so I’ll be able to tell you if the CMR is worth bypassing as well. Best, E |
@timlub Thanks tim. Letting a thread get off topic is the death knell. The purpose gets lost and those who were interested no longer will be. If I am guilty of this too I apologize. Threads are free. If you have a cool idea for a topic start a new one. It is rude to the others who are paying attention, and the original poster to hijack it. If you think it's tangentially related, post a message saying: "Hey, I'm starting a new thread on active crossovers here, please chime in" Best, E |
Hi @audioman58, I've been reading this thread. I agree with you that an electronic crossover with room correction is often a revelation in system improvement. I think the reason that you aren't getting response is that this thread is specifically trying to get a consensus of this capacitor and the difference that it makes in building and modifying passive crossovers. I believe that you have valid ideas, but agree with an earlier post, that you should open another thread to address this idea.... @erik_squires Erik, I look forward to hearing how these caps compare after burn in. Tim |
