Well why not just finish your duelund investment off right?
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?cablspkr&1225763765&/Duelund-Speaker-Cable-10%-off- |
Duelund resistors are definitely the best, the mundorfs are nice too, the mundorfs are a little more relaxed sounding than mills, but duelunds are pretty much like straight wire, very clear, very smooth and open sound, less sound stage compression. |
Well again remember something the chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so you are ending up with 50% of this mind blowing sound from the mundorf being a part of the equation as well, meaning the dueland will not enhance information beyond what the mundorf is capable of in the first place, even if you are only running the dueland on the horns and the mundorf on your woofer.. So all in all your mundorf is probably dictating most of your flavor in combination regardless if the dueland is better or not.
In this case both are important contributing factors.. That being said no doubt the duelands are excellent, but I believe the Mundorf silvers are probably as good, but might take a certain application to show it. And yes over time the caps will sound different regardless. |
I am actually suprised from all your trials here you have not considered the Audio note caps? Copper versions are a bit cheaper than the Duelunds even.. Maybe a stack of those on your mids would do the trick, getting right in between the mundorf/duelund combo on top... I am curious about these myself... I have seen in a few cases they say Audio note is the superior cap to all, including the V-caps and Duelunds in various applications. |
First off I will shed a little light.. I have experience with just about every cap, minus the Duelands.. I can say easily Sonicap standard Gen II's are not the end all be all or near it, they do cost very little money though, I mean a 1 uF cap is what 7 bucks? They are decent, but much better in some electronics than speakers from my experience, however even in components will be handed a beating from some of the better caps.. They are very linear, but slightly dry, and are no question flat... But they also seem to exhibit a slight over raw enhancement, much like Dynamicaps, which are even worse in some critical applications if you don't want a lot of added peaks and valleys in your overall sonic soundscape don't use sonicaps or dynamicaps...
This is just my opinion in the limited applications I have tried... The mundorfs are Great, but still slightly overpriced, a more neutral and capable cap to an extent in my opinion is the Cardas golden reference, and the Sonicap platinum, but both in very small values and are pretty pricey... They take about 400 hours to open up, I ran them in a hi power TUbe application for about 2 weeks straight with cheap 2 dollar tubes to burn them in, and WHAT a difference.. Speakers will NEVER burn in a tube like power electronics until probably even 1000 or 2000 hours so get ready :-) |
Volleyguy
Actually I was again not defending them, just sharing an interesting tid bit I was given on sonicaps... Believe me, I don't use them in the end either so that was not really my point.. Plus to be honest, sonicaps don't mix well with other caps, use all sonicaps seems the only way to make them perform their best, also sonicap platinums are really good as like a small bypass cap, so they can mix. |
Oh okay, well yes 2 in parallel the way you speak would be better explained as a Bypass stack, or "Batteried" together.. Parallel in the circuit is a different thing, and normally this is how the cap is with the woofer which you don't have anyway, and again could be a cheap cap in most cases with basically no huge difference.. Anyway thats where I got confused with the terminology.. I can agree that a stack making up 13uF is fine, and yes has some advantage over a single cap simply for voltage rating going up, and or better conduction using dual input and output 18 gauge leads etc
however in your case I really doubt you could justify it being better necessarily one way or the other, I would still look into maybe seeing if mundorf or duelund could save you money and get a custom value 13 uF single if you really want to push this. |
Volleyguy
I am going to tell you this as I spoke once to the designer of sonicaps.. He literally states that the first 50 hours on a sonicap is okay, but at 50 hours is MUCH MUCH WORSE!!! Almost unlistenable in some applications. Then goes on to say they will be on the upswing again and probably start to get where they need be at 250 hours...
That being said I have had some with 300 plus on them, they are not a bad cap at all.. Not perfect but not bad, and yes were rather flat at times without really good dynamic contrasts... But I am not defending this, Just funny as about 2 years ago I was told this from the horses mouth so to speak..The designers exact statements were at 50 hours they turn for the worst unlike most caps. Why? How? Who knows... I can say the do get a bit sweeter and more separated over time.. Again we are talking about an average of 10 to 15 bucks a cap so don't expect the fullest mundorf experience..
I can say the sonicaps are better than any of this (Kimbercrap) or (Auricrap) caps that use to be about 3 bucks a capacitor and in the last 4 years gone up to 16 bucks a cap due to some popular manufacturers using them! They really suck, and maybe some applications are quite good, but I have not had that experience.
Oh and again burning in any of these caps in speakers will never really approach the level they get with using them in powered electronics from what I have found. |
Not sure what that means parallel caps are better than in series? I think you mean parallel caps are not as critical and you can buy at much better prices than ones in series.. Series caps are very critical, parallel not really.. So you can save some cash just using one of decent sonic signature with the correct value on your mids if they are in parallel only..
I would still go ahead and run with the mundorf supremes since they are more than premium enough cap for your application, and you seem to be spending that kinda money anyway.. as for your tweeter your hearing the duelund because it is in direct path (series) of feeding that horn and does ultimatley in that application give you the signature of the sound. |
Volleyguy
You are looking for a tuff call on that one.. I have in klipsch horns used exactly a 6.8 and 6.2 stacked of the same brand and ended up with much better result than splitting them up with 2 different brands or using one of lets say 11 uF and 2 uF to get the same end value... If you are buying a duelund that large and costly, well yes you are going into a "Peace of mind" issue that can not be solved even if it does sound great.. Plus the midrange is going to be even more critical in my opinion over the tweeter.. however you have knocked down the edge of that speaker already with the mundorf/duelund combo.. I hate to say it, but money wise, and performance wise, I would not stick anything on your mid horn but a stack of the mundorf only, meaning a 6.2 and a 6.8 and you will probably hear no more than a 5% difference for way less money than a duelund combo... Leave it on the tweeter, but also you don't need either of these caps on your Woofer, it should be parallel and have much less effect, but if its cost effective and you can get a mundorf supreme as a direct size replacement on your woofer go for it, BUT you woofer will benefit 10 TIMES more with replacing just the inductor on it with a Alpha Core 12 gauge copper ribbon inductor.. The cap has way less effect in this case, but even a solen cap for 2 dollars can sound great with the big inductor feeding your woofer. |
First off if your woofer has no cap thats even better, secondly YES an inductor mainly on the woofer alone will make a great deal of difference, caps not so much... You will get better more solid response and you will swear your speaker goes up another 3 db from like 98 to 101 db if you put that inductor on the woofer.. I guess the mundorf inductor is fine, but was not aware they existed? The duelunds look killer, but man they gotta be a ridiculous amount of money, I would go alpha core the big ones... You don't have a mghz inductor by the way its 2.5 mH, which is Milli henry as the measurment... That is a pretty large and VERY heavy in weight inductor by the way.. On your woofers will open them up like niagra falls so your bass response will be pretty highly increased...
As for inductors on your mids and highs, yes new inductors like the 14 gauge alpha cores would be far superior to the iron core cheapy ones on them now from the 70's, however inductors are more or less going to be more accurate buying new ones, not necessarily night and day difference on the horns overall like the caps, its the reverse for woofers, it will be a night and day difference with better inductors on the woofers, but caps are less critical on the woofers as long as they are the accurate value for the most part, in your case even better you don't need them at all! As a matter of fact you might find your favorite overall upgrade to that speaker is the inductor on the woofer all together, your integration with the mid driver will be that much more lush and dynamic.
Again unless your building outboard crossovers which I highly suggest, you might have a problem fitting and mounting a 2 lb weight inductor inside... they are not that cheap either your gonna be about 60 to 70 bucks each for that value I believe in the Goertz alpha core copper ribbon 12 gauge. |
By the way see link below... This is the last outboard and full upgraded version of klipsch speakers I did for a friend of mine.. I have done K-horns, cornwalls, and reference series by outboard premium crossovers in the past, you will see that using all premium parts like this make your original crossovers look like matchbox cars! These were only 2 way klipsch by the way, so no midrange circuit which is even more complicated, costly, and sizeable.. You will see the horn board was separate of the woofer board, and then they were stacked on top of each other to save some space and built into an enclosure which still ended up about 8"X 10"X 6" and next to some pretty large TUbe amps sitting in one pic with them hooked up you can see the comparison, they get rather large.... Good luck, and those caps and inductors are the sizes you are using, same physical sizes...
http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/103108.aspx?PageIndex=1 |
Oh well simply stating the application itself being in parallel will have less effect on the sound, so in a way we are agreeing.. But that does not mean the quality of cap is as critical, because basically it should have less effect on the final sound is the point.. Series are worse and thats because you are forced to use them in a position totally effecting the output, and why you found the duelunds to be better as they are probably just better having the burden of that location. |
Wait a minuet, we might be confusing Parallel! You mean parallel as in the Circuit parallel, meaning one end of the Cap is on the positive tap of the amp and one on the negative tap of the amp? Or Parallel meaning using DOUBLE caps stacked parallel to equal the final value needed, if so then yes higher grade caps to bypass could be better, or 2 of equal quality in parallel for the earlier example a 6.8 and a 6.2 making a 13 uF stack yes is using 2 caps in parallel but that is not the same as Parallel in the circuit diagram.. |
Well now we are getting silly, I agree CAP PHYSICAL size HAS ZERO to do with performance.. Reason a Mundorf may be more dynamic is it is in fact 2 caps in one, and run to be like almost a cancelling type device... And they are in series inside the cap housing which might be what adds to the slight Harmonic excess, and the slightly "Higher" efficiency that many claim to hear that cap has, which in turn enhances the dynamics..
The Duelunds are a different animal and layed out completly in a different geometry and probably the characteristics is similar to the same effect the mundorfs have on the sound.
As for sonicaps, well my opinion they are a cheap cap, and yes are a bit flat, not a ton of detailed information nor are they 3d or spacial masters by any means, however they are of a more conventional design than either the mundorf or duelund, and they are simply of different materials as well.. NOTHING EXOTIC is used in the Sonicap, the others are totally off the standard path of capacitor materials with much higher degree of quality type tolerance and approach..
But I totally agree Physical SIZE wars has nothing to do with it and is totally ridiculous... Zero correlation to do with what is going on here.. There are smaller caps that can sound as good, and also as bad, difference is the bigger caps have higher voltage ratings because then the dielectric is thicker and will not melt, this could be worse for some designs who knows?
And Dulunds are only so large due to the geometry, They are not nearly as thick as a round cap however. |
Actually I know for a fact a sonicap does not sound as good as either of the 2 other caps here, so thats not the point, However it would be interesting to see taking the 2 smaller caps of smaller value, be it Sonicap or whoever and "BAttery" them together for example 2 sonicap 1 uF caps to equal a total of 2 uF, and I can tell you this, I have actually heard it, and it was in tube amps, this was as dynamic as a single mundorf which would have 2 (4uF) caps inside doing essentially the same job as the "Batteried" sonicaps... However still the mundorfs use higher grade materials, in the end will sound more liquid, less dry etc... With probably a little more organic bass and dynamic contrasts...
So in order to make all things equal if you wish to compare PHYSICAL size parameters in this case, you would Need 2 SONICAPS which will be DOUBLE the size you are now talking about and it would be VERY close in physical size to the mundorf which has DUAL capacitors in ONE single housing.. They are totally different caps, and totally different sizes, but not because of what you think or see. |
To put the theory to rest, I just looked up and converted BOTH the sonicap size of 2 20 uF caps or a Single Mundorf 10 uF cap which is 2 20 uF caps in one body and guess what, Identical SIZE TO THE 'T' !!!
Sonicap Gen 1 20 uF 1.41" x 2.02" multiply x 2 = 1.41" x 4.04" long
Mundorf 10 uF supreme cap 1.42" x 4.2" long
So if Sonicap was to construct an identical cap as the mundorf as they already make, this should debunk the size theory... Sonicap does not construct DUAL caps in series in one housing, mundorf does, but they are identical in size with this config... Again I will not argue sonicaps are good, I can care less, but it has nothing to do with size... And if it does, essentially you should get nearly equal dynamics using DUAL sonicaps than for making up a single value, which in fact I accidentally heard due to a tube amp manufacture I have first hand experience has done, and it was excellent and VERY close to the performance replacing them with a single better brand cap of the same physical size.. which happend to be a mundorf with exactly double the capacitors built inside one unit etc.. |
I have bypassed mundorf silver / oils with .1 sonicap platinum's and yes it does add a little more clarity, Zip or speed, and more solid bass. If cheap enough its worth a shot, but then again I think just using one single better cap if possible might be the way to go, due to add up the cost of an exotic teflon and then the big body type of a mundorf and it might cost as much or in some cases more than just using a cap that will do it pretty close on its own, if its in a small size that is.. For example a 1 uF cap is not too large in value, and a better one vs. bypassing would prrobably be better, but if you got an application of like 2uF or 5 uF I can see the advantage in trying a nice .1 uF to bypass it especially in the cost differences. |
The first White papered Cap, first real tested cap against like 300 others.. The first it seems with real results on how or why sound changes from cap to cap, and its not electrical... Highly suggest reading the first link, and then Watching the second link which is a video of this.. Very cool stuff, I am currently installing these into a tube preamp.
http://madisound.com/pdf/claritycap/MRWhitePaper.pdf
http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=6667 |
Volleyguy
The MR Clarity cap is not a mass produced cap like their others it is a brand new line, and from the Humble hifi site with the tests the one just below the new clarity MR is the DTAC which was tested and pretty much ranked the same as the mundorf.. The Clarity cap MR is more expensive, not quite as expensive as the Silver gold oil..
My concerns with Mundorf oil caps is mostly in long term electronic environments of heat, and nobody has really been able to see if newer oil caps will hold up over a very long term or not deteriorate at all.. Speakers I would not be as concerned about leakage or floating from the value as much.
Hence my choice in going this route, the Oil Gold got a 11.5 rating nearly as high as the duelund in the speaker tests..
However the DTAC from clarity cap which is said to not sound like any other clarity cap got a 10.5 and these MR's should be just that much better...
I can tell you this, the MR is quite a bit different approach for sure, I bet they will for about half to 1/3rd the price in electronic applications be equal or better than the duelunds. I used the SILVER oil Mundorfs in the electronics, Great hi's and mids, but bass was not as authoritative being in a Full range application like an electronic device putting out 5 hz to 50 khz for example..
Your Testing is very limited to simply a VERY limited frequency range in your speaker just feeding one DRIVER response at a time... That does not mean they are not great or superior in that single application as you have found they are that good, but for reliability, and for FULL signal unrestricted audio frequency handling, I believe this MR from clarity cap, and such types as VH caps, sonicap platinums, might just be slightly a cut above most of the mundorf and even possibly duelunds in this application for a few un-obvious to the passer by reasons.
I am planning to try your Duelunds in the copper foil VSF config on my own Klipsch horns.. I have full out Alpha core inductor and Jantzen superior caps in them now, The bass would benefit probably ZERO from using a duelund so leaving that alone I will change out my horn cap with the Duelund because I can believe they have that one more step of dimension and smoother noise floor, however I kind of refuse to use the Duelunds that you need to order special in 400 volt at double the price for an electronic application.. I am sure they would be fine, maybe a little magical, however due to the odd Shape, and the "Iffy" results in a full range electronic application, including the fact you will still have more caps changing the sound down the road in the speakers.. I will just believe the MR's will do a better job.
By the way the Jantzen superior caps for about 25% of the cost of mundorfs I believe a better value and sound overall, and are slightly smaller for installation.. you can see the praise on those as well at the humble hifi site, I just decided you can't put all your eggs in one basket of tone.. You are not the first to break ground on the duelunds sounding excellent in hi frequency transducer applications. So I believe you that they are special and worth a shot even at the obscene prices, which by the way I need to use duelund because they are the only ones that will custom make any value you need, any other cap I can't really get it. |
Volley
Oh and sorry what I mean by the odd shape of the duelund above is installing it is a task in my case for this electronic device, and may not fit as professionally as I would like. The MR is super huge too but with the round shape can probably make it work with some standoff from the board or something. Also I highly suggest reading that MR white paper again, it will sink in more and somethings I missed on the first run thru, also watch the video a second time, and you might be swayed that for the price they should be right there if not better in some applications than the top mundorfs or duelunds. |
Dgarretson
Sorry I see what your saying.. I missed the whole russian 5 dollar thing.. yeah worth a shot |
Volley no offense but I believe both of those comments you cut are very just well "universal", they basically said well we decided to see if different shapes and materials were simply different shapes and materials not necessarily contributing to sound but contributing to the type of design necessary to use these materials they chose, I don't see that they were trying to discredit or say anything was wrong with other designs..I mean come on you don't see everybody including duelund trying to give a little extra fluff to their design marketing? I mean they virtually discredit the entire industry if you look at their point of view too!
IN FACT go look at the Clarity Cap DTAC its totally out of control ! It does not look like a cap at all, it looks like Duelunds inductors! So They are not trying to say the types of designs were not executed well by many, but simply that it could be executed obviously in a more traditional way as well vs. forcing a square peg into a round hole.. in a capacitor configuration. Don't think they discredit anyone, and they even state they worked closely with many of the cap manufactures on what they were trying to accomplish. There is definitely snake oil in some of the designs..
By the way I was not totally blown away by Clarity cap SA series, they were nice, and did nothing wrong, also HUGE, and believe it or not better built than even the mundorfs on many levels and much cheaper, but they were just nothing too exciting.. I would not have suggested the claritys if I did not see this was not even of their own family in design, I found the clarity caps however the best of cheaper caps minus the jantzens, and thats their lower lines, I expect pretty good things from the MR so I will not B.S. anybody about them, I have no gain from that, but they just make sense over spending 200 for V-cap or something that seems to probably be no better. here is the link to the DTAC. The DTAC was their previous top of the line till the MR came along as well.. Tell me Clarity cap is only trying to push conventional cylinder type designs now :-)
http://www.claritycap.co.uk/ |
I realize not really anybody can comment on duelund in electronics.. I have no need for the Cast design as I have a feeling its just gonna be another level of diminishing returns especially in a 10 dollar horn... But worth it if you really want the best without replacing a speaker.
As for low frequency, Yes the 12 gauge copper ribbons from alpha core goertz are 10 times better, the power, low frequency response, balance and efficiency all seem increase substantially in all of the klipsch speakers I have upgraded in the past, ONE thing is to make sure however you can get the EXACT replacement value is purchased to replace the original, not one off the shelf that is just close.. I believe Goertz is in connecticut still and you can call they will sell you a pair of the exact value inductors you need.
However for the Horns I found that the Alpha core 14 gauge did not really mark a large improvement, you just don't need the energy for a parallel inductor in the horn circuit, I found a better sounding and easier to install inductor for the horn was a 14 gauge 800 watt Erse inductor, its an air core, not ribbon, which you can buy oversized and have a company wind it down for you to the correct value smaller, the ribbon inductors you can not wind down to a lower value, the erse also handles 150 watts more than the ALpha core, however of course 14 gauge and 800 watts is not even close to necessary for your 100 db horn, but I like overkill and good quality so I will only go down so far :-)
The erse inductors are about the same price as Alpha core of the equal gauge and value for your horn. But I still love the Ribbon 12 gauge copper on the woofers the best. |
Clarity cap prices here...
http://madisound.com/manufacturers/claritycap/mr.php |
Even in 1980 they were realizing possibly the biggest advancement in upgrades of this audio technology was not the exact topologies but the capacitors it seems.. I have heard myself bigger sound differences using the same component with different caps over buying other totally different audio in many cases.. Interesting article below, check out the date!
http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/pickcap.htm |
Clarity cap MR
Well its the best cap made period, for the price none will come close.. A Vcap with 400 hours on it will probably sound 95% similar.. out of the box these bad boys are all there! Unreal soundstage, earth cracking huge, vast, tight and clear bass
Vocals are full and dynamic without a hint of glare. Highs are silk, better than the oil caps in my opinion even, how did they do it? I have no clue, some caps are best in certain locations or frequency ranges, this is the best Full range wide open cap I have heard.. I was very worried that they would need some substantial burn in to clear up, or have lower glare and distortion, they don't need anything.. They are what I consider for the price of about 60 bucks a 1 uF cap, perfect. My previous caps in my tube amps and preamps before.. Yes they were all in the same equipment and changed out over the years
Warning the MR clarity caps are HUGE and HEAVY
1- my equipment came with Auricaps "So so"
2- Cardas caps, very nice, a little rolled off, but as good as any teflon caps
3- Mundorf Silver oils, excellent with highs and mids, bass was a bit too soft
4- Sonicap platinums, might be slightly better than the cardas, definitely better bass than the mundorfs, also a really good bypass cap. Take forever to burn in however..
5- Dynamicap (TRT Wondercaps) A little too emphasized and zippy, but if you need to pep up some tubes these can help.. These were not bad on their own, and pretty good in speaker applications, but benifited very good from sonicap bypasses above.. I have used these in both electronics and speakers as with all the above caps.
6- Jantzen superior, best cost to sonic ratio also with best voltage handling to most of the above, for the price these kill the cardas type caps which are not cheap, and are similar but better, they don't take much to burn in, they are a tiny bit fuzzy compared to some of the teflons, but still very natural, distortion is bettered with a good teflon bypass cap making these a bit more "Solid" sounding.. They have the best bass out of the above caps as well as very extended highs.
7- Finally the Clarity CAp MR
For the price, build quality, and incredible sonic response, these are not beat.. Zero need to mix with some other cap to try and re-balance something, absolutely the best out of the box caps as well.. And they play nice with others, ZERO compression in the sound, Best darkest background and just depth, no doubt this is a worldclass cap, I can believe these for the money will probably beat out the V-cap types without question and are available in way bigger values than the v-caps
I would look no further than these if you want all of what these exotic caps claim like the Mundorf Gold Oils, and the v-caps, even the duelunds. These will work out the kinks in even the most critical applications I truly believe and thats not just because I am now using them.
I have not heard the caps in a speaker like all the others above, however I can say I doubt they will not perform to the highest in that application as I have them running full range single caps right now handling virtually the entire signal feeding all my other caps in the system which are 100% Jantzen superiors, I dumped all the others. I am going to back them with a Duelund VSF in a crossover, this will be a world class mix..
My opinion, best cheap but not too cheap caps are the Jantzen superiors for sure, no contest even with the caps 4 and 5 times the price in the ones I have experienced, the MR's are that final just put it on cruise control level however, they do nothing but perfect.. Who knows once they burn in, but this is the first ones I have heard that I don't even care!!! Much like how some believe the duelunds off the bat are just better from the instant satisfaction. And Zero regrets on the money spent vs. some of the above which get questionable. |
Oh forgot to mention the Jensen Oil Copper caps.. Reason is they are not worth mentioning... That should tell you enough, very fuzzy, very boring. I know they make the dulunds, but obviously a totally different design. |
Volleyguy
Yep.. A full on no holds barred crossover will cost more than the raw price of some speakers.. But everytime I have done it, was worth more than speakers costing 3 times more, just do the crossover and your 1000 dollar pair will be easily in competition with a 5000 dollar pair from my experience. Also one thing you did not mention, not only the parts cost and building is a pain to be professional about it, but they will not fit with these kinda parts in any speaker really, you then need to do external crossovers, redoing much wiring, and other issues to get the bi-wire or tri-wire setup to the outboard crossovers.. So this method is only for the hardcore, if you get involved be prepared! |
Hifisoundguy
/Nope once again :-) They look interesting.. Flat body much like the duelunds. |
I don't know about Linn speakers.. I honestly just put forward an example of a 1 k pair
Yeah sure I could see the linns if they are that good with better parts being on par with something in the 10 k range, why not? Thats all it takes, I mean speakers in my opinion from the range of somewhere in 1 or 2 k a pair up to 25,000 all have good drivers, anything in between is mostly effected with results from better cabinets and damping, and the crossover network or lack of network, so for sure the better a passive network, or NO passive network and running a full range driver, or Active crossover system as you are looking at should in fact be better. What amazes me about klipsch which I mentioned on another thread here is their new Palladium series.. For 20,000 dollars are WAY out of their element, and they use Bennic crossovers, I have seen the pictures of them, that speaker would destroy with a better network for sure, again it has to fit in the cabinet, and of course klipsch will only put in about 50 bucks a crossover not 500 because their profit is very high then. |
Yes the crossover is excessively weak for a 20 k speaker was my point... Klipsch making anything in that range might be way out of their element in my opinion :-) |
I believe the guy you speak of is on this site, and on another thread saw the new pricing of 20 k vs. 15 k originally projected for the palladiums and said thats way to much now and I assume maybe went back to the more realistic priced speaker.. I could be wrong, might be a different guy I don't know. |
I agree the less passive components the better, and also the less parts, the more expensive ones can take over the spot and have better effect. Your linns have some very large values, and too many components for sure, especially in 3 way speakers the midrange circuits get complex and costly for the most part. I would not take on a design like that unless your made of time, money, and space to really maximize your passive crossover upgrade. |
It would seem that the Duelund would have more effect with solid state since it breaks up the harder edged sound.. So my guess is simply you have a bad match of a SS amp for Klipsch, which is very easy to do
Use a Mcintosh or Monarchy audio SS Class A amp and you will hear the difference, at least feeding the SS with a Tube preamp is almost mandatory for Klipsch or any horns in general. |
Or buy the clarity cap MR's... They beat them all from what I have heard, they are poly |
Volleyguy
I would almost give you my own personal money back guarantee on this one.. However I have not heard the MR in every application, but from what I can tell with educated guess, and ears on how most of these caps react, the MR is indeed a very different and special cap, and for the money can not be matched that much I can tell you. Hey if your already going nuts on spending what you have in caps, this is really the final stop for you anyway if you are really looking for that next level, that or the V-Caps which I don't suggest and still cost like 4 times the price of the Claritys and don't even make the larger values! |
I have tried the Clarity MR by the way... So I did report back a few posts back. |
Hifisoundguy
Nope. And I think they already went right back out of business even though that ad is from 2007 that you see in your link, from my understanding with some being sold off in bulk to whoever will use them.. I remember something about counterpoint using these exact caps for years and all at some point within a few years would many times just fail and need to be replaced, hence the guy that was counterpoint started that altavista site or whatever to actually do upgrades and start removing all these. |
Volleyguy
You answered your own question... If you believe in the microphonics created by the inside of the cap elements effecting sound, once again Clarity Cap MR seems to have made a BIG difference and effective sonic benefit from this. They are brand new to the market, and of course will take a while to gain some steam, but I got a feeling these will do mostly all of this including vintage sound for the best pricing now after experiencing them in a critical location vs. several of the other caps we are talking about that I have owned here. |
Volleyguy
Again the Clarity MR is super fast, linear, balanced, and simply the most perfect cap I have heard yet.. I have now tested them being in the main output caps vs. the several above into a rather raw and harsh horn system between me and a friend of mines reference series.. These are an excellent Zero bad effect cap. however they will not cover anything up..
So bottom line, Good silent components are needed, the MR will make every noise come to life, they are super transparent so if you got hiss or whatever these will just let it right thru true to the signal. These are far better than any of the mundorfs I have tried so mundorf is at best for a good tweeter, or midrange circuit, they are not the best in Bass for a full range signal or woofer in my opinion. Silvers are not anyway, maybe the standard supremes are better in bass as you seem to claim, but nothing has touched the MR in lower freq's as of yet minus the Jantzens being very close, but not nearly as clean and fast sounding of a cap..
The Sonicap platinums so far get trounced by the MR as well, which is somewhere between the V-Caps and the MR, the MR its just invisible and has control over the helium highs better than any of the other caps. Meaning ZERO fatigue. I would assume this is similar to the Duelund control in that respect. |
I get what your saying.. But I think you just have not tried the right caps yet, but of course you can stack 1000 dollars worth of duelunds and get your desired effect, just trying to save you a little, in the midrange I would be shocked if the MR's did not match up 99% to what you hear from the duelunds... I have not used the MR in speakers, but in a much more touchy location in my system anyway, nothing worked better, I will have the duelunds going into my horns hopefully in the next 2 weeks, they had to be custom ordered in my size by Parts connextion. Again I would have easily stuck with the MR's knowing they will probably do as well in this application, however they don't make the size exactly as duelund will in this case. |
Duelunds vs. Clarity cap MR size for size.. Well I know you can get a Clarity MR for about 60 bucks in 1 uF and a Duelund is somewhre in the 120 to 135 region.. So yep half the price of Duelund.. But double what a Mundorf silver would cost I guess.. As for larger sizes like you need on your speakers.. Well a Clarity MR 10 uF is something like 260 each
. But a Duelund I am sure is in the 500 each range.. So there you go. I would not go to such sizes in any cap if not necessary, I have speakers that only require about a 6 uF cap tops, and my components are in the .22 uF to 1 uF range so no need to get silly on extreme cost large values for me as it might be for others.. And yes I was in fact using 100% tube, not totally vintage, they are newer components but have vintage sound along with the clarity of newer components and some better parts.. However I am still using a fully modified custom Tube PReamp and phono, I did now put in some Pure Class A Solid state mono blocks which are the only so far to match up well to the tube S.E.T sound of my other amps in my system. |
Volleyguy
First off I would be shocked if your tweeter inductor is 18 gauge, probably not and its most likely a 20 gauge in that speaker.
Second you are way to concerned in the case of the inductors.. In the tweeter it should be in the circuit parallel... 16 gauge standard magnet wire types should be excellent, even 14 gauge, and you can get silly with getting solen perfect lays or erse which both are overkill and cost more than you need at about 20 bucks an inductor..
You can also get the copper ribbon Alpha core inductors in both 16 gauge and 14 gauge as well.. or even 12 gauge which would be pointless in your application.
The capacitor is far more what will do the most in your tweeter, and fact being you can probably switch between your old inductor and a new one and barely if at all tell the difference..
Your Woofer is a totally different story, you could put a duelund or a mundorf cheap M-cap or superior and the biggest difference will come from your inductor being in series in there, which the bigger the better, I suggest the copper ribbon from goertz. You want to go to duelund well thats your choice, however as for resistors.. I have now tested the Mundorf resistors, and the Mills top ones, the Mills are very good, the mundorfs a even bigger and cheaper, which do the same job.. From reading the Duelunds being silver and the graphite really is not a better resistor but much more "Bright" sounding material from the reviews I have found, and many have backed up and actually removed the duelunds due to the silver probably being the culprite in most tweeter circuits especically horns putting them a bit too much.
This is all in the Shades of Grey area my friend, and with your speaker being a basic horn from klipsch, I would not get into overly exotic resistors and inductors you will guaranteed not get anything but the point of diminishing returns spending another 100 bucks or something over getting the very premium mundorf resistors or mills, with good copper standard inductors.. Wax paper, poly, or PLATINUM coated is the last of your concern, you will just need exact value inductors for the most benefit, and again a 16 gauge on the tweeter with magnet wire or ribbon will be the same as anything else almost guaranteed, I have tried them trust me.. As for the woofer again thats where you want the money in the inductor in my experience. |
"Is a Alpha Core at 12 guage air core better than the vintage Iron Core which is likely wrapped in waxed paper?"
You are definitely mixing priorities up here.. First off guaranteed that a 12 gauge copper foil will probably trounce the wax 18 gauge or whatever it is in your woofer circuit from 1970... Caps, well Caps are in a different world over how an inductor might or might not sound.. Caps are a material that can effect the signal more, an inductor of a good copper material with tight tolerance value will work well from just about any manufacturer, and in the case of the woofer I truly believe its more about how thick you can go, in otherwords a 12 gauge etc... will get you better, tighter, cleaner, and even faster low frequencies in my opinion.. Not once has a good inductor shown a problem in a woofer.. Its all about the exact right value.. By the way alpha core in connecticut I think they are still in that state will sell you a single pair of exact custom value direct if its not on the shelf with other distributors, and they do not charge any kinda premium for them.. I will admit this, the Alpha cores are not as good in my opinion on hi frequencies or midranges necessarily, but the best I have heard on woofer circuits demanding high power copper conduction, and have used them with several klipsch speakers with un-real results, but your running a vintage pro driver that barely moves I believe with tight surround, so its hard to gauge how well or not it will increase your response on that driver, but I know it will work excellent..
And by the way this "Poly Plastic" sound you are supposedly pinpointing really should not show in any woofer really, your hearing it up in the mid probably 1000 hz and higher giving you a more compressed sound, this will not occur in your woofer, your over thinking it trust me. |
I don't know of any wax paper anything quite honestly.. I don't know if anybody even makes such a thing these days.. However from inductors I have used, I have gone really stupid once and used the 10 gauge like 10 lb inductors from northcreek custom made, very expensive.. Good no doubt but found in the end probably unnecessary.. Again a Good Series thick gauge like the 12 gauge on your woofers will be plenty to give you full response without power compression from any amp.. I have driven them with 8 watts and had monster subwoofer bass out of drivers driven with 12 gauge copper ribbons.. Very efficient, and yes the effect you are kinda looking for with Clearing up the bass, and having more "Efficient" or more "Effortless" sound will be apparent with the Alpha cores for sure on your woofers.. I believe spending something like 150 or more on inductors will just be again another point of diminishing returns.. Although I have no idea what size inductors are feeding your woofers, if they are anything at about 2.5 mH or under you should be able to get a pair somewhere into the 100 or 130 a pair range from alpha core..
And yes your tweeters etc
are in parallel not series which is why you will find little to no difference in most cases, go with a nice 16 or 14 gauge if you really want to get thick magnet wire inductor, air core.. Whoever you can find is fine.. I would not spend much more than 30 to 50 bucks a pair of inductors in that case. But for your woofers being with the series inductor directly feeding the power to the driver yep you want something good, you might be shocked at the extra balance you get to keep up with those mundorf circuits once you wake that woofer up and then you might find the midrange with the mundorf is not harsh or plastic at all once you put in an inductor on your woofer, it will blend and give you more low end with better results and you might save yourself from replacing the midrange circuit again, and just keep the duelunds on the Tweets
Good Luck |
Thats very interesting.. But I bet they are in the 11.5 rating probably equal, I would take the MR purely based on build and future reliability with no OIL.. Especially if in an electronic piece vs. speakers. |
Face,
Your not imagining, I used the MR's in a more critical location than you and its a much quieter and smooth background than any of the other caps... Yep the size is ridiculous on these so applications will be limited for most as they just won't fit, however still the best value for the money and materials available right now in caps that I can see or hear. |
Well I would suppose you heard of the audio note capacitors as we mentioned them a few times in this thread alone
So yes the speakers are another one of their products, but not sure if they are what you would want or need, they are about 10,000 per pair I believe and thats with just a single 8" driver and soft dome tweeter. |
I did not order the cast caps.. Which I would figure are the longest... I ordered just over 2 months ago for the VSF's... So yeah its been a very difficult cap to get obviously, I was told by partsconnexion that if I wanted to order I would need to do it right then, which was like August 5th because they were putting in one big order for a bunch of customers at once to get it done faster and ship all in one.. Well obviously that made no difference, they probably waited a couple more weeks and such others that finally ordered like your casts etc... finally pushed them to put the order in I guess. |
