Since making a spread sheet with my audio system prices, I have been thinking(shocked) about my total investment in cables. My total system retails at $67,000 (Digital and analog front ends included). I purchased all of it here on Audiogon so my investment is about 50%. Of that I have about 10% invested in interconnects and cables and another 10% in Power Cables (Shunyata Hydra included). That's $13,000 worth of wire. I'm starting to question whether it might be more effective to put some of this budget into acitve components. It would take forever to listen to all possible combinations, but would like to hear others experiences with relatively high end systems and cable selection. It would seem to me that the point of diminishing returns would be reached sooner with cables than with speakers and amps. Do most of you follow the 10% "rule" for cabling? How do PCs fit into this rule? Are there any super bargain cables capable of keeping up with highly resolving electronics?
ASI Liveline Cables.... These are, I would call one of the best cables on the market today. They are neither cheap nor expensive. A pair of IC costs $995. But they just do everything right and sonically correct for most systems...regardless of price. Most of the times people go for higher and higher in the cable chain because they do not want to under utilize their system. Cables do play their own trick in the final presentation of the sound but who knows what would have been the exact size of your soundstage if the electronics were all in one box (no cables in between)....basically if we can get a cable which brings out almost everything and presents it in a manner where there is not much to find flaw with (though one can still find some) you would be pretty much done. Getting to this point in general is a long and expensive process unless you have some 500 different cables from different price range to try out from.
This is when we start looking for a "GEM" which does that fine balancing act of doing everything to a level where you stop bothering further!! I found the Livelines just that.... Very neutral, exceptionally fine tonal balance, nice presentation (soundstage width, depth, precision), Rich and detailed, fatless but full of body and texture, leading edge and trailing edge clarity, definition and decay...you name it!!!
What more can you ask for ? And they are priced in a bracket where its affordable but not cheap. When you hear them, you would not be able to take them off your mind..I can bet.
This is a great thread of opinions from different people. I personally do not have a set ratio of cable vs equipment. i'll throw out my two cents of worth as well.
The material cost to make a 1M cable may be just a few pennies. This is well known. Though, I consider the following:
1: Can "I, other DIYers or other companies" make the same quality cable for how much it costs the high priced cable company to make it?
2: Even "I, other DIYers or other companies" have the skill and equipment to make it to the high priced factory's spec, will it sound the same as one coming out from that factory?
3: The only way to compare the cable made by "myself, other DIYers or other companies" and the cable made by the high priced cable company is to buy both and compare them in person. Why not just buy one at the first place in stead?
I personally can not make one. I would just let the cable company make my hard earnt money. I don't look at things with how much it costs to make. I look at it's value to me. when the price is below it's value to me, i'll pay for it.
Some people brought up a topic about a $500 cable sounds the same or out performs a $5000. It is their opinion in their system, not mine. The only way to find out whether they are the same or not is to buy both $500 and $5000 cable and compare them by myself. As the power cords i tried, I found the more I pay, the more detail is recovered from music. (I look at the whole audio system as a music recovery unit, degradation started as soon as it was recorded on the media. The whole system is just trying to recover as much detail as the original performance performed. There will not be an equipment performs better than a performer is performing in live.)
There's another topic about whether the price difference worth the performance difference. I would say it varies. It's all depends on how different people look at their money. There are people spending $10000 like spending a $100 bill. In that case, the little performance difference will be worth the price tag to them.
Buying audio gear means buying the experience to me. The more budget I have, the wider range of products I can experience with. While forum reviews provide a great communication interface between different players with different setups, I will only evaluate whether the experience is worth it's price tag or not when I can try it in person. I do not own any expensive cables non equipments but i'm willing to buy them as long as i can afford them. The reason is that it is my hobby. If this cable sounds good to me and I can afford it while i have the gut to take the risk of it sounding below my expectation, why not give it a try.
It is just how audio means to me and i'm working toward to experience as many different equipments as i can.
I have read that many have spent quite a bit in thier systems. My question is, What kind of transformers and power supplies are in these components? I am talking mainly about power cords and conditioners. Maybe a modification to the transformer ( better transformer) or power supply would render better results. It is hard to believe that with the amount invested that the components would not already have top notch discrete components inside. I can see why one would question the investment in power cords and conditioners. Speaker cables and interconnects are a different story.
I wouldn't even worry about power cords except to put a decent budget upgrade on until you have brought the interconnects and speaker wire to a highly improved state
Wow you got a lot of crazy responses. Don't make this rocket science cause it aint. First, demo some cables in a reasonable price range and see what works best in your system. If you are using very high-end gear to begin with, you should not have to spend That much on cables and I would advise against it. For example, I have listened to both Linn and Simaudio gear with Musaeus (an inexpensive cable) and I would not ever bother to go much beyond it with that gear. You will spend tons of $$$$ for an incremental improvement. By all means experiment but, Dont go crazy. IMO Purist offers great value in their entry to mid level cables. So does Kimber. Good luck.
Recently had a chance to try Morrow Audio interconnects and speaker cables. Mike Morrow is one man who loves audio and it's reproduction in the home. His cables will blow you away for a budget price of around $200 to $600. PLUS YOU GET 60 DAYS NO HASSLE RETURN AND REFUND..no hoops or fine print. FYI, I've had $20K plus cables from Transparent and MIT...these are better:O)
I would also have to agree with having some middle ground in determing how much to spend on cables. As mentioned, if you have a high quality system,then usng more moderately priced cables will still work ver well. But, of course, no matter how good your system, you do not want to opt for low grade cables.
I only admit this here on Audiogon my friends would think Im looney to spend so much on PC,s, I had my Oppo fitted with an IEC and use a Python Helix VX PC and my Denon 1910 with the Anaconda Helix VX PC. Maybe this thread should be System relative to cable .
Hi guys, I am completely new to higher end audio and am just now trying to figure it all out - so many opinions, claims and feasible sounding arguments to deal with and come up with my own conclusions. I read the reviews and listen to people with an open mind, but - with a healthy dose of skepticism thrown in. I am now at the cable selection phase of getting my entry level system dialed in and to be honest a lot of what I read about of what 'this' and 'that' little addition to an already ok piece of cable can do if you were prepared to to spend multiple thousands of dollars more sounds like a bunch of malarky to me, still I am not in an informed position....yet. What I would like to see is a an organized event where we got all these people together who sell this extremely expensive cable, blindfold them, and with all other variables controlled, have them guess which is their cable. I would put my money on it that most would fail miserably, still I think that would make for a very interesting shoot-out in TAS and I think it would sell a lot of copies of the mag. My take on the whole thing so far is the cable companies are making bank, the retailers are making bank off the cables and the magazines are making bank through ads and reviews (which sell more mags)......all these people have nothing to gain by telling us cables don't make THAT much difference. At the end of the day what you hear is a very subjective conclusion and you are being told to an extent what you are "supposed" to hear.....a self-fulfilling prophecy. The question is wether this is justified and a simple double blind experiment like I suggest could lay it all to rest. Just some thoughts from a novice.
Like Comfedboy, I felt that the money should pretty much all go into components until I started listening to different power cords and cables. Now I'd put the auto analogy another way. To me, putting cheap cables on good equipment is like putting worn, under rated tires on a Porsche. You spent all that money on audio equipment, but still aren't hearing what its capable of. I'm not saying that more expensive is always better, but there are better and worse cables out there. The hydra power conditionerds made a huge improvement in my system.
I use a DIY thin ribbon SC that cost a tiny fraction of other component's and beats the band. The Speltz IC does all that can be done letting the boys in the band through. I is the power cables where I have to drop the bucks. They provide the grand ole stage.
Simple. Your system is as good as the weakest link. The cable cost relative to the system is not a good measure. Find the weakest link, improve on this, then go to the next link. If your source or speaks are limiting, cables are not going to do anything. Reduce the number of cables and components, this reduces the weakest points.
Metaphysics and pseudo-psychology are all fine and well. But if one can afford thousands and thousands of dollars on wire, then one has too much money. To me, such monies would be better spent on assisting the less fortunate among us. People listen to music, not metals that are efficient conductors of electricity.
Llanger hits on something obvious, but never the less, extremely important. If music is truly the reason behind our obsession with this hobby, then any system that could reasonably reproduce sound accurately would be enough. Of course that is not the case in the least. We all have OCD to some degree or another and perpetually ruminate over the potential improvements that could be affected in our systems if only...you get the idea. Personaly, I cashed in my last mega system a couple of years ago and have been playing around with that money ever since, vowing to not spend any new money going forward (maybe even paying off a few bills along the way). I have stuck to my self imposed promise and have managed to put together a system that satisfies my musical soul even more than the mega system. Case in point, I came across a professional version of a popular interconnect available to the recording industry and compared them to my $6500 IC's. Yup, the $100/pair IC's were identical in performannce with perhaps an even greater dynamic range and enhanced clarity. Bottom line is that we should not have to spend obscene amounts of money on Audiohype. Setting a reasonable budget and knowing what's important to YOU are most important and efficacious. Being hoodwinked by the Audio Industrial Complex is not!
"Yup, the $100/pair IC's were identical in performannce with perhaps an even greater dynamic range and enhanced clarity"
Yes, I've heard stories like that before. Next person says that he bought $0.12 wire in Home Depot and it was much better than mentioned $100 cables.
Cables do change sound and it my case more expensive cable improved lower midrange that sounded a little thin with AQ Indigo (class D amp) but I'm not sure if next 10x dollar increase would buy audible difference - at least for my inexperienced ears.
What is getting improved might not be appreciated. For instance some don't like certain DACs like Benchmark because their clarity makes them sound "sterile" and "less dynamic". I even heard opinion that instruments should blend more together and guitars sound too clean. Fuzz guitar will always sound more lively than super clean Jazz guitar and if cheaper wire is making it for you - go for it and don't spend money on expensive cables. There is no right or wrong here.
It is also important to mention that placebo effect works in both directions - If you don't believe in cables then cheaper cables will sound better to you. It is possible that in my case more expensive cable gives me only placebo effect but I'm still happy as long as it does. Also cables are non-perishable items and I can spend more to avoid buying them over and over again.
It always puzzles me why people who don't believe in cables post on cable forum. Does anybody know? It sounds a little like deaf man answering add for music teacher just to tell them not to count on him.
Please don't give me BS about helping poor instead of expensive cables. If you want to help poor you should not be in this hobby to start with and you should not drink coffee or alcohol because you could help poor instead(and it is bad for you).
I know this sounds nut case, but I say my system unveils cables for what they are. I can predict how they sound by how they look. Simply said, regardless of any money value, cables with the most insulation sound the worst. With every wrap discarded the cable sounds better. The culprit, as Speltz says on his site, is random white noise bleeding into the music signal. It is woefully loud on my system.
Muralman - from technical point of view dielectric constant of insulation affects capacitance between wires as well as dielectric absorption. Mylar is horrible and it is leading reason of bright tweeters in cheap speakers. Mylar's dielectric constant is in order of 4 while Teflon is about 1.5. Foamed Teflon is even less and oversized sleeves improve it even more (wires like AQ Sky). There is also factor of skin effect that starts at gage 18 for copper at 20kHz. Can all this be audible? I think we can hear what is even very difficult to measure. There are two ways to deal with skin effect in speaker cables where we need thicker wires (I'm not sure why). One is to use copper tape (often seen in crossover's inductors) but this is often not very practical. Another is to split thick wire into whole bunch of thinner wires. They have to be isolated otherwise current will jump from strand to strand (trying to get outside where resistance is lower because of skin effect) trough impurities. It improves things but wires are still in each other's magnetic field and only surface increased. Remedy for that is to use helical pattern of wire on outside of thick hollow core so that each wire is only in magnetic field of two neighboring wires. Now if you add to this issue of inductance of the wire and purity of the metal things are getting really complicated because not only absolute inductance and capacitance are important but also ratio of them. Poor IC cable might have 25pF/0.5uH per foot while great one might reach 2.5pF/0.05uH. Metal purity and type plays role. Silver cables are very fast snappy sound but copper - even few percent adds dimensionality and reduces brightness. Amount of crystals and impurities between them is also a factor (copper oxide is a semiconductor). Things are way more complicated. I could hear improvement in clarity but have to admit that I bought top of the line IC only because it was cheap (relatively) used. If it is placebo effect - great.
Sorry for this BS in previous post - I didn't mean it. I probably already feel guilty for not helping. My stepfather who is elderly distinguished professor of law was spending his free time in Salvation Army stores to buy as much as possible (to stretch his dollar) sending hundreds of parcels to poor families abroad. When I think of it I feel guilty every-time I spend money (not only for expensive cables).
Kijanki........ Wow......... You know your stuff. I don't know anything about cable science. I just know by experience what works, and what doesn't. My stand on insulation is not total. I am open to anything that will prove me wrong. It has to make sense, that's all. Foamed Teflon has piqued my interest, and cotton too. I am not satisfied with the interconnect I am using. I will be making my own. Mylar is not on my shelf.
You rhetorically asked if skin effect in solid wire is audible. If you allow me to answer, yes, very much so on my system.
I hope you don't think I am arguing with you. From what I read, we agree on points of common experience. I had the pleasure of listening to Shunyata SCs in comparison with solid wire. The Shunyata brought frequency extremes in focus. The solid wire held superior in the mids to my ears.
This paradox troubled me no end. It taught me cable science is more complicated than I wanted to believe. That is of what you wrote on your post.
One thing was for sure. I am happy to have mono amps. That allows me to keep my SCs very short - 18". That way, inductance, and capacitance are kept to an inaudible minimum.
Muralman - I said I'm not sure why we need thick speaker wires. My Acoustic Zen Satori Shotguns have gauge 7 each (about 1" dia.) and I think it is overkill but I trust AZ designer Robert Lee and bought the cable. The reason for doubt is simple - why do we need very thick wire or huge damping factor if inductor in series with the woofer has about 0.1 Ohm? Inductance of the wire improves but very little so why to go to such thick wires?
I read on the DIY forum about good results with cotton ,that you mentioned, as a dielectric. Making it pretty is secondary issue but obtaining high quality copper or silver wire is difficult.
I re trimmed my Satoris with new spades and discovered that wire has inside isolated strands (9 I think) + 1 strand that is not solid but has inside again 9 very small strands. More complicated than I expected.
I understand that making cables in small quantities and exotic technologies (zero crystals - means cooling metal very slowly in hot forms so that crystals can not form) but price of some excellent wires (like Stealth Indra) are reaching price of a small car. When I hear no comments from my non-audiophile friends it means they think I'm crazy. For them spending more than $100 on an amp or $500 on speakers is a sin (or madness).
In my $16K system of new and used components, all the wire adds up to a hair under 10%. This wasn't by design, but I just happened to come across this posts and did the math. I was surprised by how close to 10% I was without even knowing it!
There is no correlation between cost and performance in wire. I use Anti-Cables...I compared it to the top of the lines in Nordost, Audioquest, Kimber, Wireworld, Purist, Cardas, etc.,etc. To my wife's and my ears, Anti-Cables came out best. The closest to the Anti-Cables were the Audioquest Sky/Everest combination at a huge increase in price...and even then the Anti-Cables were more like music. Wire has to work with the components you have. A meter of interconnect will sound different with different components. All we can do as audiophiles is to experiment ourselves with our own systems, since MIT or any brand will sound WAY different in my system than in yours. The joy of this hobby is not to read reviews and abide by them, but to find out what floats our own boats.
Kijanki, you say; "I re trimmed my Satoris with new spades and discovered that wire has inside isolated strands (9 I think) + 1 strand that is not solid but has inside again 9 very small strands." and I found from the AZ website; “An incrementally layered, multiple strand, non-extruded, pure "zero crystal" copper cable designed for amplified signal delivery in perfect phase with absolute spectral and tonal coherence..." AZ seems a little vague compared to other manufacturers who more specifically report their cable construction or even provide pictures, so I have been curious to their construction. Are saying you found the Satori's use both solid core and stranded PCOCC copper wire? I am finding a number of well-respected cable manufacturers using stranded wire for both IC's and speaker cables. To my ears, there seem to be trade-offs with stranded wire being maybe a bit more dynamic and solid core being maybe a bit more clear/pure sounding. Maybe Robert Lee has found a good sonic trade-off? I have been recently using and enjoying his Double Barrel speaker cables in 5 ft. length. I have been considering DIY speaker cables, but it is hard to justify when the Double Barrel's sound so good. I am using DIY IC's of solid silver, some made from the raw Jupiter wire, and others made from bulk premanufactured wire with a 23awg twisted pair and foamed Teflon tape dielectric. My total cable expenditure with that set-up is about 6.5 percent of equipment cost and my system sounds as good or better than ever.
Mitch - Double Barrel is very good and it is step above Satori Shotgun (so I heard). Satori wires look like Teflon isolated strands + one wire consisting of strands of isolated (enamel) magnet wires. I was looking for Silver Reference II ICs (about $450) while I found AZ Absolute 0.5m XLR for $600. I could not refuse that - if I did I would have bad dreams for the rest of my life, I'm sure.
Stringreen makes a good point about no correlation between cost and performance. A lot depends on the equipment and how it reacts to cables. For example, I just changed to an all Linn system and very entry level kimber works much better than the more expensive and exotic Purist cables I used to own. People need to audition and be careful before blowing $$$ on cables they dont need.
There is also the question of the different parameters that you have to put in the equation (ie country of origin, new vs used etc). For example, on the basis of "retail prices" my cabling would be c. 35% of my system's overall value. They come from a US manufacturer, and their prices are much higher here in Europe (vice versa for European cables in the US). I bought all of them used and sometimes at 1/3 or less of their original value - which would drop the overall percentage to under 20%. This is the important factor - what it actually costs you in real terms.
My friend bought Honda Civic and he just loves this car. He believes that there is no correlation at all between performance/quality and the price. I told him that quality difference between Rolls-Royce and his Honda Civic is pretty much the same as between Honda Civic and a Yugo.
Wouldn't you agree that there is SOME correlation between price and sound of cables - or is it completely random and things like purity of metal, capacitance, inductance etc. are not important at all. Can good sounding cable be made of dirtiest, cheapest copper (copper oxide is a semiconductor)?
I find a greater difference between cables and powercords then between components (up to a point). Example I have found a 3k interconnect that makes a greater net difference then going from a 3k pre amp to a 6k pre amp. In fact cables and power cords can allow a system to image in a way that no amount of money spent on electronics can achieve! I'd say 1/3 of a system should be invested in cables. Not sure where the 10% rule came from, but I just don't hear the same improvement between say a 2.5k amp and a 6k amp with cheap cables as when that extra money is spent upgrading the cables. Seeking performance upgrades thru component upgrades is far more expensive then experimenting with cables.
Just thought i'd check and see what's up after "dropping out" of the scene for several years. Coming up on 9 years since this thread was started and not much has changed. Mostly still a matter of personal preference based on system synergy from what i'm seeing here. Since the owner of the system is the only one that has to be happy with what he spends or hears ( perceived or reality ), i guess that's all that matters. Sean <
I make my own speaker cables using the same ingrediants as Kimber 8TC. Waste of money I did the cables, cones, cords and pucks. Put your money where it counts. In order 1)poweramp/preamp 2)speakers, 2)room treatment-2)speaker placement 3)-sub woofer 4)turntable-cart 5)cd player 6)blue ray 7)speaker cables 8)interconnects
Ooh, i think it`s hard, this cable quest! I didn`t now that i had spend more than 10% off my hole system in cables, before i sat down and thought about it. And is it worth it?????YES, i think it is. Over the last half year, iv`e have had the priviliges of trying a lot of different cables out there, in different price class. Acoustic Zen, Harmony Tech, Dyrholm Audio, Lavardin cables. I listening to these cables for a lot of hours, and i was in a position where i just could choose whatever i wan`t, regardles to price( they where all demo, so therefor cheeper)......I endeed up with AZ cables, wich is not an inexpensive cable, but value a lot for the money. I know some people think thats is crazy spending so much on cables. My interconnect cable between my Rega Saturn CD and my amplifier Lavardin IT cost almost the same as the Saturn, and iv`e have wondered if this maybe was a bit to much to offer for that cable, but no again. My set-up sounded nice to begin with, but after all the new cables it`s in a another ball game (much better). But soon i will try to unplug all these new cables, and getting back to where i started, just to listen to the (maybe) huge different( or not)???? Then i will write again!
My system is resolving enough that anyone can tell apart same models of a power cable treated at different cryogenic facilities. My system is gentle enough that it can successfully play any recording of any musical genre regardless of recording quality.
This is most astounding post I have ever read on Audiogon. Also the most unbelievable. Congratulations for such a unique achievement.
Irv
PS - you don't actually believe this stuff, do you?
I've got about $5000 msrp worth of cable in a system worth about $25,000 msrp. Fortunately I did not pay that amount, but I do feel the cables in my system have really allowed the components they are connected to to shine.
Say what you will about cables making a difference, but these have been a major step towards happiness in my rig... as high as that cost proportion may be.
I agree with Gopher. Cables have made a noticeable difference in my system, too. I think the 10% rule still applies (I see this thread started almost 10 years ago). But no more than 10%.
Hi , its all relative, I have picked out expensive cables in blind tests over and over again, from interconnects to speaker cables to digital cables, but the main difference is I have not always liked the more expensive cables better, once you get the ego out of the way and stop careing about brand name or cost it is amazing the differences you can hear, for good or bad.
Of course, we all know that there are ways to reduce the cost of your cables. Shopping on Audiogon is definitely one good way. Using the lending library at The Cable Company is another one because you don't have to spend money on so many cables before you find the ones you like. There are also a lot of DIY'ers out there figuring it out for themselves.
I have gone throught trying alot of cabling in my systems throught the years. All the models from Cardas, Kimber, Acoustic zen, Harmonic Tech, Analysis Plus. For me I have found that cabling sourced from recording industry is very good indeed. Mogami Quad 2534 and Vann damme Ultra Pure Silver Plated cable for interconnect works great and for me holds it own against cables I have owned that retail for up to $1500.00 for 1 meter pair. its really inexpensive and allows money to go to better equipment. Vann Damme studio grade speaker wire, the 9 gauge stuff you can get from Bryston sounds as good or better than any fancy expensive cables I have used. on the hifi side of things the best bang for buck for inteconnects is DHlabs Silversonic Air matrix. I will now never spend anymore cash on cables. My thinking is that if you want to hear what the recording engineers wanted you to you should use the cables they used making the music, anything different is colouration.
"My thinking is that if you want to hear what the recording engineers wanted you to you should use the cables they used making the music, anything different is coloration"
Jamo1,
So, if cables used for recording are coloring shall I use the same cable to color 2x or shall I use the most transparent/neutral cables?
IMHO studio equipment has no bearing on my home system otherwise I might start using distorting VOX guitar amps for playback.
What they produced is a starting point for me. Judging system's transparency/neutrality is whole another subject but I would use studio cables, or any cables, only if they sound better to me in my system. My AZ Satori has some roundness/fullness that compensates lean lower midrange of my class D amp.
Hi Kijanki, My point was that the cables used in a studio should be the most neutral to the playback of the music that was being produced and that using something other than that used in the recording studio in your home equipment can add colouration or change the end result. At one point A&M Studios was entirely wired with the Mogami quad wire that I have mentioned. The producers like Daniel Lanois etc. heard everything throught that wire, voices, guitars,drums everything when they recorded and engineered the music. Thats why I gave it a try. I get what you are saying about matching and compensating for equipment room acoustics etc. For me this stuff has worked fine with everything I have tried it on and I a-b compared it with my expensive wire before selling it. In my case it has worked out great because the money I got from selling my higher end cables went toward better equipment. For example, my Moon lp 5.3 @ $900.00 used with a $30.00 Vann damme silver coated XLR sounds way better than a Project Phonobox SE II @$300.00 with a $600.00 used interconnect of whatever Cardas golden ref, AZ silver ref etc. Anyhow I made the suggestion and if people give it a try I think some will agree and benefit.
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