A proper alignment required for all cartridges and tonearms, this fact is not the reason to buy an inferior MC or MM with Conical or Elliptical profiles with very short life span, just because some think that they are easier in adjustment/alignment. Even if the cost for such cartridge is cheaper the re-tip will cost extra and it an elliptical tip can't be used for longed than 600hrs max.
It is very easy to setup a cartridge with advanced profile if a tonearm is not junk, the alignment process is the same as with elliptical. Personally i have never noticed any difference in alignment of any profile (i tried many). I just don't understand all that hype about Hana cartridges made by Excel Sound for low price.
A difficulties in alignment advanced stylus profile is a myth.
The real problem is MC cartridge re-tipping! |
the Denon 103 is a pretty nice cartridge for the money. Its not perfect but it does many things very well sounding very natural on the right tonearm.
There are many MM cartridge for nearly the same price with much better overall sound quality of any tonearm. The price of Denon is not the end, because there must be a SUT or MC phono stage to handle LOMC and super heavy tonearm. So the actual price is Denon + SUT or MC Phono. In this combination it is not cheap at all. |
@cd318 there are many vintage MM and MI with fixed stylus holder assembly: Denon DL-107, ADC TRX series, Technics EPS100 and P100 series, SONY XL-50 ... There is a screw to tighten up removable stylus to the cartridge body.
Audio-Technica cartridges designed even better without that screw and a plastic stylus holder never fell apart and it sits firmly on AT-ML170 for example.
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Everyone who has many different cartridges and tonearms know very well what is more important (if tonearm and cartridge are matched together). And I assume we know how to align and adjust a cartridge/tonearm. Enough said. |
I’m only interested in vintage cartridges such as the Audio Technica AT-ML180/OCC or OFC cartridges and the OEM corresponding styli.
This is a hell of a cartridge and much better than AT's LOMC I don't know how but i bought two NOS styli for my AT-ML180 after 5 years of searching. Another (very close) model is AT-ML170 @tyray
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3mV is not high output even for MM
For MC a high output is something like 1.7mV (but such MC carts must be avoided). People who’re using a high output MC do not understand that high output = coil winding and higher moving mass. LOMC with 0.2 - 0.5 mV are better than HOMC with 2mV. Everyone with MC cartridge should buy a decent phono stage first. If there is a problem with gain (MC phono stage) then MM and MI cartridges are better than all those High Output MC.
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You can end all the threads mentioning 4 cartridges:
Denon 103 (MC)
Hana (MC)
Nagaoka (MM)
Audio-Technica (MM)
All of them are relatively cheap, affordable, not all of them are universal for all tonearms: Denon has the lowest compliance of them all and was designd in the ’60s, Nagaoka has pretty low compliance for MM, Audio-Technica are mid compliance MM. Hana is just one of the cartridges Excel Sound made, they have been making cartridges since the ’70s for many other manufacturers, but it wasn’s something special. Well what do you expect from a $400 cartridges?
The world of great inexpensive cartridges consist of so many different models from too many different manufacturers, but the knowledge and personal experience with different cartridges is so limited that we have always discuss the same models again and again.
It’s too bad. I wish people could inform each other about new discoveries, not just mainstream models from any online recordshop based on receit review chart.
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Some MM cartridge can be as high as 9mV :) |
@luisma31
In the 70's/80's a HOMC cartridges were designed for use with MM phono input. Probably a buyer could save on expensive SUT (or MC phono stage) associated with LOMC (low output) but still keep using an MC (high output). Industry always trying to tell us an MC is better and they can make high output MC for some people. In my opinion this is the only reason. If you want a Moving Coil cartridge but you have only MM phono stage (and your budget is limited) then you can use HOMC. To make an output much higher manufacturer should use more coil winding, it will increase a moving mass system (Moving Coil). High moving mass of a cartridge is not good in theory. This is why a classic solution was an external Step Up Transformer and Low Output MC (too keep the moving mass low).
Moving Iron (and Induced Magnet) cartridges have lowest moving mass. Most of the decent MM also have low moving mass. Those cartridges are better than any HOMC in theory. And stylus is user replaceable.
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Makes sense, yet industry pushed the concept that MC was superior to MM, possibly the case for LOMC, 5 years ago I don't recall seeing the LOMC / HOMC terminology much spreaded, as I remember your posts were the first I found here advocating for vintage MM.
Thanks Chak
I have at least 2-3 High Output MC cartridges (still have two of them), I must say I enjoyed using them, but later found much better LOMC and MM, MI. Even with MM some people always like high output, don't know why, some people think louder is better (I do not agree). |
Reading all these I want to remind that Ralph's experience with MM cartridges is very limited to certain mainstream models, I already asked about those models and never seen any serious MM in his list. There are some serious MC for sure.
In my opinion a cartridge is definitely more important than a tonearm but I hope we are all have a nice tonearm by default (after years of experience). Try to change a cartridge on your reference tonearm and the difference can be huge, especially when you will switch from MM to MC and back.
I think not everyone can buy over 20 cartridges, especially from the dealers (for insane prices these days). Most of the audiophiles are using 1-3 cartridges and still can not get away from the mainstream models. |
@atmasphere In earlier threads on audiogon, when I asked about your MM cartridges, I never seen any top models even from Grado, AT, Pickering, Stanton or Shure mentioned in your answers.
After decades of reseach all the best MM cartridges were re-discovered by many audiogon members and posted in the dedicated MM thread.
Low model Grado cartridges, Shure V15, all Stanton/Pickering (except 4 top models) do not belong to the "best MM" or "best MI" cartridges today.
This is why I said "mainstream" models, you could set-up millions of them. But you can't even mention specific models for some reason, why?
I remember you said your entry level Grado performed as good as some very expensive MC in your arsenal. I could imagine how some of the best MM or MI cartridges could sound in your system (maybe much better?).
I set up cartridges for others too.
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@atmasphere Well, nevermind ...
But let me admit:
Grado Gold is not a top model Grado cartridge and never was, a top model was Grado XTZ (Joseph Grado Signature model designed in the 80s) and it’s much better than GOLD mainly because of the stylus. Joseph Grado explained very well why this model is his best. The XTZ have the most advanced stylus of them all.
Shure V15 was very popular model, but the best Shure cartridge is ULTRA 500 and this is a flagship model, not V15
Pickering with model number 4000, 4500, 5000, 7500 are top models with nude Stereohedron tip, the rest of the Pickering are not even close. Most of them are cheap mass market MM carts with bonded elliptical styli.
Stanton 881, 980, 981 Stereohedron are top of the line, the rest are not even close (same as Pickering lower models).
All those cartridges are High-End MM/MI even today and they will blow away most of those $3000 MC cartridges being under under $1k category.
I have never met (yet in my life) any single person who dislikeв those top models I've mentioned above.
In your theory tonearm is more important than a cartridge, but you never mentioned exact models of those great MM you have tried, except for the Grado Gold which is clearly not the best, but Grado Gold was almost equal to your best LOMC as you said earlier. Well this statement speaks for itself.
You have a fear of buying great vintage MM or MI even NOS.
I have no problem with that. It’s your fear, not mine.
I will be happy to buy all of them if I could, and luckily a lot of people share your opinion so I’m happy they are still ignoring them and do not bid on the same auctions :)
As I said earlier I’ve had more problems with new overpriced LOMC cartridges than with my NOS or MINTY vintage top models (MM/MI or MC), maybe because I know what I am buying?
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@atmasphere For the mastering it's nice to have a cartridge that most of the vinyl lovers actually using (like inexpensive Grado for example), not those ultra high-end MC.
Regarding the tonearms I just don't understand what do you mean. Because I've been using Technics most of my life and never had a miss tracking or something (and Grado DJ200i was on it for a long time).
As for the High-End tonearms I also don't understand, maybe I'm lucky but for me matching carts and tonearms is not a rocket science. Good tonearms tracks all the matched cartridges perfectly. There are many great tonearms made in the golden era in Japan (fully adjustable, clever design). I see much more problems with modern tonearms without adjustment (cheap simple design).
It's not necessary to pay $5000 for Tri-Planar, just like with cartridges.
Now using FR64s or FR64fx, Lustre GST-801 with matched carts, and many more (light mass or heavy mass) tonearms I am happy with the sound.
Old is gold! |
Azimuth can be adjusted on ANY tonearm with detachable headshell. There are many inexpensive ($20-60) headshells with azimuth and overhang adjustment.
You don’t have to buy $5000 Reed 3p with azimuth on the fly to adjust your cartridge, anyone can do that on any cheap tonearm with detachable headshell.
The VTA is the issue and tonearms without VTA adjustment is nonsense! Manufacturing and selling a tonearm nowadays without simple VTA adjustment is disrespect.
I want to admit that every audiophile already have a good tonearm if a person is serious about this hobby. The key to a perfect sound is a cartridge (well matched to tonearm) !
You can put your Denon 103 on whatever well matched tonearm and it will remain a $300 cartridge, you can’t improve it until you will get a better cantilever and a proper stylus profile and then you will hear why cartridge is more important than a tonearm. Tonearm can’t solve the issue with that.
Compare two different cartridges on the same well matched tonearm and the difference will be huge. Simply compare that DL 103 on heavy tonearm with another low compliance MC from a different league. Then change one well matched tonearm to another well matched tonearm and the difference between the cartridges will be the same. A better cartridge is always better. Because a cartridge (and its stylus, cantilever, generator) is responsible for the signal pickup from the record groove.
This is why tonearm is second, cartridge is first (unless you are trying to use mismatched components).
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I’m sure we all do but some are easier than others. The times I used to wish my decks had a detachable headshell like my first Rega 3 did. Of course they didn’t because we were told detachable was very bad.
But was it really?
No, they are not better
With the Rega there wasn’t much need to manoeuvre. The square bodied Nagoaka cart was fairly straightforward to align and the mirror check revealed no issues either.
Overhang must be spot on.
I remember having a couple of protractors for alignment and some were easier to use than others. I knew that with a 2 point protractor that the inner alignment point was critical to get right because of potential end of side tracking issues.
I use Dr. Feickert NG for all tonearms/cartridges.
I never found arm height to make difference so I kept to the recommended advice of keeping the arm parallel to the top-plate/platter.
Negative VTA can be problematic, positive VTA isn’t a problem. If you have Rega TT with Rega tonearm then you may find the VTA is negative and you can’t fix it, you can only add something between a cartridge and tonearm (or thicker mat). It’s important to get setup right but don’t get too obsessive. There will always be the odd opera torture track that will give most arm/cart combos hiccups. I do not have yet anything like that on any tonearm/cartridge I’m suing now (no miss tracking). The Hi-Fi News TEST LP is the best test for cartridge suspension and tracking abilities. I do remember certain Shure cartridges being renowned for their tracking abilities. Perhaps it might be worth finding out what carts classical stations such as BBC Radio 3 used to employ in the days before they switched to digital. Almost any good high compliance cartridge can do the same. The Grace LEVEL II for example, and it’s much better than any Shure. But Grace is a Japanese cartridge, you guys remember American cartridges only (and how they were advertised) @cd318 |
@atmasphere
please post your favorite tonearms, except for Triplanar and SME
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