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Can anyone hear the difference when you add REL subwoofers when playing two channel

I wonder if anyone else has had problems hearing a difference when adding REL subwoofers to their two channel systems?  I have gone back to a reputable dealer in town to listen to a pair of Vienna Acoustic Mozart's paired with a REL S3 and I couldn't detect a difference when they added and subtracted the REL.  I wonder if this was because the Vienna Acoustic Mozart's are already can extend down to 30 Hz.  I have also read reviews on the Mozart's and they said one of their criticisms was they felt the Mozart's to be too boomy in the bass.  

The dealer keeps telling me I am expecting to hear a more punchy pounding bass sound and that is not what I should be listening to.  He keeps saying I should be listening for greater depth and space to create a larger sound stage.  He went on to say if I had a subwoofer that delivered too much bass, they would eventually drive me out of the room and spoil my enjoyment of listening to music.  I thought I had sensitive ears to sound, but in this case I wonder if I am tone deaf.  My fear is getting a pair of T/9i's in my home and my wife telling me I wasted our money because she could not hear a difference. 

There must be a reason why so many dealers have told me their first pick would be a REL because they are so musical.

I also question why REL manufactures their subs with such low wattage?  For example, their S3 delivers only 400 watts and their T/9i's deliver just 300 watts.  When comparing them to  subwoofers like JL, which deliver 750 watts to $1500 watts, maybe REL subwoofers are just too wimpy.
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Showing 6 responses by m-db

m-db's avatar
m-db
930 posts
 
As jl above points out a simple way to hear what a subwoofer is doing is to simply turn it off.  

The REL method of speaker or high level connectivity was a solution to connect to receivers back in the day that lacked pre outputs. The assumption is using the same signal the speaker gets exceptional integration is guaranteed.   

REL describes their product as providing bass extension and is not a subwoofer. In my experience their products ability to integrate and their bass performance is mediocre. Regardless of my opinion, if its connectivity and presentation appeals to you that's all that should matter.

Higher end subwoofers such as JL Audio F series and Velodyne DD Plus offer automatic equalization, room optimization, higher quality enclosures, drivers, and methods of speaker cone control. While these companies make a handsome product the majority of their extra cost is internal, design, and development. They will integrate with any speaker and last through system changes for years to come. If there's punch on the recording they'll punch and the only thing that will get spoiled is you.         
m-db's avatar
m-db
930 posts
 
Larry, 
Speakon is simply another method of speaker or high level cable termination typically found in pro audio applications. REL uses a Speakon connection at the subwoofer end only.
Servo driver control is a monitoring technology that decreases distortion in long excursion drivers. 

Introducing any basic subwoofer/s into your room/system is far from impossible and should add a welcome dimension to the presentation. It can be challenging which is why many hobbyist and reviewers have had negative experiences over the years. The acceptance and ease of signal processed units by these same people has been game changer. 

JL Audio markets the basic E series and DSP equipped F series subwoofers which they're famous for. Their differences are substantial. 



lalitk,
["I picked out REL for bass quality and their seamless integration"]
I'm interested as to what and how you compared your final choice to?
The owner of an $8900. REL Studio III we compared sold his the very next week despite our efforts using four different methods of setup. 
m-db's avatar
m-db
930 posts
 
dave_b2,433 posts05-06-2019 7:08amR E L
Don't overthink it!
The Speakon connection makes a huge difference alone plus they are designed to augment music...not HT
I've experienced the affects of cable differences in my systems but I'm at a loss here. After my experience with a REL sub I don't mean to challenge your statement, rather to understand your experience.
Could you explain how a cable with a Speakon termination at one end and bare wire termination at the other end makes a difference let alone a huge difference with music (two channel?) but not home theater?
m-db's avatar
m-db
930 posts
 
OK, gotcha both.

Speakon’s are so well made for years I’ve dreamed of a replacement for the IEE female end of power cables. The majority of my PA snake, monitor, and Bass rig cabling is DIY Canare with Speakon terminations, dependable gear.


Dave, when we did our half baked sub comparison we eventually did over think the beautifully made Studio III. We relocated the sub from out of the corner and set it on its side then fed it processed equalization via low level RCAs from the DD Velodyne. The overwhelming consensus was that it dramatically improved its integration and presentation, demonstrating its weakness wasn’t so much a lack of amplifier power rather the lack of modern sub setup and technology. As I mentioned earlier despite the improvement its owner let it go.
m-db's avatar
m-db
930 posts
 

mzkmxcv740 posts 05-10-2019 5:10pm

It’s the same as using high level inputs. There is no “magic”. The claim is that unlike a line level connection (RCA), the SpeakOn method allows for the subwoofer’s signal to have the same sound characteristics that is being fed to the speaker. However, it’s pretty silly, what that means is you are thus amplifying a signal that already has been amplified, so it has lots of distortion/harmonics/noise, rather than amplifying a much cleaner signal.
 

Yep. Some amplifier designers are offering a direct preamplifier connection to their amps bypassing the amps input components altogether.

During our comparison using the low level RCA to the Studio III and bypassing the high level connection from the Ayre V-1xe we could hear and see a slight but definite frequency extension on the room response graph. 

In our room the most effective adjustment after the crossover point was by reducing the Studio IIIs gain. Using equalization and Room Optimization allowed a bit more gain and much better integration with the Studio III but no where near the integration of the other two DSP subs on hand.

Differences in room and environment are an important and unknown element during a casual subwoofer performance discussions on the internet. With three subwoofers in a room at the same time individual performance becomes obvious even for the most inexperienced listener.

After this comparison when I read claims of seamless or perfect subwoofer integration my first thought is, compared to what? I'll admit I'm a fanboy but I could care less if someone purchases any product that I use. 

Politely offering ones subjective experience is not bashing its merely responding. 

After a year of dialing in my main speaker positions an industry professional graciously came to my home and moved my speakers a few inches dramatically expanding the sound stage. I don't think there are more than two or three who frequent this site who have that level of expertise. One of those people is participating in this thread and he seems to be a satisfied REL owner.

Larry, good luck with your choice and have fun with it. 
m-db's avatar
m-db
930 posts
 

dadork, clearly, your not a dork.

The improvements I think your seeking can be accomplished with the sub and room relationship, third party monitoring and equalization products using your subwoofer low level inputs. Unfortunately your subwoofers low frequency response has its limits in comparison to many other brands. 

Regardless, there aren't many low frequency rules. Your satisfaction is everything. Good luck with it.

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