Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.


Showing 13 responses by rauliruegas

Dear Volleyguy: AS I already posted speak about caps quality performance is not an easy task, here is another caps comparison:

which one is the right one?.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Dear Volleyguy: +++++ " I did some measurements for some ..." +++++

the size is not the critical subject on quality performance and here you can't compare not only because its designs are totally different but ( for example ) the Mundorf are rated at 1200VDC against 200VDC on Sonicaps, if the Sonicaps were designed on 1200VDC its size will be bigger but like I say it is not important.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Dear Volleyguy: Nice thread and a lot of fun you are having.

Speak about caps and caps's quality performance is almost always a relative subject opinion not an absolute one because any one of us have different music sound quality reproduction priorities and likes different kind of " colorations " due to audio system own limitations.

You are looking not for a " neutral " cap but for a " colored /distorted " one: +++++ " I want a warm not overly detailed sound .......they need lush smooth sounding caps " +++++
Nothing wrong with that it is your choice.

Of the passive electronic parts de caps IMHO are the ones that show more colorations/distortion and that you can hear it. Over the time I try several caps looking for the less " colored " one, looking for neutrality and one of the reasons that I was looking for neutrality was that a neutral cap ( in the speaker croosover ) is a way to know if the whole audio system is really right on target, a neutral cap can/could tell me if I have " problems " somewhere in the audio chain.
What happen if I choose a " colored " cap that with is own colorations hide those system quality performance in the audio chain?, well maybe I like it ( like in your case ) but what we are adding is more distortions to the final signal reproduction and ( at least ) for me this is not what I like to have and hear, my quest is to be nearer to the recording and this means: no distortions/colorations/noises/degradation on the signal trying to mantain its original integrity and this means too: accuracy and neutrality ( not analytical, lean or cold performance. ), looking for the less signal degradation in each link in the audio system chain.

Why I give you all this explanation?, well things happen ( and I'm not saying I'm right, it is only my opinion. ) that I already try/test ( over the time ) the Mundorf, Sonicap, V-caps, Duelund and many many other to name it here.

Till today I don't find any less colored/distorted cap that the Sonicaps. The Mundorf, Duelund and the like are not a neutal one items: far from there ( IMHO ).
I know that you don't like the Sonicaps and you know why you don't like it?, because it is telling you that your audio system has several quality performance " problems " in different audio links ( your vintage ones caps are too colored and yes I know the Scala: I owned it. ).

Do you know which is the signature quality difference performance between a distortion audio device ( cable, caps, resistors, inductors, tubes, etc, etc ) and other with less distortion?
well it is exactly what you report from the Sonicaps: " I hear less volume ", NO what you heard was not less SPL what you really heard was less DISTORTION that you " feel " like less SPL, believe me no doubt about.

Merganser already posted that you are not given the time to the different caps to settle down and I agree totally with him and I think that like me he is trying to help you.

In good shape let me to tell you how I'm looking you about this new " toy/game " to you: like a child with new toys that take it one and then other and the other and other: a lot of fun but almost nothing ( IMHO ) that really could help you in the long run, of course that it is your time and money.

Other thing that I'm worried about is that you are taking the opinion of those guys that made several test on 30+ caps ( the link that you posted ) where you don't know its real music/sound priorities and worse than that where you don't know how high or low are the distotions/colorations of their audio systems.
Along that the opinion of them about to " tame " the caps performance mixing different caps tell me that those people are not the best experts to take in count and let me explain about:

what they state and you follow is that you can compensate the distotions/colorations of one cap with the different distortions/colorations of other cap.
So what you have here is an absurd by any standard: that from two different colored/distorted different caps you achieve the right one!!!!!!
I'm sorry not agree with you about: from two distorted/colored caps ( adding its distortions ) you achieve a heavy distorted/colored performance not the inverse. That what you hear like it or not it is other subject but the reality is that you have more distortions. I don't like it but the important subject here is that like to you.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Dear Volleyguy: Good. I could not agree totally with you but I respect you in every subject you posted.

Like I told you: at the " end of the day " the important subject is that you be happy because is you who has to live with that audio system, it does not matters what I think about.

There are many " doors " that we can open to discuss on your thread but I think that could be for some other time.

Go on and achieve what you are looking for, good luck!!!.

Regards and enjoy the music.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Dear Volleyguy: Now that you are trying and give it time to the Sonicaps it will be good that you listen to the Sonicaps at a little higher volume ( due to its lower distortion ) maybe 2-3db higher than the Mundorf/Duelund and see what you hear.

Due to its low price it would be not a bad idea to buy the Sonicaps for the midrange too.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Dear Volleyguy: +++++ " I think the results are similiar as Tempoelectric. " +++++

Not exactly because the Tempo people speaks on Sonicaps on Electronics and the person on the link I posted rated on speaker croosover. Two very different applications with different " needs ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
Dear Volleyguy: With all my respect to you and for what you already posted ( caps's size, a higher price cap is better, parallel/series caps, no breacking time to the caps, caps combinations, inductors, taking the Tempo people like a reference, etc, etc )it is clear to me that you are a " Rockie " about caps inductors and speaker voicing.

What is a surprise to me is that with all that non-know how about suddenly you are an expert and give advise about to other Agoner's in many ways ( example ): +++++ This is something for all to consider when replacing caps make sure you get as big (dynamic) cap as before .... " +++++

IMHO in all what you are posted the only coherent statement is:
**** The Sonicaps to me are nuetral so the flaws only become apparent on direct comparison *******

You really don't know those " flaws " because for what you already posted you don't have any reference but other caps that maybe are the ones that has the " flaws ".

Undertow posted: +++++ As for sonicaps, well my opinion they are a cheap cap, and yes are a bit flat *******

he say is a bit flat and you that it is neutral, well IMHO both characteristics are highly desirous in any cap reagrdless of price ( the price means nothing about the quality performance in a cap. ).

From my experiences and the other people experiences the Mundorf are not a neutral-flat cap ( either the Duelund in lower level ) it adds colorations/distortions ( like the ones that you are hearing: dynamics, a false dynamics I have to say ).
Why don't like you the neutral-flat Sonicaps? well because show you the whole quality limitations in your system that for what you report about is not of a very high quality performance ( between other things the Scala's are not up to the task. ).

Why many people does not like a flat response in their audio systems? why they like the colored ( heavy colored/distorted ) system performance? because with a neutral-flat system only the good audio items designs can give them a pleasure and enjoying music, poor or mediocre designs ( everywhere in the audio chain ) show immediatly its " cooper " and IMHO that's what is happening to you.

The Sonicaps IMHO are a lot better of what you are reporting and more " honest " than the Mundorf or Duelunds.

This is what Atmasphere posted about caps of the same type like the MUN/DUEL that I agree about:

+++++ Paper and oil is nice, but in nearly all of them there is a slightly shelved high frequency character (mind you- not a rolloff) that causes them to have an overly delicate character. Nice for a lot of things but annoying if you play the complete range of music on your system. " +++++

+++++ Certainly they are more detailed than paper and oils with considerably more neutrality. Paper and Oil caps can develop electrical leakage over time that can damage other parts- +++++

both statements comes from someone that really knows what is talking about.

It is clear for me that your whole system ( through the Scalas ) are in trouble about quality performance and the Mundorf-Duelunds not only hide it but make heavier.

Of course, like I posted in my first post, that you like a colored/distorted performance nothing wrong with that but please don't give advise that a colored/distorted cap is a better choice than a neutral one.

IMHO any cap must be designed to add nothing and to be dead neutral as the materials permit it ( nothing is perfect ) and not to design caps with a precise signature performance ( colorations added ) like the Mundorfs-Duelunds that are frequency/performance manipulated on purpose.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Dear Stormen: Yes I only refer to oil and in my experience the sound is " oily ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
Dear Volleyguy: +++++ " All I did say is I agree with Steen. Bigger is better... " +++++

Only for your records: bigger means higher inductance that means higher distortion.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Dear Stormen: 10.37uf?, well that's great customer service: good.

regards and enjoy the music.
Dear Volleyguy: +++++
This proves Steen's theory that all things being equal you want a bigger cap. +++++

Everything equal a bigger cap has higher inductance than generate higher distortion. So that does not proves anything

You can take the MIT caps ( that I think were the first commercial caps with multiple caps design. No it was not Mundorf. ) with almost similar design that the Mundorf and are a not so good cap, some people say are a crap and I say is not so good.

As good as Sonicaps are ( IMHO ) they are better running some in parallel, example if you need 16uf then use four Sonicaps of 4uf. This estrategy is valid with almost any cap.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Dear Volleyguy: +++++ " read (on the net) it would be easy to replace the vintage caps as they were not very good compared to modern caps. I have found this simply to NOT be true " +++++

+++++ " I said I do want the dynamics of the original caps" +++++

Guess why? are the original better caps?, both statements are really learning when you answer the whys about you will understand the whole speaker crossover subject.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Dear Volleyguy: +++++ " Sorry Raul I do not understand what you are saying??? " +++++

Sorry to hear that because that's all about. Good luck !

regards and enjoy the music.