Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil


I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
@grannyring

Resistors: I will never use Path Audio. Too far out of spec for me to fuss with. :)  It's precision or nothing for me.

DI: Well, a 4 way has a lot of potential advantages in dynamic range.

Why would you find them aggressive in the upper mids/highs? I'm not personally familiar with those tweeters, but those I respect find them very good.



Best,

E
By the way, their patent is rubbish IMHO.

Best,

E
Don’t know as I have not heard them. I just keep reading how resolving they are and that is good, but can be.....fatiguing. Those tweeters sell for $57 each at Madisound and he has 14 of them! Just tweeters. He sells the speakers for $3000 shipped, No way he paid even half that. My goodness. Never heard the tweeter. Owners say they are very easy to listen to however. 

I did not know Path Audio had spec issues? First I heard. Great sound in a two way speaker mod on a Raal tweeter. Fantastic really.


@grannyring

Normally you’d be right. "High resolution" usually means bright, but not in this case. That’s the whole point about the array. :)

By making a large format tweeter they get high-resolution without requiring an uptilt in the frequency response.

Of course, this is all theory, but if you ask me "Can large format tweeters/arrays produce much high resolution and detail at the listening location without brightness compared to a simple dome or ring radiator?" My answer would be: "YES!"

Same general theory as ESL’s. Only ESL’s can have very complicated and rough frequency responses.

Best,

E


Some one recently mentioned they bought matched Path Audio resistors from Parts Connexion that came in rather high.
See the post from @c_avila1 regarding his purchase.  He wrote:

I also replaced the Duelund Cast resistors to Path Audio resistors. The original resistors' value is 8 ohm. I purchased the Path Audio resistors rated at 8.2 ohm but actually measures at 8.7 ohm (matched pair for Partsconnexion). I hope that doesn't skew the crossover design too much.

That's about 6% over spec. At $30/resistor, that's way way too much.

Best,

E
I may be getting worked up enough to make some circuit boards as part of a speaker kit. I'll have to leave room for a Caddock or Mills in the one series resistor in the circuit so I can give it a good listen. :)

Best,

E
@erik_squires I contemplated about complaining to PartsConnexion and ask for Path Audio resistors that measure within the advertised 1% tolerance. I decided to keep the resistors just to "see" how the speakers sound with resistors at .5 ohm over spec. I have no complaints about my speakers thus far. 
@c_avila1

Good feedback. :)

E
I have also Many Path - resistors and non ware exceeds 1% tolerance. Strange. 
Chris has excellent measurement tools too. I would be surprised if you asked for a matched pair and it was that far off. Do you have a reference resistor??  Relatively cheap to buy a 0.5% resistor to compare.
I have several pairs of Path Audio resistors and they were all the correct value.  I didn't like their sound quality though.

I am surprised this thread is still continuing.  Haven't all possible issues about component part quality been covered by now?
I have many resistors like Millis 12W , mundorfs Supreme and so on and on. Worst case are Duelunds Cast/non-CAST. 
But i have ordered maybe 20 Path Audio resistors, never asked to match them and they all are within 1% spec. 
@slowikpl

What did you mean by "worst case" on the Duelunds? Do you mean they don’t have a tight tolerance?

@salectric

I have found how a resistor, cap, or wire performs in a given is completely system dependent. Completely. I tried the new Duelund 16 ga as speaker cable and did not like in my system after 120 hours of break in. I change my USB cable to Curious and power cords to Furutech and I now love the Duelund 16 ga on my speakers highs and mids. I just love it. Success or failure of a given part is hit or miss based on my experience. I loved the Path Audio resistors on a Raal tweeter as part of a two way design. So easy to listen to and open. Nicely resolving with a comfortable ease that the Raal tweeter liked. I liked 😊

Many new parts have come out that are very exciting like Duelund stranded/tinned wire, Arizona Blue and Green Cactus caps, Duelund tinned copper caps, Lefson resistors, Clarity range of caps.....etc.....
I agree with Grannyring on many new exciting parts.

The internet and threads like this have really changed audio. The world wide market has opened competition to supply to enthusiasts with these parts.

to Eric

Value can be something like Duelund 16ga tinned copper wrapped in cotton. Not expensive at all and I think cheaper than any Duelund wire ever. Is it not the internet, threads like this or blogs like Jeff's place that give consensus (somewhat) to value?

Eric like your recommendation for the lower cost Mundorf caps being good value. 

it is very hard now for a company to have high prices to low value with a bunch of people like everyone who has posted here. You get found out pretty quick!


At the beginning of this thread I felt in the dark.

sometimes I wasted money reading ads on caps etc. As time went on through recommendations my cap choices narrowed to the likes of Duelund, Jupiter, Jensen and VCapCuft and I am using every single one of them now, some I like more than others but none of those are anything but very good!
Schubert

The Gold Lions were two matched sets with date codes 2011 and 2012.

The ones in use for 4 years are worn out sound not as good as the old tubes I have. One set maybe 10,000 hours the other 7500.

The Psvane's 12ax7's are clearly not worn out at this time with in between the other two pairs.

I liked the sound of Gold Lion's better but they might not last as long. The Psvane's in first test sound as good as vintage, easily.
Just installed my second set of speakers Duelund RS tweeter caps. They have sat here for a month or so.

Not sure why I waited? Busy and maybe some fear these might not be the huge improvement they were on my first set of speakers, years ago...
The old vintage aluminum foil in oil cans are out. They sloshed when you shook them, so no resonance control at all.

Replacing the caps with Duelund RS again sounds like completely different speakers.

The vintage caps are extremely alive. The problem again this is too much resonance. 

So far it has been just like many years ago. It was not easy (years ago) to replace the original caps and maintain the foil in oil sound until Duelund VSF caps went in. The other caps then poly caps changed the sound extremely. (plasticized the sound)

My wife (years ago) did a double blind test of Sonic Caps vs. vintage and was utterly shocked at the difference and chose the vintage caps...

She thought I did a great thing! Problem was she was picking the vintage oil caps...


Duelund RS, juicy detail, listener fatique way down, natural sounds. MASSIVE cut in noise. More relaxing grown up sound. 

Vintage oil caps, things sound like a lively noisy rock concert even when you know it was recorded in a studio, noisy high freq with loss of control of high freq. Listener fatique. In short bursts maybe the most alive sound ever?




Could any vintage cap (Western Electric etc) of any era sound like Duelund RS? I can not imagine it? Was anyone using resonance control?

Vintage caps certainly no bargain. Better I would like to know how? Other than vintage. Certainly a large group like WE wire but general consensus is Duelund better. I have both but have not compared. The Duelund now sounds very good with Duelund RS tweeter caps. 


http://www.hifitown.com/index.php?dispatch=categories.view&category_id=179




In fact WE caps are more expensive than Duelund RS.

$825 vs. $620 for the ones I need.


http://www.hifitown.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29898

I am glad to see on Jeff's Yazaki-san mention his old Marantz 7 pre-amp and the power supply cap. (Mallory)

In one of my old Fisher amps (I was going to part out) has (what looks like a late 70's early 80's) Mallory power supply caps which I am going to take out to keep. I have taken out all the old tubes. 

I have mentioned on here before about struggling to replace old power supply caps with new electrolytic caps. I had replaced a vintage one with Jensen and did not go well put the old one back in. (thank goodness I did not replace due to being finished)

I am glad Audio Note is working on a replacement for the famed Black gates WKZ.

Even Jimmy on Jimmy's junkyard was working on new cap.

I have mentioned before I am worried when mine go bad. I can not find a good replacement.

I am glad others are working on suitable electrolytic cap replacements!
I uploaded some pics of the man cave.

We have a set of Pearl Drums in the basement. I use them now for sound comparisons with the speakers. I have to admit the sound is close but real drums have more energy than speaker reproduced sound.


I wish I would have got a Duelund CAST woofer inductor over VSF. I think it would have close the gap from already very good to more energy.
Yazaki-San sent me the Mallory to strengthen the power supply in the Coincident Dynamo a couple of years ago along with the green Arizona capacitors. Those plus Ohm resistors made the Dynamo
spectacular...Yazaki-san is a gem, a top-notch person as well as very excellent designer of most things audio. Best, mikirob 
Hi Rob

He sure does sound like a top notch person!

Did he mention why he thought the Mallory sounded better?
Also, do you have more info on the Mallory cap? The name, where to buy or find, age of the cap? I use the Arizona caps and like them, but am not sure where to find the Mallory caps. 
Volleyguy1,
read Jeff's Day's latest blog, the article again, I believe Yazaki-san mentions the Mallory there  briefly describing the benefit.

grannyring,
The name is Mallory, made in USA, back in the 40s-60s, I believe; mine is a 30MFD 450VDC, 637-53093 then below that number
235-81460.

I further believe these Mallory caps are extremely difficult to find. I can't help you there. Yazaki-san was kind enough to send me one from his private stash since he made all the suggestions on how to improve the Coincident Dynamo, and improve it is an understatement. The Arizona Green Cactus also upped the ante big time over the stock Solen in the original Dynamo.
The Ohmite Brown Devils with the above combo is just fabulous. Best, Mikirob


hi guys,
someone of you has compared silver/oil against claritycap MR ?
Grannyring I do not think you can buy the Mallory caps anymore?

I will post pics of mine, which I have not heard. I do not think Mallory was so special just still making vintage power supply caps in the can like 50's and 60's and would have worked in the Marantz 7 kit.

The ones I have are replacement for original in an old Fisher EL84 Receiver. I believe same era as Yazalde-san's.


Grannyring I have uploaded a pic of the Mallory cap I have in an unused amp I am going to take parts out of.

I have uploaded a pic of my one amp. It was like surgery getting those caps in there! Duelund VSF where the room was thin. Duelund RS and CAST where room. Jupiter on the phono stage again room was a big factor.

Original power supply cap was replaced with Jensen Electrolytic and then vintage was put back in after a month... Yikes... Dry sounding. I have not found one good new electrolytic cap. (sound wise)

I think that is a Jensen small electrolytic or Black Gate in main amp... The only electrolytic in amp! Which always seems to be a good thing...

I am going to upload some of the experiments pics of over the last few years.

Kind of embarrassed in some ways the time that was spent on this. A vintage Fisher x202 with ASC can caps in the power supply. Major surgery and a deck made to hold the huge caps!

Ugly amp in rough shape so never intended to be main amp. Just came with a vintage wood case to use for my x101-st.

My second amp is loaded with 2nd choice caps which are still very good!
Pic should be in my system.
Sorry about incorrect spelling of Yazaki-san... My apologies did not look at what I typed. :(
I have posted pics in my virtual system of some of the experiments and meltdowns of the last few years.

As I bet the vintage power supply caps are a reason for the sound as Yazaki-san has mentioned, I too believe so is the paper bobbin output transformers. 

I have posted a pic of the downside of paper... (fire!) That is the output transformer that caught fire in my basement! Another one just shorted out.

The junky x202 with the ASC power supply is posted as well. Sounded different than vintage power supply. Can not comment as I did not hear that "same" amp with vintage power supply. I know you are looking at the rough x202 but I am not going to test a poly power supply in a nice vintage amp! (hacking it up like that)

A mint Fisher 500c all restored. I have the missing cap cover and correct volume knob. Amp builder called it a 9 to 9.5. 


I am going to do a nice looking mounting board for the Lascala's and will post pics.
My first major screw up could be days away! :)

I am recapping my now non functional Linn Karik transport.

Rubycon caps.
Full set of Gold Lion 12ax7's wanted to retest them against the vintage.

Notice more bass vs. RCA. Initial tone was not as good though in first few minutes.

I have sung the praises of the Gold Lions like many others but they were worn out in 3 years 10k Hours. 
Replaced electrolytic's in CD transport. Did not wreck it but did not fix it either so no comment on sound difference.
My friend swears by the Quicksilver Gold contact enhancer.  He uses it on all the pins of his ICs and on the inside parts that hold the IC onto the female connectors.  He also uses it on tube pins, spade lugs, prongs of PCs, fuse ends, and he would use it on cartridge pins if he had a TT. 

He claims it dries very quickly, and takes about 3 weeks to start the improvement in sound once connected.  After that, the sound improves in all parameters continuously for up to 6-7 weeks.  You can disconnect the wires or tubes a couple times without having to do this all over again.  You will have to wait again to hear the sound difference like the first time.  Be sure of your equipment before you do all the work of using the contact cleaner--wait to dry--apply the enhancer--let dry--connect the piece to the system.

According to my friend and Brian Kyle, IT IS WORTH THE EFFORT in the difference it makes--way more organic, clearer, less mechanical, more real sounding.  The only drawback is the effort needed to do your whole system.  It does the same for your home theater picture, same improvements as the sound.




I have used Mundorf a lot in the past no more after a lot of research and comparing plastic  is not organic sounding and foil is night and day better then
metal sprayed on paper .2 minuses ,also a natural damping .
my solution to myself and others that know caps put these very close to top Duelund cast for less then 1/2 . The Excellent Jupiter Copper foil bees wax cap 
60-70%,and a Arizona - Blue Aluminum foil  paper Mylar oil cap 30-40%.
if needed to mix with a big cap Clarity CSA Excellent Big cap up to 100uf 
try a minimum of 10%, 25% of big cap ratio for best results. I guarantee 
you a great sound if listen to  p.s take an smaller .47 close to the board as an extra cap to lower  ESR, inductance.  Arizona Cactus come in 3  mixes .
red just paper, not as good on bass great mid- high, green cap higher ratio paper 70-30 paper Mylar , blue 60-40mylar ,paper a bit richer. Very good price and quality  was West Cap back in the 60-70s think old LesPaul guitar 60s deep tone 
bingo Cactus cap ,these are better.
Personally  I would not seek old capaciyors they dry out and leak especially speaking of spending hundreds if dollars West cap was huge in the 60s
A Japanese team from 2007 to 2014 improved upon these classic caps to 
Today's standard  the Arizona Red ,Blue ,and latest green  
All 3 are in mineral oil ,and Aluminum foil. The red uses just craft long grain pulp paper.  The Blue paper and Mylar  Mylar is richer  sounding and better bass,
Green has Mylar paper but more paper .Personally I like the Blue with Jupiter
Copper foil Bees wax cap.  This combination up there with best Duelund cast and $60%  less expensive Jupiter letter mids but drier, Duelund more natural in that respect .add 10-20%  cactus cap  noe has the rich body of the Duelunds.            Best small bypass caps, Duelund Silver oil .01uf, $100 a pop, put a few in your electronics Or speakers truly tightens up the detail. 
Hello Audioman

No doubt on foil caps sounding better!

Yes the Jupiter is cheaper at low uf values but at .47uf about the same and at 1uf actually costs more.

Compared to Duelund RS that is which I feel is the best comparison. I have used both and lean Duelund but think one should hear both!


I tried to rebuild a Linn Karik III/Numerik CD player to no avail. I had to sell it off.

I have bought a newer Linn Majik CD and Naim CD5.

I find the amp in by bedroom system a little harder with the newer Linn player and all my leftover caps. The amp is loaded with Duelund RS, Jensen Paper Copper foil, Jupiter Copper Foil and VCap cuft.

Speakers caps are Duelund RS the cap I consider to be very good value, not cheap but I know what I am going to get.


In my opinion Audioman there is absolute better as you mentioned, foil vs. plastic then in fine tuning it can be synergy of every part in the system which can be what works best in synergy.

Jupiter does not make 2.2uf Copper Foil 100v cap that I used in my speakers. The smallest is 3.3uf and it is $200

At my size Duelund RS 2.2 uf is $182.


I keep hearing that Jupiter is much cheaper and it is in the .01uf size and I have some of those but over the range there is not much difference? (except in low uf)

I find in small values the Duelund RS to be more dynamic than Jupiter and are physically bigger. (albeit more expensive)



Jupiter Copper foils do come in 2.2uf both in 100v and 600v. They are my favorites over even Duelund CAST. Want to really have the ultimate for less than crazy cost? Combine that 2.2uf Jupiter copper foil cap with the amazing Duelund .01 silver foil bypass cap and be ready to smile big!

500 hours of burn in before these caps are at their absolute best. Compare 200 hours vs 500 hours and they sound sooo much better at 500 hours. Not even close.   Most folks don’t realize or believe this fact. 

@audioman58 


Hello audioman58! :)

I was wondering about using the .22uF/600V Jupiter Copper Foil caps in some tube amps I have. I have Russian Teflon's already installed, and was going to try the Jupiter CF's and also add a .01uF Silver Duelund in parallel with the Jupiter. Do you think this would be OK? I've done this before with speaker crossovers, but not in a tube amp. Should I give it a try, or just use the Jupiter cap by itself? Thanks!

To Gammag.   You can use any variation you choose if you have the room. 
I have the Duelund bypass caps on my speakers.  Here is a tip.
You $$ can go much further is say you buy the value you need say a .33uf
The Newer Duelund Jam caps  have Exactly  the same New type of Tinned Copper foil oil in paper dielectric, the only difference is the treated paper case which does make it better ,but not at 3x the cost just because of its case. It us for sure better then the Audyn Copper.  The tin splits the difference vs silver, a great balance 
I have 3.3uf in my preamp could not be happier  far better then the Mundorf Supreme silver oil I had . I now have a.22 Jam on my speaker to complement 
The .01uf Duelund Tinned Copper bypass cap  .for the price of 1 .01 Duelund bypass  I can almost buy2- .22 if  Duelund Jam caps 20x the 1uf And 94% of The cast performance. For myself an excellent investment. Inside Identical tinned Copper, paper in oil, the Putter jacket has the damping treated paper,
Vs the Aluminum I wrap 3m electrical tape around it 2x ,and small a chunk wrap on the leggs heated to form truly damps the caps at 1/3rd the cost well worth 
The effort. Myself and friends has found similar results, the take 400 hours + 
To fully runin on the big 3uf cap  .22 give a week 150 hours.

Thanks Audioman58!

I just installed the Jupiter CF's that replaced the FT-3 Russian Teflon's. Appears that the volume output may have dropped just a tiny fraction. I know that they are new and need some hours on them. I guess I'll hear some slight changes as time goes on. There is a very slight graininess, but I imagine that is expected until they have some hours of burn time. I am hearing some finer details in the music though. The bass is good! I may wait and put some hours on them and perhaps later, I can add some .01uF/3000V Cornell Dubilier 940C's. BTW, are you a member on DIYaudio or Audiocircle? Thanks again! I will keep your suggestions in mind!

@audioman58 

I went ahead at bypassed the .22uF copper foil with a .01uF CDE cap and have been putting some hours on them. It appears that the bypass cap helped the details better, but it does sound a little on the bright side. Perhaps I should continue to let it burn in more?

I also have some blue cactus caps that I have yet to try. What are your opinion on these blue cactus caps? I was thinking that the Jupiter CF's would be better? What would be your recommendations? Thanks again!

You need at least 200 hours of runin. A .22 Jupiter Copper foil  bypass will for sure help but need at least 200 hours  should sound nice.
Grannyring you like those Duelund Silver bypass?

My tweeter in my speakers uses (2) 2uf. (can use 2.2uf) and I have replaced one speaker in bedroom system and trying to figure out what to do? 

That Duelund bypass is that good?

I might have to do a comparison again of the amp now with many hours on the Jupiter caps against the Duelund.

I must say I really enjoy the 2nd system but have not done a direct comparison. My daughter likes the bedroom system better.

When I started off it was not even close now I listen to it easily as much.
Going to do test of Western Electric vs. Duelund Silver 2.0 and Duelund 16DCA cables after listening to WE 16ga.

I have installed Duelund Silver in Bedroom system and disorientating.