OK, so for example, a Parasound amp I'm looking at says it's input impedance is 33kohms, my AVR lists output impedance at 1.2kohms. How does that match up? |
The rule of thumb is 10x the preamp impedance, but others say 20 x the Preamp impedance, so either way, your under 33kohms.
Let us know how it turns out for you and good luck! |
As I started on this thread, I suggest making sure want to keep the speakers you have, before doing anything else. If you do fine, by all means get the most out of them within your means.
If your not sure, or plan to change the speakers down the road, stop, you'll be going down a road that is likely to be marred with unnecessary obstacles, effort and frustration.
As far as making suggestions that also cater to some visual considerations, well, that's where I take the nearest exit.
Good luck, I hope you find what your looking for. |
I managed to repair the dome midrange. So, although I can't say I'd never want to upgrade speakers, as it stands I'm back on the upgrade-amp track. So, about that impedance spec....? |
I have the PSB Sync 1's paired with an Ayre AX-7e integrated amp, Love it - drives well at both low and higher SPLs. Only trick was placement and the use of the woofer plugs on the PSBs. Took some time to get set with those. Overall very happy and have to plans to change. I too considered Vandersteen - at the time the 2ceSig iis - but would love have loved to check out the Treos. Both PSB and Vandy match very well with Ayre IMHO. Good luck! |
Was the "dome midrange" broken? |
Yes, I replaced it with a poly material. Back to 'normal', do back on the original quest...it was not broken when all this started. The original polypropylene was old and dried, and developed a slight tear.
Running through my reference discs yesterday, the speakers are back to 'normal'. Sound good until the volume is listed as 0db, where +16.5 is absolute max. Past that point, and the highs get harsh, and there's no cohesion to the music, it just becomes a muddled mass of noise. |
Acman3, so as long as I stay above 20X 1.2 (25kohms), I'm safe in that regard? |
I personally would make it 15k-20k. A lot of class d amps run at 20k and would be fine. |
ok, thanks. The Odyssey I'm leaning towards is 22. |
wow!I gave a well educated fact!,A used krell amp would give you the sound you are seeking for your infinitys!way better than parasound ever thought about sounding!,even a used intergrated amp like a 300I, 400xI, a used pure class A fpb 200 that goes for $2,500.00 to $3,500.00 would litterally destroy a parasound amp with its sound quality!,I have experience with ribbon speakers,with the right amp your infinitys that I am familiar with as well,would sing!,with these krell amps,and they will not make you morgage the house to do it!your infinitys will out perform those psb,paradighm speakers period with a good amp!,A tube pre-amp would be the finishing touches to a good sound for ribbon speakers!happy listening! |
wow!I gave a well educated fact!,A used krell amp would give you the sound you are seeking for your infinitys!way better than parasound ever thought about sounding!,even a used intergrated amp like a 300I, 400xI, a used pure class A fpb 200 that goes for $2,500.00 to $3,500.00 would litterally destroy a parasound amp with its sound quality!,I have experience with ribbon speakers,with the right amp your infinitys that I am familiar with as well,would sing!,with these krell amps,and they will not make you morgage the house to do it!your infinitys will out perform those psb,paradighm speakers period with a good amp!,A tube pre-amp would be the finishing touches to a good sound for ribbon speakers!happy listening! |
wow!I gave a well educated fact!,A used krell amp would give you the sound you are seeking for your infinitys!way better than parasound ever thought about sounding!,even a used intergrated amp like a 300I, 400xI, a used pure class A fpb 200 that goes for $2,500.00 to $3,500.00 would litterally destroy a parasound amp with its sound quality!,I have experience with ribbon speakers,with the right amp your infinitys that I am familiar with as well,would sing!,with these krell amps,and they will not make you morgage the house to do it!your infinitys will out perform those psb,paradighm speakers period with a good amp!,A tube pre-amp would be the finishing touches to a good sound for ribbon speakers!happy listening! |
The problem is, as I see it, there are very few 'Facts' in this hobby that is so dependant on personal preference. I've read a lot about Krell, and others, and have no doubt they would drive the Infinity's, or any other speaker, with ease. My reading (which is all I have since I can't audition all the candidates) says they may not be the best choice for a laid back top end, which I think I need to tame the Emit tweeters. Being familiar with those, you know they aren't shy. So, although current and 'balls' are necessary for the low end on the Kappa's, and the Krell has that in spades, I also need a 'softer'(?) top end. Other's have suggested a Butler, C-J, and others, and I believe they 'know' that their suggestions would also give me what I need. The Odyssey would be new, and under $1500.00, and that's where I'm aiming, although there is a used 400Xi on fleabay for $1800, and I think on the 'gon for a little less. Klaus @ Odyssey says his Khartago, upgraded, will make my Infinities sound better than I ever thought they could, apples and oranges. I'm....sceptical...that there would be that much difference, however I do believe it'll be a big plus. Everyone here has supported my basic premise, that a good amp can in fact tame my speakers, so I don't feel it's a fool's errand. If the Odyssey does fall short, I can send it back, if a used Krell (or any other used amp) fails to impress, it's not so easy. I don't believe there is one right answer, I'm taking all the suggestions and investigating on my own.
Thanks again. |
well put English210,still,the krells mentioned above have finese and a laid back sound on the treble,they are in no way forward sounding!,do keep me posted here on your quest,I know krell is not the only answer here,just one of them,happy listening! |
FWIW, I had a Krell 400xi with Martin Logans and Joseph Audio 25xl and enjoyed it. Not bright like the Krell reputation. Only sold it to go to separates. YMMV unfortunately!!!
You can study and read til the cow's come home, it's good to do your homework, but you will need to hear in your system to see what you like. You may find the soft top end boring/polite once you hear it.
Have Fun and enjoy learning! The journey is most of the fun. |
I'm not elliminating anything yet, except things I just can't afford. I am also one prone to wait a little longer to get the $$ for what I really want, instead of compromise and then wish I'd spent the extra, but there are options that just aint gonna happen, too. That's part of what's going on now. I know that ultimately, until I pull the trigger, the 'answer' will remain unsure. I also feel that any of the amps suggested will likely serve the purpose, and there's not likely to be just one 'right' answer. Maybe part of it is the 'offer I can't refuse' that hasn't quite happened yet. But I do at least know of lots more options thanks to the answers I've received here.
So, anyone got a 400xi for $500?? :) |
@acman3,I am glad to see someone agree with what I was tring to say!your post is well put!,I agree with you with what you are saying!as well,keep us posted english210,cheers! |
Oh I will. Got my wife involved in some listening last night, on a variety of material, including some piano that was really interesting in that the staging was like a big piano, panning right (right hand) to left (left hand), listening for cohesion between the drivers, trying to discern changes, without being able to, which is good.
As I said, I'm not discounting any of the suggestions except ones I just can't afford. The point is well taken that the 400xi is not like other Krell's that can be bright, so if the right deal passes my way, I'm open. Klaus is familiar with the Kappa's, and swears his amp will make me hear them in a whole new way, so those are the front runners.... |
@ English210,there are no bright krell amps from 2006 and down at all!the newer krells are wide banwidth amps that are very,very,resolving!you need warm non analitical treble cables on those amps,thats all!cheers! |
In truth, there are probably many brands that would warm up your Kappas. Klaus sounds like a true fan of audio but also a good salesman(not knocking him). I am in a similar situation as you and I plan add to my Halo A21 a NAD pre-amp(known to be on the warm side). The A21 did stop the sibilance I was experiencing, but I want to experiment with the warm side of things.
I ordered a tube pre amp kit (3 tubes) and I'm looking forward to the tinkering! |
Runnin, I agree, and being in sales, I'm not unmindful of Klaus' bias :). It seems supported by what I read. I also agree that many brands could accomplish my goal. There have been a half dozen at least in this thread alone, and none were subsequently followed by argument from another poster, so they all seem like good options. It also seems that SQ overall can be improved in this upgrade, within my budget too, so that's where my research is taking me now. I probably don't have enough ear-time with enough variety of systems to be sure, but I'd guess my preferences lie toward a warmer sound, but the air around instruments is important to me too. I respond to that decay and echo in recordings of wind instruments and strings, the way notes hang in the air. That requires detail and resolving ability, but too much is too harsh....
I'd be surprised if my choice now was the 'right' one forever, as I'm likely to hear new things that need improvement, as is the nature of this hobby, but I plan to get it as close to 'right first time' as I can.
Thanks Audiolabytinth for the clarification of what vintages to avoid/aim for. There is one on fleabay I'm watching... |
Ok, there's an upgraded Stratos on here, but it keeps telling me invalid username/password when I try to ask how old it is, etc....anyone else had issues like this? |
Krell KAV250 2-channel for $1200
Odyssey Stratos Plus $750
Krell 400xi - $1600+
Debate please....I am leaning toward the Odyssey for $$ reasons, but would that be short sighted? |
I tend to agree with Audiolabyrinth. Some how Krell has gotten an underserved reputation for being bright (at least IMHO), at the very worst they can be perhaps a bit grainy in the treble, but not bright. If anything Krells might be a touch dark. Krells usually have lots of power and amazing dynamics, both micro and macro, which may or may not explain this unfair (IMHO) reputation. Or could be that they've been victimized by their own success?
I also find that their intergrateds don't have the same composure that their separates do when asked to work 4 Ohms and below. YMMV. |
Well, my offer was accepted on the Stratos. Worst case, I can resell for less of a loss than if I bought new, best case, it'll cure what ails the Kappas. I'll report back in a few days. I needed to try something, and this is a less expensive way to put the theories to the test....thanks, all. |
@ English210,congradulations!,keep us posted on the sound of the amp you obtained with your infinitys!,I am currious of the match!thanks!cheers! |
Me too! Very curious! Thanks again. If this used Odyssey hadn't come along right when it did, I probably would have gone with one of the Krell's, since I've known about them forever, and like many, listed after one...this way though, my theory as to 'fixing' the issue with my kappas by giving them 'real' power can be tested with less $$ risk. If it doesn't work?....well, that's the fun of the hobby, right?? |
@ English210,There is alot of amps out there that have alot of power that sounds like crap!,The design of the amp really matters!,the particular sound of an amp may not be for the infinitys you have,even thou it has power to spare!,unfortunally,Its a gamble!,look,Krell makes a older intergrated called the 300I that you would be able to buy for $800.00 to $1,200.00 that would be great,unless your speakers are below 4 oms,that I believe they are not!,this krell intergrated amp is 150 watts per channel!,research the awards this ole amp has,and the user feedbacks,you will be surprised!,if the amp you just bought does not work for you,this is the best value in the used market that I know of!cheers! |
Audiolabyrinth, OK, thanks again. Talking to the seller on the Odyssey, he echoed what i've heard/read, so I should be all set. Looking forward to finding out.
Since you know Krell, what about the KAV250a? It has been on my radar as well, and certainly has the power, as long as it has the sound... |
@ english210,I would not wast my time on eany Kav seperates!the intergrateds are as good,If you want to go seperates I would do the ole kas models,fpb full power balanced models,an fpb 200 is used market $2,000.00 to $3,000.00 and well worth the money!,and the KAS model amps are older than fpb but sound good to for the budget we are tring to work with here.,there really is not alot of difference in volume between 150 watts a channel and 250 watts a channel,thats why I said the intergratededs are a better deal,you also get a good pre-amp built in!cheers! |
OK, thanks. The Stratos should be here tomorrow, so we'll see how that goes. Klaus said I paid 'about right', and offered to do whatever may become necessary to upgrade it if needed. He told me to start by leaving it on for a couple of days, and make sure it's warm to the touch, but not hot. I'm like a kid at Christmas, waiting for the Fedex truck...:) |
@ English210,Man-o-man do I know were you are coming from with waiting for that delivery!,I am a kid at christmas my self when it comes to that!I will be waiting here to hear what you have to say about the amp,damn,now you got me excited!,LOL,its not even my amp!cheers and good luck with this amp!,happy listening! |
In answer to the original question, I'll have to say I need a few days for it to warm up, but so far....happyhappyhappyhappy!!!
The initial impact was in the bass. I guess that's where 'pact' is, but you get my meaning. I went to straight two channel, no 'sub out' from avr. I've checked three times so far, the sub really is not on. I've never heard these speakers put out bass like this! My wife in the other room even commented, positively.
Volume levels are increased, and highs are better...not as smooth as I'd like, maybe, but let me give it time. I am hearing more material..almost to the level of some new 805 Diamonds I listened to a few months back. That was 10K worth of amps and speakers. Yes, there is still a little too much brightness...but it is better, and I know it takes a few days for this amp to sound right..
More later, gotta change discs |
Time to start looking for that Preamp and cabling? ;) |
O great, thanks!! :)
The problem is, I agree. :)
I still don't get how much more bass information I'm getting. It's not volume, it's like the old amp just didn't reproduce the notes! I did reach the speakers limits on one 'test' with organ notes...a definite woofer excursion distress sound. But even before that there is just more bass information getting to the woofers than before, that's the only way I know to describe it |
@ English210,I'm here,reading your evaluations,the amp may need alot more time to settle in,maybe a couple of hundred hours,if the amp is used,and if I recall you did buy used,so I would give it more time.Happy listening! |
Does it still need that much time, being used? Not that I care, honestly, it's such an improvement over what I had, anything more is gravy. I haven't got serious about listening, just hit it with a couple of pieces I'm very familiar with. |
@ English210,your amp may or may not need 200 hrs to settle in,I gave that answer because after that many hours the amp would have no excuses for the sound it is providing being a used amp,a new amp would require 500 hrs to be sure of break-in.happy listening! |
Ok, thanks. Last night was better than the night before. It's on all the time. I was concerned about popping when I turned the system on/off, leaving the amp on, but there wasn't any, so that's good...I'm a happy camper..:)
But in the back of my mind there's that little niggle...how much better might the PSB's sound..?? :) |
@ english210,psb's thats funny!,I respect your infinitys way more than those 2 dimensional sounding speakers any day!,your speakers are capable of alot with the right equipment that is very exspensive!cheers! |
Well, it just keeps getting better. Sound stage focusing up nicely, sub is turned off for two channel, and the bass output is amazing. I am still stunned at the difference the amp made.
But...there's always a but...the extreme highs are still too much, and not accurate. Most noticeable on piano notes for me. There's a shrill-tinniness that I can only ascribe to the ribbons-style tweeters (or to my ears).
Audiolabyrinth, I am somewhat surpised to hear that, since the PSB's sounded great to me. I am also thinking that the environment they were in at the store (large open room, no boundaries to the side) would make them sound worse than in my 'real life sized' 12X19X8 room. As I've said before, and hence my quandary, the Infinity's don't give much away to the PSB's (except as the differences in room would effect the PSB's), but they don't sound as good. It's just that I don't hear $3500 difference in price, so it's a hard leap to make.
I may try the tissue-over-the-tweeter trick I read about here and elsewhere. But I would be open to other recommendations, either of speaker upgrade or other tricks-n-tips. There's no doubt the Odyssey is bringing out the best in the Kappa's, but they are hardly the last word in sound. Given that I like the sound of the PSB's, and the size works aesthetically, bass extension isn't critical since I do have a sub, and $$ aren't unlimitted, what do you all think???
Thanks |
It sounds like you want new speakers. Don't expect any of us to stop you. ;)
If anyone is going to be of help, we need to know what source, and cabling you are using. Your current problem can possibly be solved with a preamp, cabling, or source, but maybe you need new speakers to start with???
|
Sometimes ones dissatisfaction is in the recordings themselves and not necessarily with the playback system. |
@ English210,The problem you described can be fixed for sure with cables!thats were I would start,please do not go chaseing the cat by the tail by mixing different cables,I have friends on the gon that do that,seems they are never satiesfied with their sound!,I do not believe you need other speakers,I agree with acman3 with what he said,but with the exception of keeping the speakers you have,It appears on the most part that the aquaired amp you just got is working out good for you,excellent!,cables useally become an issue when we change a componet,the synergy has to be matched,their are plenty of cables that will fix the ribbons sound that you have,If you want a basis for recommendations for cables,and your desired pricepoint,let me know,cheers! |
English 210, I jumped into the audiophile fray a couple of years ago and have learned a lot. As my ear has improved, I have learned a good deal about synergy of systems, etc!
Before spending more on speakers and amps, you might want to check on what you are playing your CDs in. We upgraded to an Oppo 95 last year from a Yamaha DVD player. I was astounded by the huge improvement in smoothness and imaging. My kids $300 bluray player sounded harsher and thinner by comparison.
Also, trying different interconnects made big differences in my speakers' perceived character. I tried very high quality Audioquest silvers that made my fast, but musical vienna acoustic speakers sound harsh on the top end. Low quality copper wires collapsed the soundstage and dulled both bass and treble extension. Everything affects the output!
Speaker wire upgrades--I stepped up from $150 monster cables to MITs. I bought OLD generation mIT 750 series2 with cvt speaker wires and had them professionally reterminated so that age and oxidation didn't interfere with my sound. MITs were a bit darker and more transparent and linear than the monsters were. They are reputed to roll off highs a bit, though I have not seen any issues with the sound I am hearing from my setup. That roll off however "could" help with your harsh highs issue.
I am not familiar with either your speakers or your new amp, so I cannot speak to their characters. However, synergy is an issue. If the amp is one you like, then take it with you if speaker upgrades are your chosen path.
When we first shopped for our system, we chose an amp we liked, then tried speakers with it till we found a set that sounded right with vocals, tympani and horns. Few speakers did justice to all three, but fewer still did a great job with vocals.
Good luck!! Have fun with the process!!!!
Deb |
@ Deebarnes,well said!,awsome,cables is what I recommended could be the problem,thanks! |
Audiolabyrinth, The only reason I left it open on the speakers was that ,if English WANTS new speakers, ( we all know how that is) he should go ahead now and get them.
There is a Manley Shrimp and a Quicksilver preamp, on the Gon, but the source may be the biggest problem.
Then there is cable abyss. |
@ Acman3, I agree!,yes,the cable abyss!,I believe given the right equipment and cables his infinitys would sing!,ribbons can sound real good,if you know what you are doing!,hes going in the right direction,cables can and will fix his ribbon issues.,I also agree with everything else you said as well.cheers! |
I do get the potential issue being the source (material or player). Right now I'm using a PS3 through my AVR - Yamaha RXA3010. An Oppo 103 is on the shopping list. I know (now) that Yamaha is notoriously bright, so that certainly could be the issue, but it is relatively new, and the processor for movies, so I'm loathe to replace it. I'll have to verify which i/c's are going to the Odyssey - I was using AQ, but they are made in such a way that the terminals won't spread far enough part to connect to the amp, so I switched them with the ones I'm using on the sub, and have to see what those are. Speaker wires are old Monster cable from when I got the speakers. Can't remember which ones though. All I can say is that the actual wires are about 16 gauge, wrapped around a central conductor, then insulated and the plus+minus are then wrapped again. I use bare wire, and trimmed back for 'new' wire connections.
Some of the material I notice the harshness on is off Pandora, (but by no means all), which is using the ARC on the HDMI.
There is an 'itch' for new speakers, emotionally based as so much of this is, however the $$ isn't really there...the wife says it's her turn, and has a long list ;) (and to be fair, she's right).
It does bring up the next point though...Given that perfection is a moving target that can never be acheived, at some point each of us has to say 'enough's enough' and be content. Fine tuning to get the most out of what we have is also important, and the synergy of course - $5K total can sound better than $50K worth of equipment - Having said that...I think it makes sense to me to have an eye on where I may go with speakers in the future to prevent wasting money in the short term. Also, one of the items on wifey's list is taking out half the back wall behind the listening position, making it open to the kitchen. The room is currently 19 long, but opening up that wall will make it 36. To picture the layout of the 'new' back wall, it would be open except for a false header full width, down 1' from the ceiling, and from left to right, a half wall 3 1/2' high, 7' wide, leaving 5' open. the room itself will go from carpet to wood floors with area rugs. (so brighter yet). So, the environment for the speakers will change their sound as well.
Should I wait til all that's done and see how big the problem is then? Perhaps (unlikely) the room qualities will ameliorate the problem, or conversely (and most likley, given Murphy's position on my back most days) make the problem too great to be 'solved' with cables-I/C's. Or is the change in the room not likely to be so great as to render changes I make now in cables-I/C's pointless? How do I determine a realistic budget for 20 year old $1600 speakers, a $2K AVR bought cheap, and a $1500 amp bought used for less. I know I could easily spend that sum on one pair of interconnects and speaker wires.
Thanks!! |
