break-in--bane or boon ??

donjr is correct. YOU adjust to the sound of components over time; there are not radical changes to the sound of a system.

Read my "Audiophile Law #6: Thou Shalt Not Overemphasize Burn In" at Dagogo.com. I would post the link but it seems when I do it is quickly banished to some nether region. Do a search and you'll find it quickly.

The upshot of the testing was clear; components do not "burn in," no matter how much such a process is popularized. 300 hours for burn in is a complete waste of time. If the sound is not correct, change something. Active changes to the rig are FAR more productive than pining away for a change.

Ignore this advice and you will be wasting your time, pining for different sound which you could be actively pursuing but instead "waiting for it" to happen. Ridiculous! :(

I'm not interested in wasting weeks for a supposed change. I make the changes happen! I can take a new system and in one evening get it several steps closer to my ideal. I don't sit around and hope for it to change; that's absurd! It would be like hoping for a car to improve its handling.
The truth is that if you wait for a system to change you are effectively dumbing down your expectations, settling for less - the initially disappointing sound.

Wine improves with time, but not components. I can get more change in five minutes with a cable swap than the supposed 300 hour wait. I can tune a rig in 1.5 hours with a test of four sets of discrete opamps. So, why should I sit and be discontented for 300 hours? Ridiculous! :(

To date I have had no one, professional or amateur, contest my findings. I also have found no one who has replicated the test. I suggest those who doubt my little test, who ardently belive in Burn In, get double components and do the informal testing. I can tell you what will happen; you'll not be able to hear the difference. :)

Trelja, some interesting insights/arguments but I would not accept hand-wired/made units made over time with possible variances in wiring, solder, caps, tubes, etc. to be close to two mass-produced units. They may be made on the same template, but that hardly makes them identical. A variance in sound, nuanced but there, would be expected.

Perhaps a clarification is in order; I'm not saying that things such as wire, caps, etc. cannot change over time. I am saying that IF they change at all the human typically cannot hear it - it is beneath the human hearing threshold. IOW, it doesn't matter experientially if it is changing or not, to the ear it won't be detected. Hence, my casual comment that it is "not changing." A pair of jeans would obviously be above such a threshold.

I believe I made it clear in my article that transducers were excepted; when a physical motion of a driver is involved there obviously is a break in period.

Regarding coupling capacitors, I have not read the article/test you refer to. Are you saying, then, that the PC test of the changed cap was demonstrated to have made an audible change in the sound of a component. Or, is this an extension logically. IOW, I don't care if capactitor looks different electronically when used/broken in. I care about if the component will sound different.

In my instance of use of two different sets of cdp and integrated amp I had one set which was not burned in and one which was. I would assume the caps in the well used set would perhaps measure differently according to your illustration. However, there was no sonic change in hearing the two side by side. In the end I don't care if you show me a chart of ten things which supposedly measure differently when new vs. used; I care if the sound is changed over time/use. I have not found that to be the case.

I don't think you've made your case convincingly.

Don't lump me in with cable skeptics! I'll quote your last comment, "The subject of break in tracks much like cabling. Even today I meet so many audiophiles who maintain that "wire's just wire." I begrudge them not. Likewise, should you continue to go forth feeling that same way about break-in, I understand"

I would assert that the issue of Break In does not track much like cabling. Cabling is easily demonstrable in a good rig over a very short period of time, even a couple minutes. Break in is not. The one is a matter of swapping out parts, the other a perception based on purported changes over days/weeks/months to the same parts. That is a world of difference.

I do not see any absolute correlation between a person's acceptance/denial of cable efficacy and their perspective on Burn In. I would assume that there might be a mix of audiophiles, some who accept/reject both, and others who hold to one or the other only. In fact, the primary determinant of whether an audiophile accepts or rejects them both likely would be their hearing acuity! :)

Mrtennis, practical answers are usually straightforward. You don't need a complex test to ascertain whether you hear a difference. If the difference between used/new identical components is not discernible then you are wasting your time with Burn In. If the difference is so vanishingly small that you can't be certain it's in effect, then you are wasting your time with it.

Only if the difference would be "wow!" like a different component had been used would it be worth paying attention to. As it is, I get noticeable changes when I replace one or two power cords, or a single digital cable, or a set of ICs. When my friend and I heard the new/used comparison there was nothing different sonically. Ergo, waste of time fretting about Burn in.

The test is simple, and more people should simply do it if they are serious about getting down to the bottom of the issue. :)

I know someone with a "Cable Burner" and I may borrow it and rerun the test. That would be interesting. Thanks for the idea. :)

BTW, my argument is in regards to simple utilization of a product, not use of tweaks or gagdets to enhance them; that is another can of worms. However, they could be tested quite simply as well.

I think it's time to get my hands on that Cable Burner.

John, we were listening to a stereo attentively, not getting chased by a Rhino. I think you are more than a bit off with your analysis. :(

The systems I build are capable of revealing instantly changes such as one digital cable being replaced, or one pair of interconnects, or a set of Opamps being rotated in or out of the DAC. Proponents of Burn In suggest it is a huge, profound, etc. difference. Perhaps equatable to a cable change? Hmmm? Or far more, according to them.

So, exactly where did that supposedly huge change go? Was my heart palpitating, my blood pressure sky high such that my senses failed me? How ridiculous! IF there was a difference it would have been easily heard. The fact that it wasn't means one thing obviously - playing gear hour after hour in the hopes of improvement does nothing special to advance a system.

Trelja, nice conversation/argumentation; this is the way it can be on audio forums. :)

You seemed to be indicating there may be variances between hand built units. If there was zero variance, i.e. all two units were built at the same time with doubles of parts, then my point falls to the ground. It seemed, however, that you were referring to units built over a period of time, so I made my point.

I have been consistent all along, and I believe my comments about whether a cap shows signal change is also consistent. My point is that even if it does cause sonic change, 1. Does it pass the threshold of hearing, and 2. Does it show noticeably different sound when compared side by side to a new unit?

My points are quite straightforward, and I believe the only way to resolve the issue is not through logic and argumentation, but by simple comparison of units - which is why I did so. I wanted the answer, not opinion. :)

Regarding your last comment on cabling; Well, there you go. You think I sound like a skeptic, and I think you sound like a subjectivist. :)

The cable skeptic says, "There is no difference between the sound of an assortment of cables." Well, I say there is, and I am not depending upon data to know it.

I'm saying, "There is no demonstrable difference (i.e. audible) between IDENTICAL UNITS over time. You say the data exists, but I have conducted the test and didn't hear it.

The two propositions are not even remotely close. And you will note that the prototypical cable skepetic will not conduct even the most simple listening test. Why? Because they know! I think it's obvious I am willing to conduct the actual listening test.

I actually think people - and now I'm not directing this to you Trelja, but the community - are afraid to suggest that their perceptions can be unreliable over time. It's absurd to think that we have such perfect sonic recall that we can declare definitively that something we heard five weeks ago is changed from what we heard today, even though heard with the same set of gear, as if our perceptions are impervious to change! :(

It was earlier suggested by John that perhaps I was being influenced by anxiety or another psychological effect. Well,what about all those who are hopping in and out of the listening seat? Maybe their blood pressure is lower any given day? Maybe they didn't fight with the spouse and feel less tension, etc. Maybe they are less tired... You want to talk about ANXIETY - how about the guy who really isn't super excited about the sound of his new $XXXX toy, but is desperately hoping 300 hours of Burn In transform it! Can you say heart palpatation as he settles into the chair? Tee hee hee, man, I could run with this argument, but I think I've made my point.

Sorry, it's too simplistic to declare that Burn In is 'real' when it comes to temporally stretched out casual observations. :)

John, you hit the nail on the head when you said, "I DO find the results of your experiment intriguing exactly because they do strike me as counterintuitive. Even more so because so many different components were under test at once - I would've guessed an additive effect, if anything." Precisely; I was expecting somthing, but phhhhht. Nothing but the exact same presentation.

When three different components, including cabling, amp and source do squat for Burn In, I'm done with it as a serious "tool" to improve systems. My attitude now is, if it happens, it happens, but I'm benign to it. IOW, if I want change I make it happen, I don't wait for it. :)