All great responses. Buconero117 hit the nail right on the head, Older Folk are fighting a drop off in hearing ability that makes it harder to appreciate 'difference'. All true, except despite this, and being ignorant of the equipment he was listening to, he immediately knew that it was the recording, and not the equipment. Most people don't care, he didn't used to, now he does because he has a verifiable, and measurable awareness of everything that has been missing from current Digital Recordings. He never shuts up, telling his freinds and neighbors about the unusually good sounding Digital Recording that he has heard. He has had an epithany, an awakening, an awareness of just how bad current Digital Recordings really are. He couldn't possibly go back to MP3, and enjoy it, knowing that there is something out there that is a magnitude better in sound quality. It will eat him alive. Most people don't care, because they only hear a slight improvement with 2-Channel SACD/DVD-Audio, it simply isn't enough to push them over the edge.
As far as Multi-Channel vs. 2-Channel, this is still a two Channel Downmix. Two Channel Analog still does a good job of carrying the Harmonic Content of the Music. Two Channel Digital has never been able to do the same. We are not trying to reproduce 4 distinct channels here, what we are trying to do is to utilize the extra channels to carry the Harmonic Content that is missing out of the 2-channel Digital. Harmonic Content that would normally be there if this were a 2-channel Analog Recording instead of Digital. Recombining the Harmonic Content with the two main channels by Downmixing, puts us right back to approximating something resembling 2-channel Analog. Lacking the pops and ticks, might be something to sweeten the pot. If Downmixing, the end result is still going to be 2-channel regardless, not requiring extra Speakers and Amplifiers.
The preference that I am talking about, isn't multi-channel 24/96 DVD-A per se, but multi-channel 24/96 DVD-A Downmixed to 2-channels. The Harmonic Content needs to be recombined with the original signal in the Main Channels to overcome Digitals lack of Harmonic Content. Downmix could be used for Music, non-downmix multi-channel could be used for Movies with Surround Sound Audio effects. I am not sure about multi-channel SACD Surround Sound, the point would be extra channels of Harmonic Content Downmixed with Main Channels for Digital Music, Separate Multi-channels for Surround Sound in Movies. If you want the Multi-channel Surround Soundtracks for Movies in SACD, so be it.
" Why don't they make all of them sound as good "? doesn't sound like someone who doesn't care, it sounds like someone who 'used' to not care. Not caring is no longer written in stone, if it ever was I am certainly starting to see the cracks!
Lets try to keep our conversations out of the gutter, "out of the mouths of Babes" is just a figure of speech, it doesn't mean that I find my friend a Babe. Our Sound Quality is already in the Gutter, I am not going to allow my conversation to be dragged there as well! |
One last response. Dgarretson, everything you say may be true, but you make it all sound like its stagnate and non-transitory. People do have epithanies, radical changes in opinions and awareness, something that comes along that violently rocks our psychological boat. A slap in the face, a bucket of water, something that rocks us out of our complacency. We all psychologically respond to these inputs. Hearing something for the first time that sounds radically better than anything we have ever heard before, can certainly flip our Paradyne Boat upside down. I have seen it happen, people will respond to radical psychological overload of input, they can't help it- they would have to be almost inhuman not to respond! |
I remember when I was a teenager, everything had to be for the moment. My attention span was extremely short, and everything had to be about convenience in a rapidly fast paced Teenagers life. I eventually grew out of it, and started to appreciate things of high quality. I learned to have patience, and realized that some of the best things in life are worth waiting for. This hardly fits a Teenagers Paradyne, but my Teenage years were a passing phase. They are now nothing more than a distant memory. I believe that most Teenagers mature, they just need someone with the patience that knows exactly where the Teenagers maturity is inevitably heading. It would be an unusual Teenager indeed, that could appreciate a high end Stereo System. My advice, just wait untill they get a little bigger. |
Amazing that one can misspell a word, and yet someone still gets the correct meaning. Someone gets the accurate meaning in such a way, as to get the exact corrected version spelled properly. It is certainly not E.S.P., it must be coincidence. Once you are done flattering yourself, and breaking your arm patting yourself on the back, can we get back to the issue at hand? It is unfortunate that you will just have to suffer this fool gladly, on these Threads in Audiogon. Freedom of Speech doesn't selectively apply to only those with polished ego's! |
The Public did reject SACD/DVD-Audio, but not for the reasons that you believe. It wasn't an experiment in High Rez. Digital, the manufacturers simply did not have all of their ducks in a row with sound quality prior to releasing SACD/DVD-Audio. They pretty much made the same mistake when CD was first released. Both of these technologies were premature as far as supporting a High Quality Sound Format. The Public was taken to the cleaners, with the supposed improved Sound Quality of CD. The Public giving the benefit of the doubt to the technological prowness of CD, presuming improved Sound Quality would follow. They are still waiting for the 'Perfect Sound Forever', despite decades of development of the CD Format. Some major improvements were made, but the older Format of Analog still sounded better. How much longer is the Public supposed to wait on the development of the CD Format.
SACD/DVD-Audio came along, prematurely again, and this time the Public wasn't going to give the New Format the benefit of the doubt. The Sound of SACD/DVD-Audio was judged as being only slightly better than CD, the Public not wanting to go down the same path of a supposed improved New Format just like when CD was new. The point isn't that the New Formats only sound slightly better than CD, but that the comparison Format of CD still sounds poorly when compared to the best Analog Standards. What does this say about the Sound Quality of SACD/DVD-Audio? It sounds only slightly better than CD, but it still doesn't measure up to Analog, an older Format. There has been three attempts at New Formats, CD/SACD/DVD-Audio, with 30 years of development in Digital Recording, and they still can't get it right! Three Strikes, and the American Public have decided 'your out'! Sounds only slightly better, means that the American Public knows that Manufacturers can do alot better, the Public demanding more! The American Public is unwilling to invest in a New Format, unless there is an improvement in Sound Quality that atleast approaches that of the best Analog. They simply feel cheated by decades of CD, and they are not about to be cheated again by SACD/DVD-Audio, with only a slight improvement in Sound Quality. They want more, not less Sound quality. If less was the goal, then everyone would be chucking their Records and CD's, for SACD/DVD-Audio Disks! That is simply not reality, SACD/DVD-Audio are going out of business, because no one will buy them. Slightly better, is not good enough! Better to go without, than to settle for slightly better! |
I give up! The Recording Industry is Steam-Rolling over Sound Quality, as the rest of us are wrapped up in petty bickering! I can just hear us complaining with each other as we all are being squeezed flatter than a pancake!
" Look, it's K-K-K-Kenny, coming to K-K-K-Kill me! "
I have never heard a more apathetic, and nit-picking bunch! Oh, it's just the Market! Oh, we are not the Demographic that the Recording Industry is interested in! It's a hopeless cause this, it's a hopeless cause that! As if we all existed in a vacuum, or perhaps the World exists. and we are the vacuum! If you want to suck, do it on your own time! Me, I am going to find some way of nailing the Recording Industries carcass to the wall! No more crappy sounding CD's, no more slightly better than crappy sounding SACD/DVD-Audio! Sound Quality has hit rock bottom, even the sound on movie DVD's sounds three times better than CD, or hasn't anyone noticed! If you want to create a Market that leaves everyone hungry and starving for Sound Quality, then attach a leash to your neck! Me, I am going down standing on two feet! I refuse to be the Recording Industries Dog to be kicked around like a Mutt! This is one Demographic that is going to take MP3, and shove it deep in the Recording Industries back door! If you want to bury yourself in apathy, then get the hell out of my way! If you want a steady diet of nothing left, but MP3, constipated with it to the point that you would need a lifetime of exlax to survive, knock yourself out! I am not going there, and I am certainly not following anyone else there either! Just because everyone else is jumping off of a cliff......Awwww whats the use! Is it going to take an Emancipation Proclamation from the Recording Industry so that we are no longer their b__ch? Is there anyone out there that is not a Pig feeding from the Trough of the Record Industry? If there is, stand up and be counted as a Human Being! Surely there is someone out there with some pride in themselves! Even a 65 year old Novice can hear the difference, are you supposed to be part of the Demographic that can't? |
I think that the action plan should be to steam roll over those who are apathetic enablers of the Recording Industry. Lets see how they like it for a change! I can see that your apathetic action plan is to do nothing! I can already see how that is working out, thank you very much! Sound Quality is in the toilet, congradulations at your accomplishment, you must be proud! The view all the way from the bottom is quite impressive. Seems to me that I have got nothing to loose, and the only direction left is up. The first step, in any action plan, when in a quagmire, is to stop digging! I can see by your response, that you are not ready to set down the shovel yet! You, and just about everyone else! Well, that is the updated post! I guess the next detail of this, Highway to Hell, action plan ride of yours, is up to you! God help us, where do I get off of this Train? Under your action plan, can I still demand my Soul back from the Recording Industry, or are we all just damned? Why don't you keep me posted on that little detail? Will the Ninth level of Hell, have all of us eating and digesting CD/SACD/MP3 for all eternity? How many more crappy sounding Formats is it going to take before you realize that you are being hunted as an apathetic Prey! The first action plan should be to erase that Target off of your back! Just a suggestion, Cheers!
P.S.-"Another fine mess you have gotten us into"! |
You think that Recording Industry Executives are welcome to reasonable, thoughtful. and thorough dialog with anyone toward finding a solution to better recording quality? You have got to be kidding me! Can you listen to yourself? Sounds like a Flee trying to negotiate with Darth Vader, trying not to tick him off too much before being splattered! Tickling the Dragons Tail are we, sounds pretty touchy/feely to me! Just how does a Deer negotiate with a Hunter, trying to prevent him from pulling the trigger? I will say it one more time, how many more crappy Formats does it take before you realize that you are the apathetic Target of the latest shell game? What is the point of even considering an action plan, when the attitude is to give up without even concidering trying? Simple question, why don't you even want to concider trying? Seems to me that it is going to take every ounce of effort in my action plan, just to get anyone to even concider a change in direction! Attitude might be the first step, ya think? In fact, it seems to me that attitude is 98% of the problem, it is obvious that it is the biggest obstacle! You have certainly proven that to me! Your attitude seems to be to roll out the big red carpet for higher Record Industry Profits, and degrading Sound Quality. Must you be so enthusiastic about making sure that carpet is properly cleaned, pressed, and vacuumed? You can't even bring yourself to admit that the Recording Industry really pulled a fast one over you, in the last three mutated, and malformed Formats that they have pawned on you! Is Ego part of the problem? Can you set aside your Ego for five minutes, and take a clear look at what the Recording Industry has recently done to Americas prestigious History in Recorded Music? If I can get you to do that, gee, how much more action plan do you require of me, for moving a mountain? It is a lot of heavy lifting, and I could use some help! The flood waters are already at our necks, and you want a reasonable/thoughtful/thorough plan before anyone should take action! How about swimming for your life, if self preservation is an instinct that you possess! |
Yeah, I know, it is hard trying to get one person to care. Harder still, a multitude of enough people to even base a plan on. Part of any plan has to be to change peoples attitude, and even admit that a problem even exists. Plans can be based on the participation, attitude, and input from a multitude of people. What is the point if you can't even change the attitude of even one person? I just can not stand the idea that the Recording Industry wins, therefore we lose, where is the plan in that! Any plan would be better than just rolling over, and doing nothing! Even failure would be a better option, than just giving up! O.K.- your arguements are not lacking persuasiveness, your apathy wins me over! I will concede the point, do nothing is the best option, allowing some of our best loved Music deteriorate under Corporate Profits and Greed makes it easier for me as well! So why do I feel the desperate need to take a shower, I just took one an hour ago? I guess I will just have to get used to that slimy feeling, can't seem to scrub it off! Never thought that I would even have to try to persuade someone to save their own neck, or act in their own best interest, but there it is-literally cutting ones own nose off to spite their face! If that is the only exercise in futility that everyone prefers, so be it! I'm through! |
Alright, I am not through, had you going for a minute! Imagine the Recording Industry as the Prosecution in a Court of Law, the American Buying Public as the Defendant, and supposing for a moment that I was the Defense Attourney. Now I am trying my best to represent my clients best interest, and save his own neck. My Client, Apathetic to no end, tries at every turn to pull out the rug, and undermine my case at every turn. Demands that the best Defense is to do nothing, don't try, just roll over! The Prosecution observes this with glee, and sees the door wide open to drive a Semi-Truck through! My Client simply rolls out the Red Carpet! Now, I am so heartbroken that everyone feels sooo Empathetic to boosting the Recording Industries Profits, even if it means cutting our own throats in Sound Quality to help them out in any way we can! This is certainly very Charitable, and conciderate of everyone! What is this, serving yourself up to Jack-The-Ripper because you feel sorry for him? I admire the sacrifice, even though I am kind of astonished at the plea to join in that sacrifice! You have got to be kidding me! What I want is suggestions, alternatives, plans, input to alter this condition, because your current plan is completely unacceptable(who are we kidding, it is completely nuts!). I will not accept physically being gutted by the Recording Industry like a Pig, simply because there is a lack of a plan for an alternative! I suggest you get off of your apathetic __s, and find one, because I refuse, unlike you, to be gutted! Hey, everyone, you don't have to fall on your Swords for the sake of Recording Industries Profits!
"But we don't have a plan for an alternative, therefore we just have to go through with it"!
Who do you think you are kidding, F-i-n-d a-n A-l-t-e-r-n-a-t-i-v-e, you have nothing else to loose! Perhaps you prefer Death to improved Sound Quality, well your Recording Industry Masters couldn't be happier. They feed their Profits on your Apathy, why do you want to offer them your Blood as well? What exactly is your exsisting plan, to start sacrificing Virgins to the Great Recording Industry Gods! Who wants to be first in line to offer up their Daughters, after all, according to you, it's a Priveledge. No Sacrifice is too great for the Recording Industries Profits! This is the status quo you prefer, because you are too apathetic to even try to help come up with an alternative plan? Well, I guess that the Daughter has just got to go then, no one else has a plan, gonna miss her! Damn those Demographics, it's all their fault!
Absolute Pure Sociopathic behavior, heavy on the Masochistic and Sadistic Elements. Come up with an alternate plan other than beating your own backs to a bloody pulp for the sake of Recording Indusry Profits. Start demanding higher Sound Quality Standards, what a clever Plan that is! What have I got to do, try to convince you that you might save a little Blood that way? |
Now I am past the Event Horizon, there is no going back, God save my Soul! |
He also gave me free will, to take risks to lose my Soul if I so choose. I haven't always made the best of choices in this regard, perhaps I am not the only one. Pushing the Envelope, going past an Event Horizon without any chance of ever going back, is probably not the best of choices. It is sort of like God saying, "Now you have really done it, and you knew the risks, you are on your own"! |
Yeah, you are right. Best to spend Tens of thousands of dollars on a Stereo System than to spend even one dime more on something decent to play on such a behemouth! Bragging rights, hey, garbage in-garbage out! Who do you think you are kidding? Instead of a course in anger management, it would seem to me that most need serious Phsycological help with deep seated apathy bordering on suicidal tendencies. It is a big deal when a Product is being Monopolized, while having its Quality widdled down, its price being boosted along with profits. I keep on trying to tell everyone, that you are suppossed to be in the business of demanding higher value for the money. Something that the American Public seems to get with other commodities like houses, and cars and such. They used to get it when Records were popular, what a slide down hill it has been. The American buying Public has definitely come a 180 degrees in attitude towards Sound Quality since then. I think that it is reasonable to ask why? Since I have only one avenue to purchase Music, seems that I am along for the ride. It would be so much easier to accept your advice, drink the kool-aid and become lulled into another Reverend Jim Jones victim. Sounds peaceful and quiet, but then I see hundreds of Recording Industry Vultures gathering on branches. They caw, as they are looking for something to feed on. One of them swoops down on a carcass, and plucks an eye out of a decaying Skull! Sorry, Mrtennis, you get the kool-aid in the face, I sure as hell not drinking it! |
I am going to say one last word on this subject, and that is it. Those of you who have decided to toss in the towel, and actually join in the Recording Industries attempts to cheapen Sound Quality to boost profits, are just confusing the Hell out of the rest of us struggling to get decent Sound Quality Value for the money! Is this your idea of, if you can't beat them, then join them? I haven't even heard from one person who even claims to represent the Recording Industry itself, it is obvious that they don't feel a need to do so! They have so many so called Audiophiles, brainwashed to do their dirty work for them! It's a hopeless cause, we are not the marketing demographic the Industry is interested in-it's all B.S. It is propaganda put out by the Recording Industry itself, they don't want you to be making judgement calls on Sound Quality yourself, and possibly cut into their Profits! It is conveniently profitable for them, if you pick up the apathetic baton and continue to pass the lie along! Your apathy is their greatest business gain! They make money off of you believing that your purchasing decisions have no real market value. That you have to just settle for whatever New crappy sounding Format that they want to dole out to you! I wouldn't even care, except that these Vultures are feeding off of your apathetic carcass, and pretty soon I will be next! Of course it is in my self interest, to persuade you that you do have value. It is unfortunate that you have chosen the Recording Industries version, that you don't have any real Market Value as a Human Being at all! Why you don't see how they benefit, and stuff their own pockets with more Profits, by you putting yourself down and cheapening your own Value! Imagine that, a Cow that not only marches itself to the slaughter house, but takes the gun and slaughters itself on cue! I am sure that the Masters of the slaughter house are astonished at their own good fortune, and are very pleased that they don't have to make any effort on their own part at all! Your apathy is a win, win situation for them, the cruxible is a lose, lose situation for you! My challenge to you is to dare you to stop making yourself a looser! Is that making a mountain out of a mole hill, sure, why not! I think you are worth it, I certainly know I am! If that makes me delusional, needing anger management, Don Quiote fighting windmills, call the guys with the white straight jackets. I am fighting for my own self worth, how about you? Do you really want the Recording Industry determining your own self worth? You will never get your soul back from them! |
I'm as cool as a cucumber, my challenge still stands. I dare anyone to stop making yourself a loser, to stop devalueing yourself for the sake of Recording Industry Profits. You are not just bringing yourself down, you are bringing the rest of us down with you. Start taking some pride in yourself and live, stop feeding the Recording Industry Vultures with your dead carcass of apathy. They don't need your help, they are fat enough already. It is waaaaaayyyyy past time for everyone to cut the strings of these Puppet Masters! Contrary to the latest intellectual thought, that coincidentally stuffs the pockets of your Recording Industry Masters, you do not exist in a vacuum! You do have purchasing power! Just how much exactly have you spent on your Stereo System, Just a tad more than the Teenager on his latest MP3 Player? Yet, according to your Recording Industry Masters, as far as the Market is concerned, you don't count! It is nothing more than an illusion, a shell game, smoke and mirrors, anything to get you to devalue your own self worth! It even sounds intellectual, but there is money to be had in this exercise in intellectual apathy, and it is not you that will be making it! Losing it is the likely outcome, don't you think that it is time, that you ask yourself, who you are losing it to? Devalueing Sound Quality cost you Money! Devalueing your own Market self worth, and Purchasing Power, costs you Money! Applying an apathetic intelectual exercise to yourself, costs you Money! Who stands to Profit, if not your Recording Industry Masters? Three Digital Formats have been introduced in the last 30 years, not one of them sounds as good as the earlier Analog Record. By anyones account, with anything else, these things would have been sent back to the Manufacturer as defects, a long-long-long time ago! |
If it is truly my valuable energy, then I can waste it anyway I please! What I don't understand, Mrtennis, is the huge concern that is invested in the High End Quality of a $10,000.00 Stereo System, and the huge disparity when compared to the rather trivial concern of Sound Quality of Recordings! There is a gap as wide as the Grand Canyon here, that you say doesn't exist? Is the idea to spend 10-50 thousand dollars on a System to take that cheap CD/SACD/DVD-Audio disk and make it sing like a Mercury Living Presence Record? At some point, you have to face reality! Gravity is very real, you are not living in the Land of OZ, and you are not going to get one over, "Garbage in-Garbage Out" no matter how much you spend! Why spend so much on such a boondoggle of a Stereo System, just to feed it trivial Sound Quality Recordings? What in the World is your point, stick a Volkswagon Engine in a Lamborgine Coutach, now you have got to sell it, sell it! The problem is, Mrtennis, is that you are indeed buying it, hook, line , and sinker! That is not the end of the problem, Marketwise, you are dragging the rest of us down with you! You are even willing to make so-called intellectual excuses to protect your investment in your collection of High Quality (SIC) Digital Recordings! You are not ready to admit that your Recording Industry Masters have stabbed you in the back with CD/SACD/DVD-Audio! We are all supposed to pretend to ignore that knife sticking out! Are you really going to make me twist it, just to prove to you that it really is there? I would rather much, just take it out, but you and your Recording Industry Masters would probably just hammer me for it!
Let me see, should the priority be on the Garbage in, or on the Garbage out? I don't know, I would say Garbage in, but what do I know? I have my priorities screwed up! I guess you could start with Garbage out, and work your way backwards, that is if you have $20,000.00 to throw away on a Stereo System that you can't quite get it to sound right!
No Heart Attack yet, don't fret, I will continue to expend more energy working on it! |
Oh, I am surely interested in who is stabbing you in the back! You think that I am going to turn my back on them-nuts! I have every right to be concerned, and watch out for my own back, thank-you very much! Not that I need your permission! Now there is a Mafia Code of Silence for the Recording Industry! Hey, Mrtennis, this is reality, not a Godfather Movie! Unless you plan on putting a horses head in my bed! You gonna break my legs too, Vinnie! Keep your freinds close, but keep your enemies closer! Whoaaa- I'm scared! |
-instead of complaining about something, do something. if it is beyond one's control, complaining won't change a thing-
Point well taken, unless one uses the excuse, 'if it is beyond one's control' as an excuse to do nothing, to not even try. How do you know it is beyond your own control, have you even tried it, has anyone? Of course not, because we are all too busy swallowing the apathy pills being pushed by our Recording Industry Drug Dealers! They butter their bread with your masochistic devaluing of your own self worth! Why do you want to continue feeding them, they are soon going to be done with your empty shell, and start looking for a new supply-us! Attitude is 90% of the equation in determining one's own Market Self Worth! The Recording Industry already has your 90% in their back pocket, and they didn't even have to lift a finger to get it! Why are you selling yourself so cheap, and claiming as an intellectual exercise that we should all do the same? Because misery loves company?
It is not beyond one's control, there are already cracks in the wall. Records are coming back in response to the miserable performance of the CD, just because the quality/price is not up to par, it is still a response. Even SACD/DVD-Audio, despite the Market attempt to rob everyone blind with the lack of Sound Quality in these New Formats, is still a response to the lack of existing Sound Quality. It is a good thing that the American Public saw through the sharade of SACD/DVD-Audio, demanding instead a real substantial improvement in Sound Quality! They are hungry for it, your Recording Industry Masters, Mrtennis, are starving them of it! Your Masters don't want a huge expense at having to produce it! You, Mrtennis, are their best ally. You stand in the way of the rest of us getting some decent Sound Quality for the money! I am just confused as to why you don't even want to take the chance of getting some of the same? Don't wait for the translation, Mrtennis, answer the question! |
Persuading you, Mrtennis, IS doing something! Persuading others, IS NOT beyond one's control! |
Dgarretson, again you are focused on the Specific Components, the Garbage Out side of the equation. What about the Garbage In? Why don't we pay as much attention to the Garbage In as we do to Specific Components? Just because, "They shoot horses don't they" doesn't mean you have to eat their waste products, trying to convince me and everyone else that it can be quite satisfying! I suppose that it might be, if that is the only thing that you have ever had your entire life! I suppose that you can call me a liar, when I say that there are better tasting things in this World. Yeah, I know, how do I know if I have never tried it (nuts)!
You know, both issues have a common thread, what is in question isn't the price you are paying for either, but the level of Quality you will be receiving for that price. In both Recording Industry Formats and Gov't Funded Health Care, the Quality seems to be a blank slate. Convenient, for someone who wants to write anything that they damn well please in there. Why not just have Congressmen serve as greedy CEO's of Insurance Companies at the same time, it is the same damn thing! Someone with twice the Power to screw you out of your Health Care Benefit, no matter how much you pay! Trusting Congressmen over greedy Insurance CEO's, out of the frying pan, and into the fire!
You can start by changing your attitude, Mrtennis, and trust me, that is doing a whole Hell of alot! I think that, that is just about all you can handle right about now! For the rest of us, my suggestion is to pressure the Recording Industry into accepting the Standard proposed at the beginning of this thread, as the Standard for all recordings! Utilize the two extra Channels to put back the Harmonic content that is missing from all Digital Recordings. Provide for a 4 Channel, if the user wants it, provide for a 2 Channel Downmix to get the best out of Digital Recordings. Don't tell me it can't be done, It already has been done by an Overacheiving Recording Tech, with one particular Recording. I can listen to it as I am typing this! Part of the problem is that we have all been trained to try and listen to the Music signal as unaltered as possible. This presumes that the Signal is perfect to begin with, but once it has been digitized it is completely bleached of all of its Harmonic Content! The damage is too severe, listening to this signal in its purest form is bound give anyone splitting headaches. If Downmixing of a Surround Sound Version puts back the Harmonic Content in spades, how dare we alter the original signal! We dare because it is a step in the right direction, out of the Rabbit Hole, not further into it!
The first step, as I have said so many times before, is to change everyones attitude about Sound Quality. Any Plan, Mrtennis, of course is going to fall flat on its face if you can't persuade anyone to change their attitude! How can you hope to change anyones attitude if you can't even change your own! It seems to me that being apathetic, not caring, and being satisfied, is a plan that is working quite effectively! It is just working fine for your Recording Industry Masters and their bottom line, at your expense! It is working so well, one has to ask, just imagine what doing the opposite can do? |
Point well taken, Mrtennis. Didn't mean to sound like all 100% of Digital Recordings are horrible. It is just that when you listen to this Diana Krall Multi-channel DVD-Audio in downmix mode, it will hit you like a brick wall, "So this is what has been missing from Digital for 30 years, even the 2-channel SACD/DVAudio"! Has anyone even tried this Disk, on a separate Universal Player, in Surround Sound or Downmix Mode? Friend of mine tried this Disk with the Pioneer going thru his Stereo System and Speakers(Downmix mode). Said that Diana Kralls voice sounded too forward and bloated. Don't quite get the same effect with RS-1's. He had to concede, however, that this Digital Downmix Recording has the most Harmonic Content of any Digital Recording that he has ever heard! The Harmonics seem to trail off into infinity, the Soundstage is twice as large than any Digital Recording than I have ever heard, even 2-Channel SACD! It kind of took me by surprise, it almost sounded like listening to a Record! You don't get that with any other Digital Recording that I am familiar with!
Small Labels certainly do a better job than the Mass Produced Recording Industry Labels. The problem is that it is the Big guys who own all of the Original Master Analog Recordings. If there is a certain Pop Music Artist that you like to listen to, it is the Huge Recording Industry that usually owns the rights to it. That is the main reason why you won't find most Popular Music being released on Audiophile Recordings. Someone is putting the big squeeze on! It is certainly not to benefit us! |
Everyone has been harping on a plan. IMO it is nothing more than Red Meat for the so-called intellectual Nay-saying Dogs to feed on! They shoot Audiophiles, don't they? Here is the Plan, Bon-Apetite Adolph!
1. Try to establish if Downmixes of Multi-Channel SACD
or High Rez. DVD-Audio have the greater potential
for Sound Quality. Everyone could sample, everyone
could vote untill a concensus is formed.
2. Try to contact Recording Engineer that developed the
Format for everyones favorite type of Downmix. Share
Details of how this recording was made with other
Audiogon members. Inquire about any plans for future
similar Recordings.
3. Contact Manufacturing Company that released this
Recording. Send a petition showing interest in this
Company making more of the same type of Recordings,
utilizing this same format.
The bottom line, is that the Idea for the Original Recording Format was not only sold by a clever Recording Technician, it was also already bought by a Recording Company. They are just waiting to see if there is actually a Market Response. I am sure that part of the reason for the lack of decent Sound Quality, is that no-one even bothers to ask for it. It is sort of like the prettiest girl at the Prom who never gets asked out on a date, everyone thinks that they are not good enough for her. It is your choice to be one of those Idiots, I am asking you not to. You know, if everyone believes that they have no say in Sound Quality, then the illusion becomes reality. Everyone believes that they are not good enough. The door opens wide for the opportunity for one lucky Son-of-a-_____, to actually ask the Girl out. The rest of us Idiots are left wondering, what the Hell does she see in him? Lousy Sound Quality in the next Format doesn't have to be a self-fullfilling Prophecy! That is, unless, you prefer self-mutilation. It doesn't have to be that way! Who is going to be the first one, with enough courage, to step across the dance floor to ask the Girl out? |
No-one! Then the Girl never gets asked out, and we all become part of the Idiots suffering under a self imposed Illusion! An opportunity for better Sound Quality, quickly slips away, because no-one will grasp it in time! This is the Audiophiles Plan for better Recorded Sound Quality, delude yourself into believing that a lesser Format will have adequate Sound Quality! And the next lesser Format after that, same thing? Why bother calling yourself an Audiophile, why not just call yourself a Beggarphile! I don't want to be an Audiophile anymore, because I don't want to be a self imposed Loser anymore! Audiophile- someone who spends an inordinate amount of money on Audio Gear, while looking for the cheapest, and lowest quality Format to play on it! An Oxymoron-heavy on the Moron! Someone who desperately seeks lower quality Formats, while obsessively chases ever Higher Quality Audio Gear to play it on! An Enigma, a Contradiction, a fool who enjoys and embraces futile attempts to improve on ever lower Quality Formats! I have decided, that these words will no longer pertain to me! |
Again with the Hardware, as a convenient distraction from the severe lack of Sound Quality in the Format! Lets be real, Mapman, dropping 10s of thousands of dollars on any System, in a vain attempt to make up for the severe lack of Sound Quality in the Format itself! Suprise that one finds yourself actually admiring how pretty, and expensive the System looks, as opossed to actually listening to it! Format drags your $10,000.00 System down to the point of sounding like garbage, to the point that you can't even stand listening to it! You only just show how expensive it looks to your friends, you don't dare play it for them! You can't stand listening to it yourself, you just use it for Eye Candy, or for Expensive bragging rights! Again, you harp on the Name, the Hardware, the Cost, all at the expense of even concidering the slightest increment in increase of Sound Quality in the Format itself. What is exactly your point, you want garbage for 10s of thousands, I can give you all of my garbage for half that, and even save you the expense of $5000.00. You don't drop 10s of thousands of dollars into a SOTA audio system, you don't drop 50s of thousands of dollars into a Digital System in a vain attempt to make up for that Formats shortcommings, you simply don't drop the ball on the Manufacturer spoon feeding you the next garbage Sounding Format! It is not the drop of 10s of thousands, but the drop in the Quality of the garbage that you are feeding this behemoth. No amount of money spent on the back end, will ever make up for the amount of garbage that is being force fed on the front end! You can go ahead and drop 5s, 10s, 20s, 50s, 100s, and it will only make the smallest increment of improvement, if any at all! If you are going to spend that much, why not just buy your own Record Company, for crying out loud, save yourself the money, and stand a half-wits chance of actually getting some better Sound Quality? So we spend so much on this stuff, just to look at, and not to listen to! Well, that is a helpful peice of information, when next deciding to drop 10s of thousands of dollars on a Luxury Audio System! |
What is your point, Dgarretson, of even trying to ride any false peaks or summit, with a 500 Lb. weight on your back? A 500 Lb. weight of-CD-SACD-DVD-Audio Formats dragging you down! Your solution is a $10,000.00 Bike to handle the extra load, we dare not even concider any other possible solution, gotta protect our ego and bragging rights of our $10,000.00 personal Moneypit at all costs, even at the expensive cost of Sound Quality! Am I reading this book correctly?
Cajunpepe, do you have a serious prejudice problem, trying to fit all people into your own broad brush perceptions, even those that you have never met or don't even know. All of those Old Guys (insert any minority) are all the same, even the ones that you haven't met! I do take your pigeon-hole-ing seriously, knowing that there must be some other serious character flaw that must explain it! I suppose that all Old Guys are supposed to wear a white T-shirt,plaid shorts, black socks, and sandals, and I still can't understand why this Man would treat you with such contempt! Perhaps someone needs to draw you a picture of your own image in a mirror, and have you take a serious look at it!
Life can be very short, for the fool who drops 10-20 thousands of dollars on a Stereo System, in a vain attempt for a slight improvement on a severely flawed and damaged Format! Lets add some more zero's on this amount, on our next System, in a vain attempt to make MP3 sound as good (sic) as CD/SACD/DVD-Audio. There is certainly some ego, and bragging rights, to be squeezed out of this endeavor, and if the rest of us gets screwed with the Sound Quality of MP3, too bad! MP3 is good enough, let them eat Dogs__t! Just because not everyone can afford Hundreds of thousands of dollars in Equipment, for a slight improvement in MP3, tough s__t! I suppose that some of us can afford a third Mortgage! This seems like dejavue all over again, like the day that CD was officially released, ever wonder why? How dare we even concider any improvement in any Format, and voiding the necessity of spending Tens of thousands on Equipment Hardware Upgrade Band-aids for a severely flawed Format! I must be out of my mind, to even concider the garbage in side of this equation, of course I have Money to burn compensating on the garbage out! Life is too short- to be burning Money this way- and that is a serious problem, Cajunpepe! With Audiophile friends like these, who needs greedy Recording Industry Enemies? |
The only issue I have, is understanding the principle of, Garbage in-Garbage out! It is a principle that is sooooo simple, even a Cave Man can understand it! Oh-My-God, I never even realized who I was talking to! How was I supposed to know that you guys still existed? No wonder you guys are so frustrated with your Car Insurance, and your Stereo's! Now I understand, it explains sooo much on sooo many levels! It is like trying to explain Quantum Physics to a Neanderthal, no-wait-I didn't mean to say it that way! I know you guys are sensitive, don't get mad! Just trying to use some Stone-age humor, no-wait-that didn't come out right either! Awww-I give up! The Hell with it! I suppose now we know why you never need a peticure, my knuckle dragging friend!
My only real issue, Pepe, is that as long as you are dragging yourself down(and whatever bodily appendage along with it), stop dragging me down with you! Have you got it, my soon to be extinct Neandophile friend, not to be extinct soon enough!
That also goes for any other Extreme Masochistic, Self- degratiating, So-called Intellectual Neandophile out there as well. Your days are numbered, you will soon be extinct, time for you to evolve! I suggest that you start trying to develop into a more complicated life form, one that actually recognizes. and appreciates improved Sound Quality with better Formats! Your knuckle dragging, is dragging the
evolution of the whole Human Race down to a slow crawl! If you don't want to move on, then get the Hell out of the way of the rest of us! |
In case anyone is interested, I have just sent an E-mail to Matt Graber, point of contact for Capitol Mastering at Capitol Studios, Hollywood, CA. You know, the place where the DIANNA KRALL: THE LOOK OF LOVE DVD-Audio Recording was mastered. I was just inquiring about the Record Mastering Process used, and if any more Artist Releases were planned in the same Format. You say, why would such an important and busy Man even bother to respond, well my Neandophile friends, I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt, and find out for myself. Us more evolved, and complex Life Forms like to keep our possibilities, and options open. It is how we learned to change and adapt, instead of remaining stagnate to the point of extinction. If you prefer to drag your knuckles off of the ground, and log in for a response, that is your choice! If you prefer to continue to de-evolve with your MP3 plugged into your ear, I will be sure to dig up your bones and put them on display in a Museum! |
One more thing, as long as we are on the Evolution subject. It is obvious that many on this Thread, have sold their soul for the sake of De-Evolving Format Sound Quality to its lowest common denominator. This goes against the Nature of things, since Evolution is a process that more advanced and complex life forms are developed, not de-constructed. It is obvious that the Evolution of Format Sound Quality is being de-constructed, this will eventually have disasterous results. Either a Species tries to stay ahead of the Evolution Curve, or it simply coasts along and begins to lag far behind. What happens from this Stagnate or even reversal of advancement, well, just ask the Neanderthals or the Dinosaurs. Oh, wait, they are no longer around to ask, there it is! Extinction is never pleasant, and I simply cannot make it any more pleasant for you! You want to De-Evolve or De-Construct the Evolution of Format Sound Quality with ever more worse sounding Formats, you can get away with this for a while. Eventually, Mother Nature will catch up to you and shake you out of your complacency, or make you regret you ever existed! De-Evolution makes no sense, and will not work! How can I convince you that walking on all fours again (CD,SACD,DVD-Audio,MP3), is really a bad Idea? Sound Quality, like all things, must advance and Evolve. You go against Mother Nature at your own risk (EXTINCTION)! Survival of the fittest, is never a matter of convenience, and Extinction is never convenient! |
I'm going to stand on my previous posts too....my main issue is you, Cajunpepe. What makes you think that you can throw back advancements in Sound Quality back to the Stone Age? Do you really honestly believe that no-one will notice? How much longer are you going to delude yourself, that no-one will care? My eyes, and ears, are wide open. MP3-really-Cajunpepe-really! If you really believe that walking on all fours is a better Idea, you are not going to understand the words that I am speaking! |
Egads! I am talking to self degraciating Cavemen! I never even referenced De-Evolutionary Music! What I was saying, is that any attempt to apply a De-Evolutionary practical application to the Sound Quality in worser sounding newer Formats, puts all of Homo Sapiens back in the Stone Age! That includes me, and I don't want to go there! How would "Devo" even work trying to play rocks and clubs for Musical Instruments! You see, it doesn't have any real practical application! Yet, you persist in trying to practically apply a never ending lower Standard of Sound Quality with each New Format for the sake of convenience! What is next, rubbing two sticks together for Music, or are we going to have some super Technically advanced machine to do it for us? It is still rubbing two sticks together, and it still sounds like crap! I know, lets spend $50,000.00 on a supped up Amplifier and Speakers, so we can hear our sticks rubbing together in Super High Fidelity! It is still two sticks rubbing together, and it still sounds like crap! Do you have any other Mega, Mega-Buck High End Audio Gizmo or Wigit that can make our two sticks rubbing together sound any better? No doubt, you will sell your Wife, your Daughter, your Son, your Mother, your Father, to afford this wigit. Anything to avoid even the slightest concideration of an alternative Format, other than rubbing two sticks together! This is madness, it is unhealthy, it is self destructive, it is cutting off two arms/two legs/ and a nose to spite your face! A Jelly Fish has more mental awareness to avoid this exercise in futility, and it doesn't even have a backbone! Is there anyone out there that even has a Spine, I suppose that a Brain attached to it is asking too much! Is there anyone who even knows how to negotiate, to haggle, to shop for the better quality at a lower price? The first step, is to stop dragging the sharp end of that knife across your arm a hundred times. What is your point in self imposed masochistic mutilation? O.K.- you are not worthy of that next C.D., you are not worthy of that next SACD Disk, you are not worthy of that next DVD-Audio Disk, you are not worthy of MP3, now write it a hundred thousand times to make sure that you have got your mind straight! Have you got your mind straight yet! You have better get your mind straight in a hurry! Is this what you are trying to tell me to do? You must be out of your minds to think that I am going to play along with that! I have a backbone, and there is even a Brain attached to it. I can also think, therefore I am, and I am also aware of my own self worth! How about you? |
Evolve, Dgarretson, Evolve! You have to learn to walk on land, if you ever hope to grow ears to appreciate Music. Going in the opposite direction, will not bode well for you! Trying to reassert yourself at the bottom of the food chain, well, maybe you were never meant to be at the top of it! |
You got it half right, Mapman, now take the Club and bash your brains in. Now with whatever brain cells you have left, repeat to yourself "It sounds good enough" a thousand times. Now repeat to yourself "I am not worthy of a better sounding Format" a thousand times. Next, go out and buy a $10,000.00 Upgraded Gold plated High Fidelity Club, and repeat this exercise ten-thousand times. Next, brag to your knucle headed, knuckle dragging friends about the wonderful High Fidelity,of your Skull cracking, utilizing your Upgraded $10,000.00 Club. Next, use your club on anyone who disagree's or threatens your $10,00.00 Ego bragging rights. Next, use your club on anyone who has a better idea for a better Sounding Format, other than bashing your brains in, and is a threat to your $10,000.00 Ego bragging Tool! Lastly, shun and isolate anyone who disagrees, or doesn't participate in this same exercise.
Now, I am supposed to lay out $10,000.00 for the honor of participating in this High Fidelity Skull Cracking Exercise, how dare I rain on everyones Parade or upset the Apple Cart! You are damn right I have issues, I happen to like my Skull the way it is, thank-you very much! How many more times is everyone going to turn to the little boy who screams, "The Emperor is not wearing any clothes", and SHOOT the messenger! You would think that all little boys would learn to keep their big mouths shut! Well, that is a scene that puts us right back in the Stone Age, everyone running around naked for the sake of imitation, and no-one dares object! I am not crawling back up into the trees, I am not crawling back into the Ocean, I am not lowering myself on the Food Chain, and I will fight for Technological Progress in all things, not De-Evolving or De-Constructing it! That includes Technological Progress in the Sound Quality of New Formats, not sacrificing it for the sake of convenience! What you people are doing is simply Un-Natural, Illogical, Un-reasonable, dragging Human Progress down and me with it! I am just going to have to take your $10,000.00 Gold Plated High Fidelity Club, and shove it deep into your Soul, where the Sun doesn't shine! You can go ahead, and brag about how much High Fidelity you are getting from that! |
It is obvious, that this means War! On one side, are those fighting for Technological Progress for the sake of improvement in Quality. This includes Sound Quality, as well as other things. On the other side, are those fighting against Technological Progress for the sake of improved Quality, who would rather forsake Quality for the sake of convenience. Despite the recent Technological History of decline in Recorded Sound, focusing on Digital Reproduction, looking at Mankinds History in Technological Progress in its entirety, it is obvious with each new advancement that results do matter! Rarely do you ever see any Technological advancement offer lower Quality, although most do promise more convenience. Most have tried to offer both, rarely do you see one that sacrifices one for the other, rarer still to see any one actually sacrifice Quality for the sake of convenience. Many Technological advancements have simply faded off of the Market, because they offered convenience, but no real Quality to back it up! Pet Rocks, and Cheta Pets are extreme examples of this!
I can not explain the accepted decline in Sound Quality, in the last 30 years, with every New Format, except to concider it an abberation that is building momentum for a dramatic Market Correction! It is just as hard to predict, as Earthquakes, even though you know one is on the way, just don't know when! History shows, that when any Market has a severe decline in Quality, that there is always someone just around the corner who sees a huge business opportunity to offer a little more than everyone else. The Temptation grows to try and Corner the Market, after all, every other competitor has left itself wide open and vulnerable by offering further and further declining Quality in Music Reproduction. The stresses along this Faultline are growing exponentially, something is eventually going to have to give. Things couldn't possibly remain as they are, and they certainly couldn't remain as they are forever. I am counting on it! I think that it would be ridiculous not to! |
Not yet. I would give it some more time. I also plan on sending three other similar E-mails to three other contacts at Capitol Records. I also plan on sending an E-mail to Marcussen Mastering Studios, the Studios who Mastered the High Resolution Surround Sound for this Dianna Krall release. I presume that they were Subcontracted by Capitol Records, they could be the ones who actually did the work. They could be the ones I need to contact. I couldn't help notice Multi-Channel releases of Dianna Krall on SACD. The Dianna Krall-The Look Of Love, is a Multi-Channel 24-bit/96kHz DVD-Audio Format. I am not particularly a Dianna Krall Fan, but after hearing this DVD, I might end up being one. I would like to hear if anyone has even tried this DVD, Downmixed or Separate Surround Sound Channels, on a Pioneer DV58-AV or other Universal Player. I would like to know if anyone has had the same experience, Downmixed it sounds a hell of allot like a Record! Has anyone had any similar experience with Her Multi-Channel SACD Releases, Downmixed or otherwise? Has anyone had any similar experience with other Multi-Channel SACD from other Artists? It would seem that some are having a hit or miss, with good Sound Quality from SACD Disks. Maybe the really good sounding ones should be double checked to see if they might be actually Multi-Channel being downmixed by our Transports. Just a suggestion.
I didn't expect immediate results, preserverence will determine the outcome. I could give up after only one try, but you should know me better than that! I will keep you updated. Some feedback would be nice, just to make sure that I am not losing my mind, and hearing things! Can't believe that no-one has discovered this Silver Disk Gem before! It sounds miles ahead of any Silver Disk that I have heard, there isn't even any comparison! I just picked it off of the shelf at random! Why can't they make them all sound as good? They can, and we deserve it, I know that I do!
What might be interesting, is whatever processing was utilized, could be utilized in other ways. Universal Players could be designed to take ordinary CD, Upsample it to 24-bit/96kHz, sent through a similar Micro-Processor for Surround Sound/ Multi-Channel, and then Downmixed within our own Players. This could be done to add back all of the missing harmonic content that is stripped during the Digital Conversion Process. I don't know why 2-Channel Higher Sampling Rates, or SACD, still seem to strip the Music of its Harmonic Content. I don't know why this seems to be the only Process that actually, and substantially puts it back. The Foundation for this Harmonic Content during the Processing, is still based on what little Harmonic Content remains on the 2-Channel Digital Recording. You can argue that this Process corrupts the original Music Event, I would argue that Digitizing the original Music Event so radically corrupts the Harmonic Content, that this Processing might be the only way to correct the damage! Imagine being able to listen to your CD collection again, without getting Migrane Headaches after the first few Disks! I guess that everyone prefers to really aggrivate their Migraine Headaches, by buying into MP-3! Gee- I hope that I am successful, and the Masochists don't win, but I am really outnumbered! |
You may think that misery loves company, but I hope by now you realize that I make for lousy company! I am not exactly a follower, if you know what I mean! |
Update: Managed to get on E-mail list for Capital Studios via their Website. Left an E-mail for Paula Salvatore, contact at Capitol Studios and Mastering. She appears to work in the Recording Department. Recieved a response, that a formal E-mail is forthcoming from her.
Sent an E-mail to Stewart Whitmore, recording engineer at Marcussen Mastering Studios. This is the Studio that Dave Collins did the Surround Sound Mastering for DIANNA KRALL: THE LOOK OF LOVE DVD-Audio Disk.
Both E-mails inquired about the Mastering processed used, expressed an interest in more releases utilizing this Format, inquired about any plans for doing so.
These people are probably having a heart attack, no-one from the Public has ever contacted them, inquiring about the Sound Quality of a particular Format. Shame on you! No wonder they think no-one cares! Probably the first time that anyone has even complemented them! I don't give very many complements, only when there is an extra-ordinary effort to produce Sound Quality that is Generations ahead of any 2-Channel Digital Recording, no matter what the Sampling Rate, and I didn't even have to use extra Amplifiers or Speakers!
I will keep you posted! |
Update: Time for the Pettyofficer to eat some Crow. Sent three E-mails to Capitol Mastering Studios, and one E-mail to Marcussen Mastering Studios. Both Studios are listed on the back of the DIANNA KRALL: THE LOOK OF LOVE DVD-Audio Disk. Recieved two responses from Capitol Mastering, both claiming that Formal E-mail Responses were forthcomming. It is apparent that this is simply an automated System sending out an automated response, might as well be E-mailing a Robot. It is apparent that no E-mail Responses from a real Human Being are forthcomming. Gave it my best shot, waited long enough. I take full responsibity for all insults and hurt feelings that I may have caused other Audiogon Members, and I Apologize. I was trying to get everyone to think outside the box, thought shock treatment might wake everyone up. It is my fault that I missunderstood the audience that I was addressing. How do you try to get a Masochist to act in his own best interest, you can't, it is simply square peg-round hole logic. I deserve all of the fault for even trying, I am smart enough to know better. My Plan was simple, rile up enough Audiogon members to flood the Recording Manufacturers with demand for Multi-Channel High Resolution Digital Recordings. I thought that E-mails would be the best tool. Again, it was square peg-round hole logic, and no amount of insult will make that square peg fit. I should have known better. I know better now. There might be a chance, if enough Members send E-mails to these Manufacturers, but from my experience I seriously doubt it. I never expected deadpan silence from paying someone a compliment, but that is all I can offer you if you want to E-mail these Recording Studios. I will include the E-mail addresses, use them-don't use them, do with as you will. I think that I am pretty much done with the whole mess. Once again, my Apologies to Anyones feelings that might have been hurt during this Thread. I really think that you are all really smart and intelligent people with an enthusiastic interest in Sound Reproduction. I really wish you the best. [email protected] [email protected] sw-Stewart Whitmore [email protected] |
