advice of fellow a'goners regd optimal break in period and is the break in period dependent on playback volume or amount of
gain. I will re-iterate what I normally say to these threads; well designed audio electronics equipment and cables should NOT drift significantly (i.e. audibly) between the time you plug it in and a few hundred hours. Of course, things age with time, heat, stress etc. but useful product lives are usually measured in numbers of years... As to reported vast differences after a few hundred hours => either this is perception as the ears/brain are more familiar with the "sound" (it is well known that musical hearing ability can be improved with training/repetition) or it implies a badly designed piece of gear...(linearity, stability and reliability of ouput signal over time is a primary requirement of an audio product) |
Guidocorona, laudable belief. Unfortunately reality is impervious to our wishes, beliefs, opinions or otherwise. Things either are or are not, regardless of what we believe they 'should' truly be IMHO, in reality, one can select high quality electronics equipment that does not drift measurably or audibly in as little as a few hundred hours; equipment that can function accurately from day one and for many years. Laudable make believe perhaps but I honestly think this is attainable from many respectable electronics manufacturers. |
Break-in has nothing to do with the quality of components I have nothing more I can say to those who claim dramatic audible break-in changes, which can drive people nearly nuts, have nothing to do with the design "quality" of components; I beg to differ on what constitutes "quality" that's all. |
could you tell us what you mean by 'quality of components' Obviously there are many things that define quality and this may differ from person to person as to what they are looking for (THD+N, TIM, Channel Separation, power, headroom, etc.). I simply included reliability and consistency of response over time as a factor that I regard as one of the important qualities in an audio component. A tube that changes response over a short time of a few hundred hours and ultimately dies shortly after that, is not the kind of quality I would be satisfied with. Others may be happy to put up with these issues and lack of consistency in sound in order to benefit from the fantastic sound of a particular finicky tube. Their definition of high quality differs from mine that's all (weighted to what they perceive as the "best sounding tube") The list of components that do not audibly drift in a dramatic way with time is far too long for me to mention. Of course, components do age and they do fail but often they last a good many years. A small drift in power supplies as equipment ages is also well known (which is why components are generally designed to operate accurately within a tolerance range). |
Perhaps you would care to enlighten us with just 5 or 10 of the most well known and respected examples. If I gave you well known names from respected engineering and manufacturering bands like Sony, Denon, Pioneer, and Yamaha would this help? Since it is not that difficult to design stable and reliable audio electronics these days then there is really no "enlightenment" to be had. |
Yamaha, Sony, Denon, Pioneer.....do these guys use the same quality parts as say ARC? They make designs mostly using transistors. The pre-amp you refer to uses tubes. The quality of the individual parts cannot be directly compared as the designs are quite different. Tube preamps run at much higher voltages and need higher quality (rated) components. |
Guidocorona,
I gave you a few brand names of a few consistent sounding, respected engineering and manufacturing firms (mass produced) that are well known reliable products. If, as you say yourself, your gear changes response or requires an extensive break-in of over 200 and up to 1200 hours then that would not be my preferred choice that's all. However, I don't agree nor would I dare suggest that your fantastic gear are just useless boat anchors or that you should dump your truck because of this. Peace. We probably have different interpretations of the differences heard from repeated playing of music. (what I call getting habituated or new insights from repetitive playing of music may actually all be "break-in", certainly I believe that ears/brain can be trained to become more discerning and repetition is a big part of it - so the listening experience is never identical) |
Atmasphere, Shadorne, are you saying IOW that you hear changes but you attribute them to yourself rather than the gear? Often yes. Depending on the last time I had a cold the changes can be significant. Most often it is the result of focusing on something specific or different in a familiar repeated track. I suspect we get very accustomed to sounds and have a pretty good sonic memory (for example an actor's voice is instantly recognizable on a cartoon)...so changing a component as significant as a speaker can be quite disconcerting for several weeks as memory adjusts to the new way it sounds (versus previous familiar sound). For example, when I upgraded mains from ATC 20's to ATC 100's I actually had to make an adjustment to the reduction in harmonic distortion in the extreme LF at higher SPL levels. Initially, it was disconcerting to me that a great big box speaker seemed to have less bass (but incredible clarity & punch) compared to a modest sized bookshelf with already a lean bass sound (compared to most fare). On the face of it, I had become accustomed to more bass warmth or harmonic distortion of the little driver when it was driven hard at higher SPL. (This effect cannot have been break in as the 100's were already well used). |
Did you measure distortion levels and how do you know it is harmonic distortions? I did not make measurements but harmonic distortion is quite easily recognized for its warmth, woody or resonant sound. I doubt ATC would make a more expensive big box speaker used in studio mix and mastering with higher distortion at "loud" SPL levels as a modest ATC book shelf near-field. I could be wrong though. Neither speaker sounded harsh ( telltale signs of excessive odd harmonics ) except at excessive SPL levels that were beyond rock concert levels. All speakers introduce lots of distortion. Given similar quality in design/drivers, bigger speakers tend to play louder cleaner (a general rule for all speakers and not just ATC). |
Gregm,
I have a very old pdf of a paper that Billy Woodman published which explains his driver construction philosophy. It includes plots of speaker distortion and discusses IMD distortion and the advatanges of active versus passive designs. Unfortunately, speaker distortion measurements are pretty sobering stuff - I doubt most audiophiles realize the relative amounts of distortion coming from speakers compared to the rest of their gear. (Certainly not those who spend $4 K on speaker cables and an amplfier and only $1 K on speakers.) |
Methinks that they are hearing differences due to frequency response differences which are quite discernable even over 10%THD of the speakers.
Salut, Bob P. Agreed. I expect you are referring to the higher output impedance of a tube (with ouput transformer) coupled with a typical bumpy speaker load. This results in a different frequency response/presentation from a tube/speaker combo versus an SS/Speaker combo. |
Gregm,
IMHO, although high damping factors is a "pushed" feature of SS amps....I think it is really over rated.
Frankly the driver Qes and Qms coupled with the box design almost entirely dominates driver response...above a damping factor of about 5 a higher damping factor really makes almost negligable difference to the driver response, as the voice coil and magnet size dominate the driver electrical damping. (A good speaker design should be as close to critically damped as can be achieved given a host of other compromises)
I suspect most differences heard with low damping factors are more related to frequency presentation, as a high output imepdance device acts as a filter when coupled with a variable load (speaker).... |
so, the perception of a change in sound of a component is anecdotal and subjective. Any electrical design engineer will tell you much the same thing. No respectable engineer would deliberately design an amp with a significant drift in electrical response characteristics over 100's of hours. A lot of design effort is spent ensuring reliable and consistent sounding products (feedback loops not only provide great linearity but also allow for much less variation in response to environmental conditions such as power supply drift/changes, age and temperature drift during warm up). This is just one of the many reasons that modern electronics designers mostly use SS amps with feedback for low voltage level applications (tubes are still used in some very high voltage applications). |
Atmasphere, 'low voltage applications' - do you mean like phono signals Actually I meant in general run-of-the-mill electronic industry applications, as transistors are not very reliable for high voltage applications where for example krytrons might be used (although transistors have got better at high voltage over the years). I know you don't like negative feedback but I am sure you will at least agree that feedback is the electronics industry "cheap and easy" solution to achieve better linearity with high speed transistors. A high quality tube (much more linear than a transistor)with less negative feedback and more carefully selected components is another alternative approach, which works too (some say better for audiophile applications). I didn't mean to trigger a debate of tubes vs SS (apologies if it sounded that way) all I really tried to show was that engineers favor configurations that produce consistent results (i.e. minimize response drift whatever the cause). IMHO, significant break-in response changes over long periods are not desirable and that good power supply and component designs should minimze these issues, in many instances to the point of inaudibilty under a variety of conditions. |
Drubin,
What I was trying to say was that designers will try to minimize the effects of individual resistor, transformer, capacitor & inductor drift due to age and thermal effects. Where a component is critical then a designer may choose to use a higher quality capacitor for, for example. Balanced circuits are an example of this approach. Feedback loops are also used to minimize drift. |
Guidocorona,
A kryton is an example of a high voltage application of a tube that is all; an application where a tube is a more reliable device than a transistor. I was trying to qualify the meaning of my previous comment of "low voltage applications" where transistors are often the cheap and preferred choice for designers.
Sorry if I offended you. Perhaps you missed the thread, which might explain the side track comments. I fully agree krytons are not related directly to audio applications. Although I suspect you will admit that reliabilty and response drift over time/heat/use is of concern in many electronics applications and not just audio. An undesirable response drift being analagous to extremly lengthy audible break-in time. |
The components' tolerances can affect the de-emphasis; many of the ("good")resistors used are +/- 5% i.e. 10% total rated shift... Just a clarification for others reading the thread (not a correction); These are manufacturing tolerances between individual lumped elements such as a resistor. These figures do not represent the amount of thermal drift, drift with aging of the component. These values are not necessarily indicative of the accuracy of an amplifier. However, if you were to simply change a resistor without finding a resistor with a very close match to the existing resistor then you could expect a sudden change in circuit response of this kind of magnitude. |
I am also somewhat amazed as to why you equate the phenomena of burning-in to something that is deliberately engineered? I assure you that engineers do have to worry about these kinds of things when designing equipment and not just the performance of the device on the day it leaves the factory. Often the part selection and design criteria are heavily influenced by the desired products useful life span. Nobody wants a "lemon" out there that hundreds of customers complain about; the cost to make a manufacturing recall to get equipment to perform properly as originally specified to customers; the cost to reputation. |
Dopogue says, Shadorne has missed few opportunities (in the related posts I've seen) to repeat his break-in-is-all-in-the-mind nonsense It is your prerogative to believe that it is all nonsense. Dopogue adds, It clearly takes a lot to penetrate HIS mind...
...the frustration in trying to keep him from spreading this mischief Thankfully, you and many others do a great job of limiting the mischief I am causing! |
I am rather enjoying your astute game Glad to here it. This hobby should be enjoyed! These forums are consistently bombarded by fears of significant detrimental effects on the sound quality; (jitter, cables, break-in, warm-up, house electrical wiring, power cords, interconnects, speaker cables, gaps in digital waveforms, clocks, transports, etc.). I often find myself trying to point out that many of these fears (of detrimental effects) are greatly exaggerated out of all proportion. This climate of "fear" is unhealthy, IMHO, as it distorts what is important from what is relatively insignificant, and, even worse, all these fears may intefere with what is absolutely critical: to sit back and enjoy the music! |
Paul,
My point was that audio engineers design things to sound consistent and significant audible changes ascribed to lengthy burn-ins (after months of listening) is not very desirable.
If I understand you and others, you are saying that this has nothing to do with choice of material or circuit design but is the intrinsic property of most wire and most of the electrical components typically used; a lengthy break-in, lasting several months, being unavoidable and independent of the design or material choices.
I can't see how to reconcile these views - so I propose we agree to disagree. As I am blessed with tin ears, I am blissfully unaware of these minute changes and simply can't imagine how frustrating it must be to be able to hear them. I tend to think of Edgar Allan Poe Usher family type thing ;-) Admittedly this last remark being a bit of hyperbole - for amusement - no offense intended. |
