Cable Costs Relative to System

I think cable is one of the biggest(if not THE biggest) ripoffs in audio. Yes, wire makes a difference. And often, the difference is not insignificant. But, the markup on the product is beyond astronomical. I am always pushing for the kind of cable that comes in under $500, that is as good as ANYTHING out there. Even then, these companies are making money hand over fist. Before you buy from the really overpriced companies, check out companies like Coincident, HomeGrown Audio, and Silver Audio(along with the others we see here). To my ears, they are as good as you can do for under $1500, and they are all less than $300. I think you do NOT have to spend over $500 for almost any cable to get world class performance.

I admit that the hyperexpensive cable can make a positive difference in certain situations. But, I want to stand up and say that to think these products are better in the vast majority of circumstances is asinine. To think so is to admit that to have bought in to the hype. The hype is the reason that the "free market" does not weed out these companies. And to look at things objectively, it is not only the sole reason for not only their existence, but the fact that these companies have flourished. Now becoming firmly entrenched. In fact, the business is so plentiful and lucrative, new cable companies crop up at an incredible rate. There is no good explanation for the cost of most of these products, with the exception of things like greed. I used to be a chemist, developing thick film materials for the high tech electronics industry(conductors, resistors, dielectrics, conformal coatings, etc.). Some of the companies we sold to are in the highest echelon of high end audio. We won awards every day from companies with household names that used our products to make their products successful. The price structure for Product A(a low cost silver-palladium based resistor line - 0.1/1.0/10.0 Ohm)was that Asian companies bought it for $0.40/gram, American/European companies were charged $4.00/gram, and the US government/military/US companies(yes, the same who bought it for commercial usage)using it in military applications paid $40.00/gram. Of course, each carried a different product number, complete with different product literature/specs. But, the material was all culled from the same production lots. The whole thing was obscene. The government knew, and didn't care. They thought it was funny, even. As a US taxpayer, you best believe I let them know about it. They laughed it off; as if I was telling them the sky was blue. The fact is that companies charge the going rate. Selling for less often loses you orders. Buyers often feel your product is inadequate. I would love to hear a good explanation regarding the electrical/material science/R&D/manufacturing reasons of why a copper interconnect would retail for over $500. And as Arthur Salvatore notes on his website, these cable companies do not even manufacture their products. They buy them for cents on the hundreds of dollars, and pass the product along to us. While I do not pretend that my sub $500 cable list will beat every cable, in every system, in every circumstance, for every audiophile, I submit that this list will compete with ANYTHING sold in this industry. This list should not be thought of as containing great budget alternatives to the great cables, but GREAT CABLES on their own merit. Equal to their more expensive brethren. My list today(products I have heard - I do hope others chime in with their nominations) includes AudioQuest's old line(I saw 1m Lapis go for $112.50 here on auction Wednesday night), Analysis Plus, Coincident, Goertz, HomeGrown Audio, Kimber Select(copper) and the KimberKable line, Musical Fidelity's Nu Vista line, Red Rose Music, and Silver Audio. And no my system does not retail for $50K. But I would also assert that I can build a $5K system(mine does cost much more than that) that is more satisfying than many a $50K system. That statement in itself will also raise the indignation of many.

Well, JD, I must tip my hat to you for turning this thread from one of trivial bickering to actual discussion. That's a RARE thing indeed in both Audiogon and Audio Asylum. As I alluded to above, you are a special audiophile, and we are graced by your renewed presence on this site.

Unfortunately, I have left the "scientific community" for what I feel are greener pastures from a family perspective. Though, I must say that things would have been interesting had I continued on down that path.

You brining up nanotechnology is something that really piqued memories in me. In 2000, before I completely made the leap into the field of software engineering, a group of scientists from the University of New Mexico brought me out to Albuquerque to discuss bringing me aboard a new company they had just launched. Their angle was a revolutionary process producing conductive nanomaterials such as silver, gold, platinum, palladium, etc. To be quite frank, the improvement over existing materials was on the level of orders of magnitude. I must say the prospects were fascinating.

What we soon found out was that though there was far more than tremendous interest in the products they could offer, they were seriously deficient in getting value for their hard work and creativity. The money was actually in the products produced in the next step, which is where a fair amount of my knowledge lay, and what they soon realized was a way to get them there. Over the course of the four days I was there, both sides quickly saw the potential for a most synergistic relationship.

In the end, I demurred, as I felt the risk/reward balance was not to my liking - American manufacturing being what it is today. But, I harbor serious regret today all the same - the ability to obtain a PHD in chemistry/material science and to apply what I had available to me towards audio in the long run.

In truth, of the folks I met along the way in the field, only a VERY small number were audiophiles, and my feeling is that by being in the field, and uniting folks of the type of passion and dedication such as you, JD, a lot of progress could have been made in the past five years.

Briefly, from what I have seen, I possess quite a radical view of the way things work. My two theories are amazingly simplistic, but it takes me a while to convey them to folks, no matter how small or large their scientific background is. First, material interactions are nothing more than playing with puzzles - locks and keys. Some keys fit some locks, and some don't. Not much more to know than that. Time and experience builds the understanding in a person to know what keys go with what locks. Secondly, surface area/particle size is THE most important factor once the key/lock relationship has been made. The more surface area (smaller particle size - ie. nanotechnology), the more of what I call "soldiers" (who do the work) are available.

I don't want to go too much further here, but what most people see in nanotechnology is the ability of having more "soldiers" available to them. And while THAT opens up things that we have always dreamed about, the real power, which most fail to see, is the key/lock applications. By being able to "dope" a material's properties in ways never before possible in this world, we can achieve the creation of a geometrically larger number of materials. The beauty being that we can do this with breathtaking savings.

As an example, a ratio of 55% Palladium/45% Silver makes the best conductors/resistors you can obtain, from a temperature coefficient of resistance point of view. The resistance varies almost not at all over a temperature curve. Further, these happen to be uniquely environmentally resistant as well. For the most part, the audio world has not been exposed to palldium, but in the limited instances it has, subjectiver results have been extraordinarily positive. The BIG downside is cost - Pd being over $1000/ounce, and silver being $9/ounce.

But, what if I could obtain the same or similar properties by using incredibly small amounts of Pd? With nanotechnology, the opportunity to make small amounts look like large amounts opens up possibilities that are breathtaking.

In the end, like any craft, it is the ART, not the science that is where the power lies. The science is always there, but it is the heart of the person who steers the ship to achievement via using what is before him, and solving problems.

Unfortunately, what some perceive as anger or bitterness coming from me stems from the proponderance of snake oil salesmen in audio. Folks who offer NOTHING which takes the craft forward in any direction, yet merely rebadge products manufactured by a third party with multithousand percent profit margins. Truly, I see this as borderline criminal. What is really at the root of my feelings is the potential for the scientific and engineering communities to produce REAL understanding, and ultimately improvement, in the products offered to audiophiles, and do so at what I consider fair costs to the end user. Unfortunately, we seem to be lacking a connection between the two fields to produce such a thing.

Well, I guess it's funny, but it's now almost a full four years after I submitted that post, but I feel even STRONGER in that opinion now. The price of wire is, in the majority of cases, set by the type of artificial means Mapleleafs3 laid out.

As an example, I personally have a friend who sells a cable for $99 that the rest of the high end audio world gladly pays $1400 for. It's EXACTLY the same cable, apart from the solder and terminations. And, before anyone asks, the soldering job of my friend actually surpasses the more expensive cable. Go figure. He even feels dirty about selling it for $99, that's the kind of profit we're talking about.

Another anecdote, a dearly departed friend of mine used to tell me about a friend of his who is one of the longtime biggest cable guys in this hobby. I mean, beyond household name. Well, my friend, who was also beyond a household name, wound up needing an extra interconnect at a high end audio show a while back. His cable friend had one of his employees fetch one to save the day. When my friend asked his buddy what the cost of the cable was, as he wanted to reimburse him, the answer he received was, "The cost is $3000. But, don't worry, it doesn't cost me anywhere near that. In fact, why don't you just keep it..." Hmmm, didn't sound like something he was too worried about.

Again, different wire SOUNDS different. It's even critically important. But, use your head, and you'll get the best for a lot less than the rest pay.

JD, thanks for your post here. I also feel endebted to your kind words. Further, in watching what part of your audio journey you have been kind enough to share with us over the years, I feel that there are few people in this hobby more devoted, dedicated, and methodical in wringing increasingly better performance out of every part of one's system than you.

As you said, we agree that wire has an effect on the sonics of a system. I even say the impact is substantial. In my opinion, wire is certainly a component, and when I really break things down, from our front end to our loudspeakers, our components are basically wire (think about it!).

And, as you have said, wire is overpriced. There are myriad reasons as to how this has come about, and I don't want to make this post overly long, so I will not go into why I feel we are in the fix we are today. But, I will say that if you really look into the source material of a lot of the cabling we use, the true cost is pennies on the dollars that we pay. That is not a universal truth by any means. Certain materials are of such purity that one could envision this level of pricing, though I am pretty well convinced only a very few, if any, companies are using this type of wire. Also, for companies such as Nordost, who have had to acquire the tooling and machinery to manufacture their own cable, the cost of paying for such equipment must be factored into the price otherwise they'll soon find themselves out of business.

But, again, if you put a list of the Top 10 cables in this marketplace over the past decade together, I'm fairly confident that this cable that I listed above would be on it. It's a Stereophile Recommended Component. All I'm saying is that I have a friend who sells the SAME EXACT stuff for $99/meter. I'd be more than happy to share the names with you offline of both the well known company and my friend...

Take care always,
Joe