Very interesting, I suppose they hold up well? I've seen no complaints about, quality. The 100 WPC is more than enough.
I've haven't been a big fan of valves doing bass duty in a long time. Mids and highs, perfect..
I use planar based speakers, pretty easy to drive..
Thanks for the input. VTLs or This Guy, Kind of a toss up for me..
Have you heard VTLs, with KT90s, and EL34? Just wondering if you heard both, Cary and VTL? I've never heard a Cary. I want the tube sound but the HF of SS. These are at 23k that's really good.. I love RCA (V) 6L6 tubes, just one of my favorite valves of all time..These V12s can run them, along with KT66, KT77, KT88, 90s, El34 even 6V6, that is a mid gain tube, sure sound good, though..
You know there is a a lot of talk on bias, cool leans out the sound thin, quack quack , to hot shortens tube life and runs hot . I've found that there is a sweet spot for biasing valves. It actually SOUNDS better. Again not just a little. I use these from 300hz UP, no bass duty at all.
A Mac TEC, usually doesn't bias stuff after it's set up. Set it and forget it, its one of the good things about a Mac, BUT I have a 240 you can. AB (push pull amps) not so critical, Class A, it makes a BIG difference, AB too, if you really listen, just not as dramatic.....
So The R has the better transformer and the 12XXX.
What about the monoblocks? same. Ver 1.2.3 ? Kinda rare for sure.
You have bias the tubes differently if you change the number in each channel , Cary was great help in directing me . Good luck .
Do you remember HOW? Cary isn't answering the phone today, go figure.
LOL shoulda' known..
I just got it about an hour ago. I need the bios meter. That is a mono 1/4 jack? I guess.. I haven't hooked it up yet. Guy was a real nice, hand delivered it and gave me a two week "take it back no questions asked" deal. Brand new set of 12 matched Rubies, and one used set. A few signals to pick from..
IT IS BEAUTIFUL!!! Man oh man, on tiny little ding, I had to really look to see it. and a factory, boo boo behind the Power transformer, little squigle in the paint. Looks like a factory touch up. Good fix who ever did it..
I sold him a Russco broadcast TT, I have 6 or 8 Russco, Two QRKs. He's a Garrard guy, so he jumped on the ol Russco. Side buy side Russco, and a Garrard. Garrard looks little, compared to the Russco
Same design. Guy was looking for one for a while, I had 8. Go figure
I'm a collector of stuff, what can I say.. Garrard Killer, Russco
I love those things washing machine motors fractional HP. Oilers, adj end play on the motor and TT 3/4" spindle, 8-10 lb platter.. 24/7 for 30 years, oil it service it, every 30 days..
Now to bios this puppy, and dig out two quad sets of the Mullards, they were a good EL34 valve.. Came out of my Marantz # 9 or 7s can't remember.. 25 years ago. NOS though..
So you pull the tubes leave 2, 4, or 6 per side. then rebios and run on 4, 8 or 12 valves, total. Does something else have to happen, other than that?
I really want to tinker, I really do!!!
I've got a set of cables cooking as I type.
Since you are interested in using the amp with planar, you might be interested to know that for me, the V 12 R ran out of juice with the Magnepan when played above 80-85 db. The amp worked well with the other speakers I had, though.
You know, neo 8s Monsoons work very well with, Macs, and VTLs. I run, 3, 4, and 6. RM30, RMx and my DIY use 4. MC240 with good parts, makes them sing. That's about 55 watt per rail. Stock 43 or 5 watts per. They seem to like AB better than single ended. The 300b was an eye opener though..
A friend brought over a 300b 17.5 wpc. I was stunned at how well they sounded, and no settle time. I listened to that combo for two weeks. Just killer. 17.5 watts, 6 planar...and one true ribbon tweeter per side. Island music, salsa, slow jazz, everything but Yoko Ono sounded great. No Yoko Ono. LOL
Now back to the V12 Jaguar Red beast.
As I recall. 35ma and 210ma per channel was about right, sounded good too.
So is there a place to check for the 35ma (per valve?) or at the pin # whatever. I can see how to get the 210 per rail, but kinda lost me with the 35ma, Just a reference to check but not adjust? Wish they had a good manual.
Don’t be so quick to yank/replace/chuck those Ruby’s for others, some were the actual Shuguang EL34-BSTR tube version which sounded really good in that amp.
I'm to much of a miser (sp) to yank and dump..When it comes to valve, I've found some real gems, others just would not try. I will.. Gotta listen.
I read the same thing. With a coupling cap upgrade, the stock tubes sound really good. I'll give them a LONG listen before I do anything.
I need to let everything settled in first, little at a time..Set the bios get the amp on a dampened, surface, cable or two..PC. Guy brought me a PC with Mcintosh written on it. # 8 or 10 wire. Never seen a Mac cord like that..Big and Green. The Hulk.. Yea those Mullard are probably worth more than the amp. EL34 guys are EL34 guys no doubt, I never have been. If it sounds better then things may change.. Even old guys like change every now and then...LOL
Hay if you could explain the 35ma per tube? How to get it. Fronts or rear I got. 4 8 or 12 valves, I got, from 285-300 down to 210-240ma, I got, but the 35ma per tube, I DON'T GOT.. LOL
Thanks for you patience...
It's just 210 div by 6, per "rail" as you noted. If you are handy, pull lower cover, look and see if it has those four of the thin silver'ish Audio 1 coupling caps.
I guess I'm thick, so if I have two valves per rail then bios at 70ma
and 4 at 140? Am I following you?
I'll pull the cover. Handy? LOL You mean an I Arnold with 20" arm? hee hee that is a heavy amp, mercy.
Hexfreds, like a schottky. I think I know what your talking about, at least what they look like. Is it for a power supply upgrade? fast acting quick recovery diode. I think this unit has it, but that would be strange that the silver fish audio 1 would still be there. I took a few pics, the audio 1 are a good cap. I call it "The Marantz sound", they were famous for those things..
Sound good actually, not sloppy, but VERY tubie..
So which caps did you use in your V12?
Need someone that has had it done AND knows what it looked like before and after, I'll find a pic or two.. Keep lookin' someones bound to chime in..
There is a guy named Mike Samra, one smart cookie, red sock, green sock guy. Look up the name, big Mac guy..He might know about it and will talk your ear off once you get hold of him..Walk you right through it..
I'll see if I can find him..
bradluke0154 posts03-31-2020 6:56pmIts 35 ma per tube . 2 tubes per side = 70 ma. 4 tubes per side =140ma . 6 tubes per side = 210 ma . The manual is wrong , if you go to 275 ma with 6 tubes per side you will pop the fuse.
No fuse pops so far...But it sure sound good at 240ma total on the bias, I mean, there is quit a difference in SQ. I went as high as 260 from 240 with no SQ change, then backed off until it sounded REALLY good, not pretty good..REALLY GOOD. I'll rebias in a few days to 35 per an see if the SQ is as good...Could be a settling thing, my ears, or remember to take the cotton out of my ears this time...DUNO.. ;-)
I thought I was having a stroke... kept reading the same thing.. 210 210 210 total LOL.
So it's 35ma x every valve in pairs, per side. Wow hee hee. People say I ask too many questions.. Maybe.. but that's the old mechanic in me..I try to stay out of trouble, not GET OUT OF TROUBLE.
1. turn the unit OFF
2. turn both bias adj screws counterclockwise.
3. install or remove tubes in pairs per side, starting front to rear or rear to front. Not every other one, BUT in pairs per side in matched positions on the other side.
4. Hook up the bias meter, analog or digital..Digital is better (self diag and calibration)
5. With speakers hooked up (or dummy load), POWER UP turn the volume down on the preamp, and let the amp(s) warm up.
6. Adj the bias per rail @ 35ma for every valve in pairs. 70 (2),140 (4), 210 (6) are the prefered bias numbers, by turning the adj screw clockwise SLOWLY. recheck, recheck, recheck then recheck.
do the same on the OTHER rail. New valves, recheck in 6-10 hours rebias, as needed.
7. Don't worry be HAPPY. (You know like the song.. LOL) and turn the music...UP....:-} < happy Galic face, start doing the Irish Jig...
I'm so happy....
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you very much...
NOW, next problem... can you help me turn lead into GOLD...???
One thing I forgot to mention... This amp and neo 8 planars, no running out of gas, I've yet to crank it, BUT, at 49% volume, on the led, the Rabbit, the dog, and the hummingbirds start looking for shelter. No power issues, no distortion issues (the rabbit can't take it...) :-)
decooney226 posts03-31-2020 12:30amIt's just 210 div by 6, per "rail" as you noted. If you are handy, pull lower cover, look and see if it has those four of the thin silver'ish Audio 1 coupling caps.
Yes it does, took pictures. Few other spendey little caps too. I saw the sokeys (sp) fast recover. Clean as could be..looks easy to work on.
Has a logic board in the back, front? Everything is point to point.
Wire to the speaker terminals was the only thing I didn't like.
I don't think it was #20, very small. that's gotta go. I have some really good pure silver # 12, 16, 18 wire. 16 will work, twice as big as what's in there..There was a bit of resin, around, alcohol will take care of it..
bradluke0155 posts04-01-2020 10:22amPlease do yourself a favor , don't start screwing around inside the amp . Play with the 4 or 8 ohm taps for the speakers , play with the bias , roll the tubes , use 2 , 4 or 6 per channel and try different power cords . But please don't put silver wire in there , if you must mess around use copper and make sure the wire you put in is both facing the same way . Wire in different directions sound different . Don't make me come over there with a baseball bat …..lol .
Hee Hee, I won't tear it up..I'm just havin' a ball though. I got it sounding pretty darn good. Yea the Ruby out. I had 4 Volvo valves from Marantz # 9 I had way back, NOS never used.. I couldn't believe the change there.
BIG difference. I went to Teleies 12ax7, from all the 12BZ7s, man that is a raw tube for sure, lot of gain but tough on the ears.. If the guy was happy with that sound, he's like most folks I run into, too much bass in there life...protect those ears.... really.. Nice guy though..
I have a great set of 6550 too. Tung Sols, have to find um..great mids those valves, rock and roll delight..
Facing the same way, you crack me up.. If I do anything I'll probably do my treatment to the wire and give it a direction same as it comes off the spool...3 days in the freezer and 4-5 days on a cooker..This is pretty easy to work on.. No kidding not my first amp tinker fest..I've done up a few through the years..
Copper, why copper? I've used pure silver not clad, had some very good results from stock copper, to larger wire, from the speaker terminals back to the first solder joint. Just did up a pair of NC500.. Quit a sonic nugget..I did use clad there, add a little sparkle..
I'm telling you, the wire is maybe a # 20.. look, it's
spooky. Looks like the inside of a new Mcintosh.
Thanks though.. got any pointer I'm ALL ears Caps YOU prefer?
Did not realize the true benefit of front' end EL84 or 12BZ7/6922 vintage tube changes until after swapping out the little silverfish Audio1s.
So what's the cat's meow? I'd love give it a go. I'll be listening for 2-3 weeks then look into it. Give the cable a chance to settle and everything..
So what's the name brand you used?
Honestly though.. It does sound pretty good.. The planars are just loving them, tons of power. Even on 4 valve. pretty hefty..No bass duty, just monitor section...
I want to thank everyone, for helping, lot of fun...listen to music in the middle of the day...retirement is just wonderful..
Thanks, yea I knew there is a timing issue. Ones faster so to speak.
I've used, copper, copper/silver clad, silver, and alu/copper clad. I've brightened a few and toned down a few too. I've used wire and speaker terminals (copper, copper/nickel, silver) to tune a few.
Why is silver over copper, as apposed to pure silver or copper or anything else I can find, BRIGHT.. Someone said it was the dielectric cover.. Yet, I've ran bare wire no insulation, and the rule still applies.
alu is the dullest. (mechanic terms) then copper, then silver then copper/silver clad. I made up a silver/copper weave, sounds better than the Mcintosh he brought. The hulk cable..
I can take a #16 of copper a #16 of silver, mechanically join the two and no BRIGHTness. But a fullness, everything is fattin' up, thicker more of it... Clad, NO.. Just bright.. Just wondering.. Just noticed...
I did have Mundorf .22uf 1000v Supreme Silver gold oils. for the audio 1 cap swap, I also had .22uf 1400v Supreme aluminum caps.
I really like what I'm hearing.. Really. I found a stash of 12ax7s Volvo, Telefunken, RCA, and Tung Sol. EVERY pair was better than the stock
12BZ7s, man that is a real raw tube..
Hee hee need super duper caps to make the crap tubes to sound OK.
BUY good Valves..I have some Russian and Chinese tubes 12AX7 all better than that 12BZ7.. Just not the gain.. 12az7 will do it has the gain and a lot better valve, Not a TV tube.. LOL
What brand of caps.. Cardas Silvers, TRT teflons. I have K75, K45, K42 and K40 xxxx russian PIO / hybrid..and the Mundorfs.
thanks everyone, just havin' a good ol time..
Hee Hee. It's running right now, with Telefunken, smooth grays, I pulled a pair of black plates, TOO mellow. I'm real close on the sound. The Amprex have a bit more detail, I was surprised. The Two combos that are working VERY well is eL KT90s x 4,8,or12 and Sylvania (little bright) 12ax7a or the Amprex (very detailed, very quiet valve) 12ax7.
The second was (finally) with the Rubys or the Volvos, GE Tung Sol (vintage) 12ax7 and GE greens 12az7a. The Rubys and the GE greens, probably the best so far, both single ended or UL, very nice.. With the planars, super fast, super SUPER detailed, MID are as plump as a dumplin'. Detail is not quite as edgy at the KT90s, Just sounds right...Man oh Man...Stanly Clark, Tony Williams, Herbie Hancock, Jeff Beck, Miles Davis, can't turn the sucker off... Johnny Cash is in the room with that Martin...and Yoko Ono is nowhere to be found.. Thank God...LOL
I made up a killer PC. Copper and Silver weave. 3 # 10 silvers and 1 # 10 copper. I did a 4 strand weave, with pure copper ends.. That was little nugget. Need to cook that cable a bit..I think it will shave a little on the edgy KT 90s.. little breakin on the PC. Fixed my Mac 275 GG. (the cable drop blunder). So far..things are lookin up....
Take back the Mac fix. NOISY... uhhhh Thought I had it with just a bad valve... Silly me...Right side works but noisy..Left perfect..Amp graveyard in the sound room.... LOL, maybe..
I don't even run the 12BZ7s, maybe some like um, sure a lot better tube to choose from, I have some chinese 12ax7 that blow the doors off them
less than 5 bucks a valve...same cheap valve Mac uses in their new stuff.
I just received a 12 pack of 6V6s and 2 8 packs of 6L6 under 200 for the whole lot.
Installed the little 6V6s, hour or so of playing... Just wonderful, transformer is running cool a could be. Whole unit dropped 30 degrees.
looks like there is a good summertime combo after all. Although the 4 Volvo el34s were pretty impressive. A dozen ways to go...Seems like there all pretty good..
Where did they go? They haven't gone anywhere yet. That is what I have in hand. The Supreme Silvers oils are a great sounding cap with 6550 KT88 and 90. I'm not an el34 guy. Though I'm trying.. LOL Silverfish reminds me of Marantz. 7C 7T 33, 3300. They used those things.
Fuller sound? It's plump as a dumplin' Now.. I have two ways to go, NOW El34s, Ampex 12AX7, RCAs EL84. Wonderful mids, BUT 300-700 hz is where this amp is kinda lacking 700 up is great till about 11-2 khz then kind of loses it's magic again I rolled KT88, GE 12AZ7, and the RCA. HUGE difference in the low mids and the HF is a lot better.
So Sinatra, Denno, and Island music, salsa get the EL34 combo.
Herbie Hancock, Stanley Clark, Tony Williams, (and the grandkids music, RAP) get the KT88 combo..That why there is more than one system here...
I'm thinking I can keep the KT88s and go with the oils, which I know works well. Still be able to run el34 and get close to what I have now. (maybe a tad better)
I know these oils work real well with 6l6s which a just a game changer for a LOT of the older Country Western, and for sure any of the early rock and roll stuff. The reverb era!!!! AND that gives me a 3rd option.
I would have had to used a MC240 and a MC275 to listen to all the different sound. Now one amp, re voice in less than 10 min, three way to go, no cable swaps.. I'm liking it. I really like his amp...So use to Mcintosh.
Now the real test. My MC240, that is ALL trick out, well see whos the master of the mighty 6L6 valve. This 240 is very special..
Yet to it bested., with 6L6s. Maybe... If this Cary can do it. I'll be looking for a second one..and thin the herd a bit..
I put Mcap Supreme Silver/Gold (non oil) I had both. I thought it was Supreme Alu.. I had to leave the room for about 45 min. Making some pretty wonkie noises. settled in a bit, after 6 hours of playing, sound almost SS like. Razor sharp. KT88s. I've never seen an amp that was so easy to work on, cap swap, interior cleaning, tube pin tighten, put back together, wax it, retube and bias in under 2 hours.
The sonic change is not subtle at all.. It went from tubie to tight. I bet the el34s sound great. If they could just keep the highs like kt88 or 90s and the mids like the el34s and the low mids like kt88 or 6550. Maybe a KT66/6L6 haven't tried it yet...
Also, the 3A Filament Fuse should be a 4A slow blow. Cary printed the wrong value on the back of the unit. In the schematic for the V12R is confirms it should be a 4A slow blow.
The fuse is a 4 amp SB, now, had a 5 amp in it, I pulled all the fuses and replaced them. I've bias with a mono 1/4" male splitter with 2 RCAs hook one lead to the outside RCA and the other to the inside via a probe. That's when I learned 210ma sounds ok but 230-240 at lower volume is just as sweet as they come. I'm really liking 6L6 cheapo valves Solvex. Only valve that going from single to UL sounds better. I like the sound better for certain music, especially old country western, or big band stuff. Haven't heard anything that sounds bad other than a bad recording, got a few of those..
At 100.00 + an hour at Cary, I can do a little work myself.. Suppose to be almost bulletproof, amp, I need it..
I'd like to see the upgrades too, there are some clusters of diodes two sets of three that look to be hexfred, at least when I looked them up.
Is it a power supply upgrade? I had Samra do a C20 with Schottkys, PIOs, and a few Teflons. Quietest point to point, I've ever had.. and the most musical. Just no remote... I like a remote.
With what I'm doing and listening too, the Stock Ruby sound a lot better than before, 12bz7 and EH EL84 with the old Audio 1 didn't work.
With a12ax7 or 12az7, Mullard el84, El34s or KT88 yes. NOW ..after the cap change it's really gone up a notch on SQ, they were very sonicly gifted before, now. Even easier to revoice and no signal tubes, the 12at or az work with all the power valves...Using 6l6s right now, not sure on that one, need 8 more valves, to get a good feel. 6V6s are on the way, surplus sovex, NOS...
I have some RCA BP, but I hate to use top notch, if so so will do. This machine really has the ability to use ok tubes and make them sound really good...Great engineering. Wonder what the mono blocks are like?
These are plenty powerful. BUT I'm use to 300+ with the VTLs. Never used it but they drove everything I use very well..
I did a PC swap a few days back... 3 copper/silver mill speck teflon poly vinyl cover #10s and 1 # 10 ms copper, did a weave. Worked very well
sounds just as good, as MITs that are broke in just off the bench... Light NOT FLEXIBLE.. I like it...
Is there a version before I and R, and still a V12? I know where there is a 6922 version (thought it was the I), I guess it's an "I". Is there something before that? Early or late I. I read the gain is different. the transformers are better and a sokey (sp) in the "R" and the signal tube upgrade 6922 to 12xxx series.
Just wondering.. There is a pair of monos for 5000.00 in the Ukraine.
Nice but too much. I'd love another stereo V12R.at a good price. I'll keep my eye out... Tinkerfest...
6L6 cheapo EH valves, broke in a bit and sound really good now...
4 so so valves, sound great, Last 6L6, unit that sounded this good was a fresh MC240 with really good caps and PS upgrade. Couldn't get cheap valves to sound as good though. The Mac liked quality, well matched valves...
This amp, not nearly as picky. 6V6 next on the agenda.
What's the monoblock version like? Anyone have or had a pair?
Not a lot of those floating around.
A second I or R would be a nice A/B after component swaps...and
a great addition to another house system.
Patience..ya never know.. Any V12s collecting dust out there?...
The el34 run the coolest, the KT88s run hot for sure. I'm thinking 4 EL34 during the summer days, (ran cool actually) and I can add a quad or two for the evening hours, if the occasion should arise...
Yes wonderful heaters in the winter months, for sure.
Now for a summer special. Someone's on the fence with an I or R
just waiting to find a new home....Probably in someone's closet as I type...
I'm patient... usually..
johnss352 posts04-13-2020 10:42amaren't you exceeding max plate voltage running 6V6s in the V-12?seem to recall max plate voltage of 285tks
Not sure, to tell the truth. I can tell you this, they sound pretty darn good.
No failures, no red plating, no fuse blowing. Run cool as a be. AND a cool looking valve too. Dropped 30 degrees from using KT88, 20 from EL34 and 6L6. I ran them 24 hours checked the bias via led twice, held the bias. I left them in for over 48 hours.. never an issue.. Sound was little thin, low mids and HF not quite as controlled. The real pleaser was the 6L6s, cheapo valves maybe 100.00 or so..Under 200.00 for both sets one of 12 6V6s and 16 6L6s.
I have two more caps swaps in mind, The supreme EVO silver/gold and supreme EVO silver/gold oils. Never used them, I want to try them. Other than that. One neat amp.. Very well made
I'm looking at a swap with a guy, he's got Cary (?) AES Six Pacs
setting in a box not using them..
I have a MC240 in so so shape. I know what I paid for mine.
I still have two more 240s in better shape. Why Not?
Wonder how the V12 and Six Pacs compare. Anyone?
decooney264 posts04-21-2020 7:58amThe Hexfreds just added a little faster/tighter bass in my former V12R. I felt having the right coupling caps and interconnects was most rewarding. Overall, the stock EL34 Ruby (Shuguang made EL34BSTR) tubes were great.
The stock valves are good, really good, I agree. The 18.00 dollar upgrade was just too hard to pass up..LOL
I have a working schematic now. Cary was actually rude. Not the Cary of old, or what others said about them...I'm convinced at this point they do not have a schematic. Probably a handwritten scribble on a paper grocery bag.
I found a lot of this type of stuff in overseas, based companies. Thank goodness it's just a valve amp, not something complicated. I don't know maybe there is some secrete recipe in the way they wind their transformers. I don't think so though..I use to wind transformers in HS for god sakes.
HiPerFreds are on the way. My time is limited now, I can only tolerate this amp in the spring, winter, and fall, I can see summer is out, unless we have a lot of cool nights..So I'll do my little UGs and look forward to a few cool nights and the upcoming fall.
My class Ds are already giving me the "what did I do wrong look".. They will be back in service, in the next day or two..Nice and cool....
I just received Solen 700 v 2. uf silver polyprops in the mail for the V12.
Signal coupling caps. They are some good caps,
The new upgraded PS with the Superfred. I used turret board and alu angle for the mount.. ;-)
The Silver/gold supremes went from coupling to decoupling and EVO supremes silver/gold went into the coupling cap position, for the power valves.
Every change has made a difference. I'm breaking in the EVOs now.
they are still a little wonky. A lot of difference from the ones that were broke in...Couple weeks at least, 100-150 hours start sounding really good.
What a fun little project, easy to work on.. Sound is truly reference quality and just getting better..
The only thing I haven't done that I think would make a big difference is the wire in the signal and power tube side. Cary now does the upgrade with Kimber wire.. I have some pure silver #20 SC PTFE, I know is better wire..
This is when amps go from 3-5000.00 to 5-10,000.00 in SQ. 400.00 worth of parts, total. This amp is burned into my head, I think I could work on it blindfolded.
I've also started rerouting wire, what a rats nest.. looks better.. Sloppy
sloppy work... I guess they are all this way.. Sure sound good.
Now looks better under the hood too. ;-)
Check this out, I swapped out the 2.uf 400v signal caps (4) with
Solen 2.uf 700v silver poly props.
I let them break in for 20 hours or so.. I found a bad tweeter, behind the swap. I actually had a burn spot in AC FST ribbon. Couldn't hear it before. Sure could with the signal cap swap..
They are like razors.. Sharp, clean, brilliant, these are word that describe
the poly props with silver.
This amp is voice with EH EL34s the least expensive I could get. They just sound wonderful. I started with no changes. the EH valve was a little hard on the ears. Rubies had them hands down. Now.. They sound like the Rubies did, and the Rubies, sound like my Volvos did. I haven't tried the Volvos again.. WHY? It sound so good...
Almost done with this V12, one LED need repair. Filter caps, and two bypass caps.. 560 uf x 400v and the bypass are .22uf 600v. All new.
What an enjoyable project, and an even better outcome.
It's burn into my head now.. ask away.. Signal path SC silver
looms or straight wire point to point on turret boards..
Sure look nice on turrets, next on the list...