Every country in the world with a manufacturing base produces good products and bad products. I agree that using the term "Chi-fi" is a cheap shot against audio products manufactured in China. There is absolutely no excuse to use that term.
With parts sources located all over earth, and quite often unknown labor sources perhaps its time to be honest and state, "Made in multiple countries."
What qualifies a product as being made in any particular country? There is no standardized percentage of labor or parts a product has to contain to be considered made in any particular country. Marketing games being played here, not enough people aware of where products they're buying are actually from. I hear people talking about boycotting products from certain countries, well, better get rid of nearly every electronic device in your home, take off the clothes, run around naked. We're all consumers of products made all over this world, only ignorance makes one believe otherwise.
I had been a fan of the "Made in USA" banner, but honestly is "Made in USA" even a hallmark of quality anymore? We can clearly still make stupid good stuff (ARC, VAC) but it seems to me like Germany/Denmark/Switzerland/Japan/? is where the very top class of high end manufacturing is focused these days.
Chinese manufactured products can indeed be very high quality when very tightly controlled. The problem is that takes investment to do right. And in the meantime there’s still mountains of audio junk being produced there (I mean the really cheap crap, not anything with a recognizable brand name), including counterfeit knock-off cables and clone amps - hence the so-called derogatory terms like "Chi-fi". What are you supposed to say when some noob says they want to try tube amps, ignores all the decent vintage / kit / used suggestions and then follows up with "I just bought this" and an amazon or aliexpress link to a $400 POS. That is rightly called "Chi-fi" 😂
@nonoise + 10
@hilde45 swing and a miss with the USFL as it has been resurrected…..
Cheetos Lip Balm? Glad I missed that one.
It has nothing to do with being politically correct. Do we use this same slang term to identify audio products manufactured in any European country? How about any of the other Asian countries? Maybe the Chinese can refer to the audio equipment produced in my home state of Texas as Redneck-Fi?
@femoore12 Agreed and the fact is companies/people build products not countries.
No, not all countries have that much freedom. The fact is some governments are so totalitarian that the people and companies that exist there only do what they're allowed to do.
You are absolutely correct. I work overseas in some challenging areas and this is how some countries operate. Most of these governments aren’t telling these companies what to produce, but they are requiring foreign companies operating in their country to purchase materials from these national companies. Good or bad these products are required for doing business.
Redneck actually refers to miners at the turn of the century wearing a red handkerchief around their necks to signify the solidarity to the brotherhood of organizing and securing a safer work place for miners and there long term health and welfare. The spouses and dependent when accidents took life, limb, and always health early in life left THEM to fin for themselves. Life was short for everyone in mining.. Except..
BTW it's still the same crappy life and folks from there. They defend the heck out of the crappy conditions. The government could give a CRAP. They ain't digging coal. Other people are. Mining equipment sucks..
I have some decent tube gear. MC240, 275 and MC75s. Fisher 30A monoblocks. A Lance Cochrane scratch built amp. And a Mingda MC34-AB integrated tube amp. The quality, even when I had the original tubes in it was spectacular. I A/B'd it with some audiophile friends against the LC and the MC240, and it held its own. Point to point wiring underneath. Quality components. I'm sure there's crap out there. But not all of the Chinese made products are crap.
I try to always buy USA but I will be the first to admit that there are some pretty decent components made in China. Most of my gear is made in USA but the stuff that isn’t is quite good. Velodyne SMS 1, made in China ... has worked flawlessly since 2006. It’s on all day every day. In fact it’s the only device I don’t turn off.
OPPO Blu-ray player ... awesome machine
I demoed my last two speakers on Prima Luna amps They sounded good So no hate for QUALITY things made in China , I would just rather buy made in USA
Incorrect, My father-in-law was an organizer in the Arizona high desert mines. Just as I as was a Teamsters organizer on the west coast. True Union Men and Women know what the red handkerchief means. When you walk a picket to keep people from dying in mines. Speak right on up when you know what your talking about, when it comes to organized labor.. When your a Union organizer for 45 years and a member for 54 years. You study the actual history from the horses mouth, not what you googled or learned at a University..
MR. Smarty Pants.. :-) Learn if you will, BUT at least learn correctly..
Now tell me about Hookers.. :-) As a mechanic we share something in common WE, (us and them) work off our backs... YUP.. Think you know everything. Do ya?
I forgot, we both usually work for %ricks too. You know a Richard, A itty bitty one usually, with a fast car and the wife was usually my next sports project. Just for sport and spite usually. Funny part the wifes always feel the same way.. Shorty don't come up to Union standards, so to speak..
@oldhvymec I have deep respect for the labor movement. You are to be commended for all that you have accomplished, both as an organizer as well as a heavy mechanic. Just because something was coop’d for an absolutely wonderful cause doesn’t change the actual history. It was a derogatory term for anglos at a time when there was already a derogatory term for African Americans.
It’s funny you say Anglos. My Mother-in-law, (God rest her soul) use to use the term and ask me a blue eyed American Irish Sioux native IF it was OK to use the term? She and her Husband spoke Spanish in their home and I had just met their daughter. I meet them both and with a customary and respectful Spanish greeting, we just hit it off like I was a long lost Son. 1972. I kind of break the mole for any type of PC crap. Derogatory for me "WITH" disrespectful intent is the only important meaning. I have NEVER been disrespectful to any working, disable, or elderly person in my life NOR will I. But cross my picket..
My Mother-in-Law was an interpreter for the courts in CCC CA for 40 years.. My FIL Worked in the mines in Arizona for 10 years, went to Europe for the duration of the War, He joined, came back and Finished as an Operator at Dutch Shell.. He died at 96 years old.. Estrada and Encarnacion clan... Me I’m just a Mic Native.
The Irish were the first true crapped on people, they were a great example of what being free meant. You were still indentured to "THE MAN" call it what you want. The UNcivil war was fought by MEN as usual not politicians, congressmen, senators or their sons.. Irishmen. Lee said one thing. IF I would have had more Irish I would have won the War. Thank God he didn't, and I was born in Texas and raised in Alabama.. I moved to California for a reason. I had too. LOL I was 12.
@oldhvymec thanks for sharing. Chavez, Dr. King…both had something special…
I have a soft spot for the Teamsters…a much older late friend owned a very large trucking company. He considered Frank Fitzsimmons a dear friend and thought highly of him.
My family (dad, grand parents, uncles, etc.) were all miners in West Virginia. Myself and my siblings are the first to not be working in the mines in our family. Great grandfather started mining coal when he was 9 years old. All of them belonged to the unions. All of them lived in mining towns. I actually have some of the mining script that was used at the company stores. I grew up hearing stories of starting unions and the coaling mining wars that took place. No love of the Pinkertons in my family. Black lung is a real thing. I still have family there. I go back as often as I can.
If anyone is interested in the history of getting the unions started in the Appalachians and the start of the coal wars, watch a movie called “Matewan”. I took my dad to see it when it came out in 1987. Only time I ever saw him cry watching a film.
Unions are as much of America’s history (past, present and future) as apply pie. Heck they wrote it toto the bill of rights to be inalienable for ALL. Organizing is a basic human right when people are dying in nickel rich and dollar poor company owned mines. The only thing the company boys got was a pistol and all the cheap booze and bullets the company could offer. When they got hurt, Pinkerton or not, they got the boot.. At least with some safty in place and a lot better self regulation, it helps.
We have it good here. Think about other miners around the world.. China is pure hell I hear. I remember the guys in Brazil too, Chile? Big bore drillers got them out.
Hero’s, The fastest drillers in the world.. US drill teams. Incredible how fast they can bore a hole through rock, serious rock too to 2-300 feet.
I find it fascinating how the term, union, can elicit scorn and derision. One thing the plutocrats and captains of industry discovered is how they can unionize around common interests and solidify their stronghold on the world around them, and then see how it can disadvantage them if the lessors amongst them did the same.
The rich have think tanks, special interest groups, collectives, extensive media penetration and money bundling (PACS) to support pols who'll serve to ensure their interests are first and foremost in the policies they put forth.
They even have assembly lines of universities, law schools and special interest groups to ensure they only get the judges they want (all Supreme Court judges come from only 2 universities).
But when it comes to the common man, unions are demonized and the public conditioned to hate and excoriate them. Funny that. The rich know what works and damn if they'll let their lessors get a taste of it.
All the best,
@nonoise this supreme court is represented three law schools actually. (Harvard, Yale, Notre Dame). RBG was Columbia. All great law schools.
Darn, I thought it was just two. Yes, they are great law schools but the point was that there’s a curation process going on with members of the Supreme Court, particularly with the right. The Federalist Society accounts for about 90% of all judges appointed by just Rump. 5 of the 6 conservatives on the SC are Federalist Society judges, and the Federalist Society only comprise about 70K lawyers and judges in this country of over 1.33 Million lawyers and 1,440 judges. That’s a tiny amount that gets an overtly oversized share of the appointments.
This "union" is what one journalist called the A**hole Factory. Tons of dark money are behind the choosing and curation of these jurists as they make they way towards the bench. Here’s a great piece by Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse on the matter.
If the common workers had any such powers and abilities to have such a "union" at their disposal, imagine the gains they could achieve.
All the best,
....remember a screed awhile back that 'Made in the US' only had to refer to the cardboard box; the source of the item within carried the 'Made in X" in the manual and on the actual item itself with the mfr. label.....
@sns just tree-topped the quandary about being nationalistic about an items' sources, in part or total. Park that Honda, Rhonda, Anchor that Audi, Arnie. Even your GM/GMC/FoMoCo/Chrysler/etc. has parts from Elsewhere, Earth in there, somewhere.....if not all of it...
Best label left the planet on the roadster:
Made on Planet Earth by Humans
Let me know when that comes under suspicion...
@femoore12 Agreed and the fact is companies/people build products not countries.
China is a communist country where "the people" (government) seized control of the mode of production. In today's China only about 30% of industry is owned by the government. This includes the Melody/Spark plant where gear like Cayin is made. As it is owned by the Chinese government, I feel that in this case we can say the country/government of China is the manufacturer, not "people" or "companies". It is no secret that slave/child/forced labor is rife in China today along with a vast system of oppression for millions of people. Buying from Chinese government owned companies directly supports this oppression.
Just recently the US Congress passed the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act by with only a few votes (!) in opposition. It is clear that both Republicans and Democrats are united in acting against the increasing use of slave labor in China. It is likely that as more information is available, more sanctions will be enacted, possibly including against Chinese government owned electronic firms such as those within the CATIC group that manufactures items for Prima Luna along with many other companies that have not been so forthright about their sources.
Will be interesting to watch how this will play out. So far as I know, this is never discussed in the audio press.
rich american audiophile 1: "chi fi" is offensive. stop saying it. fascist
rich american audiophile 2: but it's not offensive. and it's my right to. libtard
audio manufacturer in mainland china: while you guys were fighting your culture war i just sold half a million class d desktop amplifiers to your neighbors for $100 apiece. i'm glad you're having fun though
W Jennings provides a topical example of something that is prevalent in many aspects of decision making - summed up succinctly in what is broadly known as signalling theory.
All life forms rely on fairly rudimentary signals to make surprisingly important decisions. Labels (such as Chi-fi) are just one form of signal.
A signal often goes to the reputation as to quality (however defined - broadly!), as Jennings talks about.. Signals can be reliable or unreliable, as with any rules of thumb, so it is wise to often do a bit of research once the threshold signals are satisfied. In relationships, this may be known as courting.
For those who are interested in signalling theory, Wiki provides a good read.
I have no wish to comment here on the many ethical and moral issues people may associate with China on whatever basis they choose to do so.
Because the CCP government that oversees and control the economy operates concentration and forced labor camps for its Uighur minority, makes disappear 1000’s of Hong Kong pro-democracy demonstrators, outlaws the freedom of religion, press and assembly, etc, etc.......It’s actually remarkable how Nonoise could attempt to somehow contort well reported truths and make it about the " right wing are made up of con men, shysters, shillers and grifters" .....sheesh......uncanny how his contributions are always so politically and predictably one-sided (yeah, no con men whatsoever on the Left......lol)......Back to the question, people also refused to buy German (what they might have called Kraut) products in the 30’s and 40’s because they were aware that they were also supporting the German government by doing so. I try not to use lazy terms like "Chi-Fi" but I certainly won’t be losing sleep over it if someone does. For me, I draw the line at the CCP oversight of slave labor camps, and see nothing "Self-Righteous" about others who also note this fundamental human rights distinction when buying or describing products. .
I'm just speculating and I could be wildly wrong, but perhaps it was because certain folk here couldn't help themselves making unwarranted and provocative comments designed to incite partisan squabbles?
I agree with you. A few short years ago I probably may not have. As I write this I am awaiting delivery of a Topping DAC. It was a toss-up between that and a Gustard.
Both brands (to the best of my understanding) are pretty much of Chinese design and build. They go way above what may be politely described as "acceptable" quality on many levels that are important to me.
"The rich have think tanks, special interest groups, collectives, extensive media penetration and money bundling (PACS) to support pols who'll serve to ensure their interests are first and foremost in the policies they put forth.
They even have assembly lines of universities, law schools and special interest groups to ensure they only get the judges they want (all Supreme Court judges come from only 2 universities). "
YEAH, they are called the Demon-cratic party lmao...wake up!
American corporations and the western banking elite are conjoined triplets with the Chinese Government. Any criticism of the Communist regime is doubly applicable to the people that funded the whole shebang.
Slave Labor is the most efficient way to run a fascist corporation.... Birds of a feather flock together.
To add to the conversation, now that China has undercut manufacturing all over the world by flooding foreign markets with super cheap low quality products, it is making the pivot to up it’s export quality.
If you read papers published by the Communist regime think tanks from 20 years ago, this was always their plan. China is now ready to introduce Chinese brands that will compete with every major player on the world market.
Hi-Fi is just one part of market pivot.
China Smina, who cares. I don’t. I use every part of their plan for my advantage not theirs. I didn’t learn how to speak Mandarin, but I do pretty good with Spanish. I’m working on my French. What is that telling you? I’m not worried about any global takeover from China. Good Lord. They and the world are 3 weeks away from starvation. Wake UP..
I say build all that they can just like the former USSR. FORMER being the operative word. The USSR ran out of food remember. That caused the wall to come down. No One did it. They managed all on their own. BTW, Russia has great surplus audio caps, dirt cheap. I use the HECK out of Russian stuff. They don't use me..
China is closer than Russia ever was. 5 times the population. When they drop and flop about food shortages like they did when their government took over food production. 100,000,000 died before the world stepped in and feed a starving population. It’s like history never happen AGAIN. The people are wonderful, the corruption is in the Triad. Eastern, Slavic, and European power from way WAY back. The real story. BUT a different story.
How many peacekeepers did it take to keep the Afghanistan, Iran crap in check. 30-40,000. with support.
India, and Turkey keep the whole region in check. Not to mention everything West of Moscow. You think Western Europe is goona’ just watch, along with Scandinavia? Folks act like China is some special state of the art emerging country. It’s not.. The America’s feed the world. plane and simple. From the top of Canada to the bottom of Brazil. When was the last time you ate reindeer in the US? They ate Brazilian, Chilean, or US beef in Moscow last night..
Like I said, 3 week the world would be on it’s knees, 6 weeks, gone..
The stink would last for 20 years, dogs, birds and rats. Would be the worlds number one problem. Then the diseases set in and the world gets sick.
3 weeks away. Think Cave man for 3 months. Come out to a whole new smaller world that really really stinks. Like Noah stepping off the Boat so to speak.
Chicken Licken, the sky is not falling in the Americas, it’s gonna fall where the people aren’t looking UP.
This is when I say "Man does not live by bread alone, BUT every word that comes from the mouth of God".
You better keep an eye on the Canadians.. That’s the sleeper. :-) LOL, Ya never Know.. Think Arora..