Andy did a great job on my Clearaudio Panzerholz. Replacement, even with the Clearaudio trade in, was way more expensive than a new cantilever and tip.
Yes, he was very optimistic that his job would/could sound better than the original. I had 4 choices and ended up going up a step to end up with a better than original.
Does it sound better? YES
Is it different? YES
It is a very different cantilever to look at but the sound is very close and quite amazing. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. |
No one can explain better than J.Carr (Lyra) who is a cartridge designer himself. An this is what he said: To retip a cartridge that was originally equipped with a stylus made by one manufacturer with one made by a different manufacturer is like rebuilding a Porsche engine with Jaguar pistons and crankshaft - the components used for rebuilding may be of high quality, but the design philosophy is rather different from the original.
Still, as one poster wrote above, changing only the stylus will alter the sound less than if the cantilever material is changed. When a cartridge is designed, the designer will consider the moving mass (sum of the stylus, cantilever and coils), the resonant character of the cantilever, and the (sonic) propagation velocity of the cantilever (affected by the cantilever’s mass and rigidity), then choose the suspension and dampers accordingly. If you change the cantilever material, you are effectively throwing the original designer’s calculations away. -J.Carr I think it’s very important. Re-tipper will never tell you this, because they want you to pay for their service and your cartridge will work after their service, but how and for how long no one will tell you. Even a person who owned original and shipped it for retip will get it in a few month and can’t even compare it to the original anymore. What you will get is no longer original cartridge and no longer original sound concept of the cartridge invented by its designer. Of course it depends how good was the original cartridge to your ears, but you get the idea. |
I have sent my cartridge to Andy at needle clinic for a new cantilever and stylus.
Will advise once I get it back. |
I put this in the wrong thread earlier.
I should correct something. When i commented earlier i meant new cantilevered not retip. SoundSmith calls themselves retippers but mostly as far as i know they prefer to recantilever. All three that i had done were recantilevered. I don't actually hear much about just retipping. Correct me if this is wrong.
@chakster
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A Cartridge that has been unfortunate to have a Stylus broken off, where the break is seen to be within the Cartridges Main Body, is a very different damage to a Stylus being broke as a result of a bend in it, or a Stylus needing to be re-tipped.
A stylus break within the body can damage the whole connection assembly inside, the bobbin and generator can incur damages, and these may not be able to be set back up to the manufacturers build specification.
A Cartridge may be returned as working after a treatment, but it may also be compromised in its performance.
I would be careful when going down this route, and would need to be completely assured of the success that can be produced with a rebuild. |
I have had Peter rebuild some Benz carts for me ( up to Ebony L ) and the work and process and communication is all first rate. The reality is they come back sounding different for SURE.
I have certainly heard his stuff up thru Carmen and he js a designer of note - but he shouldn’t be your only source - only one person on earth knows everything and feels confident recommending products he has never heard.
Lyra and Hana would both be on my shortlist as well as Dynavector. Hoping that Dyna discount program works out.
best
Jim |
I will say again that i think retipping is a good choice if finances are an issue. I’d rather have a top cartridge retipped than a brand new inferior cartridge. But why do you think it must be inferior cartridge, do you believe that it can be a better cartridge even if the price is lower than retail of the new high-end cartridge ?
@chakster did you read my last post? I had an emt tsd 15 retipped by Soundsmith. Im actually listening to it at the moment. When i got it back i compared it directly to a new one with about 20 hours on it. Both were very different sounding.
Right, different sound, as you said
The original was definitely better though.
Exactly But the retip didn’t cost much and for 1/4 the cost it’s money well spent. It’s good too. Just not as good as the original. This whole retipping thing should be looked at for what it is. Cost effective. I see people trying to sell retips for high prices, thinking they are like new again. They are not. A retip is just a retip. Great post, exactly what i meant. The cost is about $350-750 for retip/refurbish with different cantilever. One example: paid about $500 for NOS Dynavector Karat with Diamond cantilever with Micro Ridge stylus (unused). Paid even less for NOS Dynavector Ruby with Micro Ridge stylus (unused). Entire cartridge (NOS, boxed) with exotic cantilevers just for the mid price that retippers normally charge for service. And there are many cartridges anyone can find unused for reasonable price. Some people prefer to stuck with one cartridge forever, it’s hard to understand (at least for me). |
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Too add: years ago someone visiting broke my transfiguration temper w. I listened to cd’s for a year because i couldn’t afford a new one. SoundSmith to the rescue. For $450 I was back listening to my system. Just kidding. I never did actually listened to many cd’s. |
I will say again that i think retipping is a good choice if finances are an issue. I’d rather have a top cartridge retipped than a brand new inferior cartridge. @chakster
did you read my last post? I had an emt tsd 15 retipped by Soundsmith. Im actually listening to it at the moment. When i got it back i compared it directly to a new one with about 20 hours on it. Both were very different sounding. The original was definitely better though. But the retip didn’t cost much and for 1/4 the cost it’s money well spent. It’s good too. Just not as good as the original. This whole retipping thing should be looked at for what it is. Cost effective. I see people trying to sell retips for high prices, thinking they are like new again. They are not. A retip is just a retip. |
Really, I was advised it may actually sound even better. Of course, for this reason there are so many re-tipped cartridges for sale on ebay. If a re-tipper himself will tell you that after his service it will be better than Dynavector then why he’s not a cartridge designer who can make much better cartridges using his magic parts ? You’d better read what cartridge designers like J.Carr (Lyra) posted about re-tipping process here on augiogon long time ago, and why it must be avoided if you like the original sound of certain manufacturer (like Dyna for example). Especially if your re-tipper will change the whole cantilever. And people who always claimed re-tipped cartridge is better than the original can’t even compare original to re-tipped sample, normally they got their re-tipped cartridge in a few month since it was shipped to re-tipper. If you can compare one thing to another with 3-5 month gap between the listening session then you must have some special computer brain. Normally A/B comparison is the answer to all the question. P.S. In my opinion it's better to buy another original cartridge. Personally i would never re-tip/refurbish any cartridge if original manufacturer can't service them with original parts. You can only upgrade very bad cartridges like Denon DL103 with better parts (different cantilever, different stylus profile), but if you cartridge already top class then it's not a good idea. Re-tippers have no idea about calculation made by cartridge designers, the sound can be way off that calculations. J. Carr explained it as a cartridge designers, so i trust him, not a re-tippers. |
I had Soundsmith do 3 retips for me over the years. I wouldn’t expect them to be better. Maybe as good as original if your lucky. But all three i had done sounded different than original. I even did a direct comparison between a retip emt tsd15 and a brand new one. Very different sounding. I think some people send in worn cartridges and get them back sounding better because they sounded bad at the time of being worn out. I don’t feel any retip is as good as original. Unless maybe the denon 103 people seem to like to retip. No experience with this. I do recommend SoundSmith though. Their work is excellent and both the Peters are great to do business with. For $450 they will make your worthless broken cartridge into something quite decent. If you don’t like it you can probably sell it for more than that. |
There’s every chance it will be as good as it was when new, assuming the person who works on it knows exactly what he or she is doing. It most likely won’t be the same as before, but that’s a different matter altogether.
I’ve had a number of cartridges retipped or rebuilt (by Soundsmith, Benz Micro, VdH, Expert Stylus) and every one sounded just as good or better than before. The latest, an AT-OC10, was a particular success and is now about as good as anything I’ve heard after a trip to Soundsmith.
As long as you’re not swapping the boron cantilever and line contact stylus for something inferior you have nothing to worry about.
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Really, I was advised it may actually sound even better. |
Simple job to replace the cantilever, but your cartridge will never be as good as the original Dynavector. |
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Email Andy Kim at Needle Clinic. He did a fabulous job on my Clearaudio (bent canteliver). It sounds amazing and his turnaround is only about 3 days. I did email Andy and he was quick to respond, believes its a simple job. |
Email Andy Kim at Needle Clinic. He did a fabulous job on my Clearaudio (bent canteliver). It sounds amazing and his turnaround is only about 3 days. |
I would seriously have a look at a Lyra Delos.
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There are plenty threads on the Audio Technica ART9 for a reason. https://www.lpgear.com/product/ATART9.htmlIf you have a 65db+ phono stage, the ART7 is possibly a bit more refined. https://www.lpgear.com/product/ARART7.htmlBoth are quite good at their price point, and subjectively compete with carts higher up in the food chain. I used one for several years. Also used a $2.5K cart, which was nicer, but not for twice the retail cost. After that bit the dust, I've circled back to an ART9 which I found NEW for $750. Another brand to consider is Soundsmith moving iron carts. The rebuild program is very reasonable, making the initial purchase wound less painful. https://www.sound-smith.com/cartridges/fixed-coil/zephyr-mimc-%E2%98%86I have the SS Otello as an emergency backup, and it's quite good for a $400 entry cart. |
Edit, did some searching...
1999 first publish date for the mentioned
flux damper patent (XX-1). Which means it expires any day now. Or has.
It being 2020 and all that.
If it is good, then the copies will come piling in. Or more correctly, out, into the market.
The backside to that argument is...not everyone will recognize the potential value of the flux damper system, and it may not be copied, even if it is finally 'legal' to do so. |
I don’t think Dynavector retipping their cartridges, let me know when you will get information from them. Here is my Dynavector thread with info about some other models worth to look for, especially Te-Kaitora in your situation. And here is the interview with Dr. Tominari of Dynavector Systems |
They do have a trade in program, I have sent a request to our local supplier, hope its a good deal.
But will also inquire about the retipping option. |
Doesn't Dynavector have a trade-in program for busted cartridges? You'd get a new one for a reduced price. |
just reading about the flux damper. Oh. I beat that one, as original problems go... about a decade ago. Longer, actually. Maybe it’s finally time to publish....
Edit, did some searching...
1999 first publish date for the mentioned flux damper patent (XX-1). Which means it expires any day now. Or has. It being 2020 and all that.
If it is good, then the copies will come piling in. Or more correctly, out, into the market.
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The Karat has a very different cantilever assembly.
You might have a better shot with the dv.
Always worth a call or email. |
I Did send my last broken Dynavector Karat to him previously, but he returned it saying the cantilever damage was not something he could fix.
I suspect it will be the same with this one. |
Call Peter Ledermann at Soundsmith. First check out his site, read a few Soundsmith cart reviews, and watch a few videos of his to get a feel for it and understand just how much knowledge and experience and skill you are dealing with. Then give a call, give him all the same info and see what he says.
He can fix it, improve it, or replace it. All his work including repairs and new products come with the best warranty in the business. Full disclosure, haven't actually bought anything, never met the man either. Its just that part and parcel of any upgrades is comprehensive research, especially when the planned upgrade is from Koetsu. Having done the research a Soundsmith from Ledermann stands alone at the top of the list. So check it out and give him a call.
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