Can you imagine a world without vinyl?

CD is better than it has ever been.

LP Is better than it has ever been.

Both formats taken to their limit, LP is better. I don't think there is any doubt about this. Ask those with EMM labs and Rockport or EMM labs and Walker.

Paladin,

I admit to being a vinyl junkie - with 7 turntables, 11 cartridges & 8 arms along with 35K albums & 15K 45's.

I don't know how you have any room with that many LP's on hand !

Tell you what, I'm willing to come to your home and carry off a significant quantity of those old LP records, just because I'm a nice guy.

:^).

For me, it's largely about the economics of digital versus analog, and in this regard the digital formats win.

Absolutely, and there are thousands of titles on CD that will never be on LP.

Albertporter...That depends on the definition of "better".

Big opinions as always from Eldartford. This has become a multi thread, multi year experience with Dart seeking out LP forums to place his jabs.

Those that have both formats at state of the art agree LP is better, but that doesn't stop Eldartford (who never got it right) from remaining steadfast to his position.

I get really tired of the smart ass attitude and smug assertions, especially from someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

I guess I need to start going to every forum on digital and abuse everyone about their music instead of interjecting comments that digital has made headway.

Zaiks:

Let's just not get carried away from reality by all the rhetoric. No matter how much you want to expend on their playback, and no matter how much we might enjoy or fetishize them, records cannot faithfully transmit the sound of a mastertape. Digital has that possibility, as well as more relative practical advantages than you can shake a tonearm at.

I usually agree with you but you are 100% wrong, except for your comment that digital has made headway. I've posted that same response dozens of times here at Audiogon over the years.

The fact remains that LP provides better music.

If you disagree it's because you have not pushed both formats to the limit. If you wish to argue on the basis of money, digital wins.

If you wish to argue on the basis of absolute quality, cost no object, then LP wins. I find it interesting that those that argue against LP are always the ones that want to economize. Just speak the truth, you are unwilling to go to that much effort for the difference. That argument I will accept.

Well said. There is a cross-over point where spending less buys better music with digital, and more, better music with analog, at least for me.

I agree. I just don't understand why those of us that bust our ass to make analog work get hammered by the digital guys. I have owned top line CD players ever since they were introduced, I am a MUSIC guy.

I burns me up to push and work and save and make my system the VERY best it can be, no matter what it takes. I pride myself in that, the same drive that's won me tens of dozens of awards in my career of photography.

When I raced cars I held the track record. I did not get it by bullshitting, it took a lot of money and staying up the whole night before to make sure everything was 100%. Otherwise you saw the other guys tail lights.

So what's different about today? Everyone want's to have the "best" but only provided it's easy, cheap or convenient.

Dart:

Albertporter...Texas is the land of big everything...even, I notice, opinions! I thought we agreed that some aspects of digital, like convenience, to pick a non-controversial aspect, are "better" than vinyl

I have always stated that digital was more convenient, and that it was cheaper.

Do you remember our group member named Dave Kemp. You and he exchanged email's on the topic of classical music. Dave was found dead in his N. Dallas apartment three days ago. His brother says it was a heart attack and that he likely did not suffer too much.

Tomorrow night will be our first meeting without him. I'm probably not in the best spirit and certainly not in a friendly mood for attacks against analog.

From the article:

Even if the sound quality of vinyl contains some surface noise, as the static of records notoriously attracts dust, the imperfection is still welcome to many.

And

He also welcomes the unique sound of records. "The surface noise adds to lots," he said. "It gives it weight."

That's the first time I've read an article where noise and pops on an LP are described as beneficial. If my system matched their description I think the "romance" would disappear in about 15 minutes.

Mine is DEAD silent. We get maybe one or two clicks during an entire session that show up unexpectedly within the music. Otherwise the presentation from my turntable is identical to my digital (noise wise).

To single out the one or two clicks a night during a music session that spans 3.5 to 4 hours of LP swapping would be like test driving a Porsche Carrera and complaining about the experience because a gnat splattered on the wind screen.

Music is about emotion. I follow what works, I don't care how much labor it requires or how inconvenient is it. I just want to be in love with the music and analog delivers that emotion, goose bumps, chills and all.

When it's right, it tears at your emotions like the love of a good woman. Digital pulls at your ears but not your heart. Both can be exciting but only one of them sweeps away the world and delivers the goods.

Newbee

Upon reflection do you think that your 'over the top' self defense, even in the face of comments by others which are judgmental of your preferred format, might just generate in others with less experience or security a feeling that you are denegrating their choices.

My response was mostly at Eldartford who has attacked LP format almost since the day he arrived at Audiogon. Forgive me if the constant rubbing against my feelings occasionally cause me to cry out. If I were as persistent at visiting digital forums and criticizing everyone's choice, ragging on the flaws of digital and telling everyone it was the wrong way to listen to music, do you think someone might fly back at me with comments?

I think the answer is yes they would. Perhaps I should not defend analog and hide my feelings so those that don't choose it can feel like they have not missed anything.

Thomasheisig
When you say

I own DCS Equipment and I like it, but honestly, the Software is sooooo bad, it is frustrating. For my limited listening time it is a waste.

It sounds as if you agree with me that digital is good but not up to the quality of analog.

As for comments about music, I own 6K records, some CD's and even a few hundred open reel tapes. I even own an iPod. I am a music lover and will avail myself of music any way I can.

Just like dining out, given the choice I will dine at best quality restaurant, (Vinyl) it that's is not available I eat at a midline place (CD). If nothing else is available fast food has to do (iPod).

That does not change the fact that each is a different level of quality. Some people only eat fast food and some all the above.

Analog is superior on my system and of the tens of dozens of professionals I know in the audio business most prefer analog to digital. That may not make it a truth for everyone but it means I'm not unusual in my belief.

Macintosh makes a thin crust computer? Man, where have I been to miss that?

Reminds me of that old song, "Mammaries are made of this." Dean Martin's version was my favorite but always wondered how great it would be, performed by Dolly Parton.

Come to think of it, she may have included it in "Dolly Parton's biggesthits"

Raul:

until we don't have a true commercial 24/192 digital technology the analog one will be the better one in quality sound reproduction and I think that the analog stay here for ever or at least till we own LP's.

What we need is to " push " to the analog manufacturers devices to make a better design efforts to give us a better audio devices performers.

I agree, AND we must push the digital people to make available a digital format that exceeds anything analog offers.

I don't know how many times I've responded here at Audiogon with comments that digital could beat analog with technology available today. Problem is, downloading is a billion dollar business and LP and SACD together do not match it as a money maker.

We high end lovers are a limited market, and the big guys in the music business follow the money.

Analog is right here, right now and it works. Needle in groove has had 130 years to evolve, CD has had just over 20 years.

The best digital is still off in the future somewhere. No doubt there are some here at Audiogon that will live to see fabulous quality digital come to pass. However, I want the best sounding music tomorrow night when my group visits and I there are no big changes coming by then.

Nauga's are now on the endangered species list. UniRoyal stopped breeding them and they are all but gone now.

Nauga

If I imagine a world without vinyl, I imagine the death of high end audio.

How many audiophiles will we loose when it is finally (erroneously) accepted that Digital is better than vinyl?

I heard not without sadness a couple of months ago a friend tell me that he was trying to sell his beloved Leika camera with the complete set of lenses and could get nothing on Ebay, he even accepted the fact that digital photos in high res are much better than film.

This is partially true because in digital photography the quality output is in the hands of THE CREATOR who controls the resolution of THAT digital format.

Digital camera format, resolution and processing has substantially improved in quality every few months for the past 10 years. The digital format for our audiophile music system is approaching it's 22 birthday, still stuck in the same limited format controlled by music giants with no intention of catering to our need for great quality.

...imagine a world without vinyl?
Imagine a Teres wood turntable half burnt inside a dumpster in a NYC street, imagine your Triplanar arm stuck with no box in your sock drawer cause you didn’t have the guts to throw it away, you pick it up and a thread from your wool sock is stuck on the needle of your Koestu Urushi, you proceed to very carefully with shaking hands unwrap the thread from around the stylus when you notice it is completely ruined, imagine your 50 boxes of LPs out in the yard under the rain and you are looking at them with a tear in your eye while your grandsons are thowing stones at the boxes with who knows what inside.

Yes, that could happen when you're old enough to have grandkids. So go ahead and fool yourself into believing that the digital format is the best, and you give up the possibility of hearing how wonderful and natural real music can be. Perhaps you even know this, deep in your heart but like so many today, unwilling to make the commitment. Just attack what requires more work, attack what you don't have, attack what your not committed to with the sour grapes routine

You can fool yourself, holding in your hand a remote with a screen on it and all the music in those boxes is at your palm, alphabetically ordered by song by author by performer.

it's called an iPod or music server and it does sound better because most people no longer have a superior analog format to it compare to.

....you remember the ten times you rehooked your Micro Seiki 8000 only to notice after the first couple of minutes your new XXX internet player does sound better, you kinda remeber now that there were some details you enjoyed better on you TT only to realize again that for the eleventh time you might drag the air pump from the basement, lift the 40 pound platter and rehook the entire setup to be shown again that yes, it is not better that the new digital.

far better to tell yourself that what you have now is better. After all, it's SO much easier, SO much cheaper and SO very modern. It MUST be right format because it's what's easily available. There is no way the music giants would stick us with an inferior format just because it cost less and is controlled by two music companies. Later to come up with SACD in a half hearted effort because their patents were expiring and then left us holding the bag.

Did I paint a clear enough picture of a world without vinyl yet?

Yes you did, fortunately I don't have to live in that world

Hope I didn’t break Jsadurni's heart....because I did not correct his spelling errors, simply copied and pasted, so hang me....