I was planning to buy a Rel subwoofer but stumbled across a good deal for a SVS sb-2000 pro so I decided to give it a try. Turns out that the the pre-outs on my integrated amp aren’t pre-outs at all but are rec outs (should have put on my glasses). The Svs doesn’t have high level inputs and my amp doesn’t have pre-outs so I’m screwed right? Guess it wasn’t such a great deal after all.
I think bass is one of the last things audiophiles understand
That's for sure. Virtually all of them are still stuck in the understanding exemplified in this thread. OP went from one sub to another, swapping when he should have been adding.
Low bass is near impossible to do, for the simple reason you cannot fit 50 foot long bass waves into a 20 foot long room. The wave reflects and comes back and cancels itself before it even gets going. For many years I tried everything and never heard anything work properly and had given up. The physics are just too daunting.
Until a couple years ago on this site Tim (noble100) and some others were talking about a Swarm or Distributed Bass Array. Do a search for these if you want to understand low bass. Read everything you can find by Tim and Duke. Read the research paper and doctoral thesis that started it all.
While you are at it check out the dates of the papers and discussions. Then reflect on how slow people are to change and learn and adopt new ways of doing things, even when clearly superior. Everyone who has been on this site more than 2 years knows all this. Half a dozen of them should have chimed in by now saying don't swap, add. Instead, crickets.
I think bass is one of the last things audiophiles understand
Duke, Tim, DBA. Now you know how to not be one of those audiophiles.
I think bass is one of the last things audiophiles understand
I remember a time before subwoofers. Never had a sub nor needed it til 15-20 yrs ago. But I remember back in the late 70's early 80's when the notion of taming down the bass so as to get a cleaner sound and better midrange. Then over time it seemed that bass became so unimportant that it was pretty much stripped from the mains. my speakers specs say 20-20K. But without the sub the are sorely lacking in bass. Midrange to die for but little real bass...especially for R&R.But WITH the subs they are fabulous. So we lost bass, then we created a new business for sub woofers. They tell me this is progress
I had one of the old Rel subs. I rebuilt the amp and the woofer needed to be replaced at about 20 years. I ordered one from Volt in the UK, they still make the same driver. It was a good sub.
I think bass is one of the last things audiophiles understand so I’m glad there are so many subwoofer experts on this site.
The REL b3 may be a 15 year old design but the one I brought home today looks great and sounds better. I was able to get it to blend with my Sonus Faber pretty easily and it truly does disappear from the room. You shouldn’t be so quick to dismiss vintage audio gear. I have owned and enjoyed some equipment almost as old as I am and most of it worked better than I do. I am really happy with my current setup which was put together on a pretty tight budget.
I own a pair of REL T/7i subs and a pair of SVS 3000 Micro subs. They are similar in size, but the Micro's are a bit smaller…an eleven inch cube. The T/7i has a single front-firing 8" active driver with a 10" passive driver on the bottom while the Micro's use dual opposing 8" active drivers.
I got the Micro's because I've been waiting for ages for SVS to make a subwoofer that's designed for audiophiles with dedicated 2-channel setups instead of the home theater behemoths that dominate their product-line. I was not expecting the Micro's to give my beloved T/7i subs much competition, but after living with them for a few months, I actually prefer the sound of my system with the Micro's.
I was using the high-level inputs with the T/7i, which I prefer, but my preamp happens to have s 2nd pair of outputs that can be used for subs, so no complications with hook-up. In both cases, I'm running my main speakers full-range, but controls on the SVS enable better integration than I could achieve with the REL's.
Before this, I did try the SVS SB2000, but I could never get good integration with them for 2-channel use, so they went back. The 3000 Micro's are completely different and definitely keepers. Most reviewers who have evaluated the new T/7x and 3000 Micro prefer the former. Perhaps I would too, but in my system, the Micro's pull out ahead of the T/7i's.
Loft Wide Shot with SVS 3000 Micro Subs
Loft from the listening position
SVS 3000 Micro next to Orchard Audio monoblock amp
I use an SVS 2000 Pro sub with my JBL L100 Classic speakers and I have gotten them to blend really well together. They are a very musical subwoofer if you connect it correctly and use the SVS software to control the sub. I spent close to a month dialing it in, made many notes, trial and error and got the sound “just right” for my taste. You are blaming the sub when you made the mistake to not check out fully what your receiver has for inputs and outputs. Don’t diss the sub for your own mistakes.
As some have mentioned and I can attest to, SVS is not a very musical subwoofer, but it has lots of "boom boom". I sold my SVS SB1000, sounded terrible with my Monitor Audio speakers. They actually sound better, stand alone without a subwoofer for now. I do have two SVS PB1000’s in my HT setup, and truthfully, great "boom boom" from movies. Enjoy your new Rel B3 and let us know how it works out for you, cheers.
for 2 channel music, don't but an SVS. The Rel is a great sub for 2-channel music, but for 1/3 the price, get a Rythmik F12G with the GR Research driver. It is very close in sound quality to the Rel S line and also has speaker level inputs.
Feeding the signal through the sub and back to the power amp totally destroyed the sound imaging and stage of my system.
On one particular track, Rolling Stone "Symphony For The Devil".....When the power amp is directly into the LS50 speakers, the piano is way right of the right speaker. It so freaky that you would swear there is another speaker to the right of you.
When the signal is routed through the subwoofer, the piano moves TO THE LEFT of the left speaker and seems to be coming from behind the stage!
I tried it back and forth many times. Checked and rechecked my wiring. Used the PHASE control on the subwoofer in every conceivable position (Its variable on this subwoofer)...And the results are always the same. I had three other people listen to it to be sure it wasn't MY ears playing tricks on me.
I'm totally convinced that taking a great audio signal, and routing it through yet another piece of equipment and then back into the power amp and to the speakers is a bad idea.
I have RCA 80Hz High Pass filters that I can insert before the power amp feeding the LS50s......This does not do anything to imaging or sound stage....but with LS50 it muddies up the upper bass. The LS50, IMO, want to be played full range with a subwoofer and let the natural 50Hz roll off play into the sub with the sub crossed over at 70Hz.....Not so with my Magnapan MMGs....They love the bass totally removed under 80-Hz......Different speakers want different subwoofer set ups.
Why can’t you return it to the dealer you purchased it from? They should advertised up front the subs wouldn’t work with your system.
there isn’t anything like REL. I have two S2 SHO’s and they totally changed my system. Their high level connection allows them play like woofer and their LFE connection for Home Theater. I think of SVS for home theater for special effects.
It sounds like you want to keep your front end.
your best bet if you can afford it is to sell the SVS.
I am not a fan of using SVS for music unless you have to listen to music through your home theater.
Buy any REL with the Speaker wire hookups. If your system is fully balanced only connect the black REL speaker wire to a chassis screw. If you are not sure do this anyways. You can not believe the performance you will get from even an older T9 which can be had for under $700. Make sure the Nutrik cable is included. If you can get two of them. You will be amazed how good two REL subs can be. I know this is a pain and there are great solutions to hook up the SVS. Leave SVS and Emotiva to home theater. That is where they typically thrive in DSP land. I hope this helps and you will understand once you buy the REL(s)
I can see the point of keeping full range signals to mains that go as low as yours do, makes sense, and then you simply make sure that the main amp is good for those speakers/space.
my latest kick:
Have you bought a SPL meter and measured what the speakers actually produce, at your listening position. I finally bought an inexpensive one as a tool to adjust and refine location, toe-in, and my vintage speakers have L-Pads for the mid horns and horn tweeters.
You would learn/adjust both the mains and the subs, refining the sub’s crossover as well.
I wish I had bought one many years ago.
doesn’t need to be perfectly calibrated, just indicate SPL in relation to the adjacent frequencies. Or, if you want to know actual rather than relative numbers, calibrate it, they come with instructions.
I have several test lps and cds, I find this test cd is most helpful, among other content: 29 individually selectable frequencies, each track 1 minute long, i.e. not annoyingly short. select, see results, pause, adjust, play; next frequency, it takes a while.
I’ve owned three Rel subs and also own an SVS. The Rel’s have a built in line level adapter. Most Rel fans like to connect their subs off the amps speaker terminals with the speakon connector (Zu has this connection too).
You might consider buying from a local dealer and having them hook it up for you in the future
The 2000 Pro sounds better and is more musical than any Rel at that price point. It is also much easier to integrate and is a very musical sub. I am not an SVS fanboy, although I do have 4 of them. Also, what is the Ops use-case? Music or HT?
If he got a 'Good Deal' on it, then he/she/it can sell it and not lose anything in the process as that sub is now close to the 1k mark.
In my experience, the only sub that has come close to the 2000 Pro at that price point is Rythmic. However, it is much more difficult to integrate but in my opinion some of the Rythmic subs are better.
On another note, there have been a few posters on the forums who bang on about speaker level inputs being superior in every way and that is utter nonsense. We are at a point with any decent sub that proper integration can be achieved in a number of ways. There are no absolutes and anyone banging on in absolute terms should be dismissed summarily.
Of course, that is from my experience, and therefore my opinion.
If it matters to anyone, I have 1x SB 2000 Pro, 1x SB 4000 Ult. and 2x SB 16 Ult. All combined with Dynaudio Contour range in various rooms. I am in the process of selling the 4000 and switching to the Rythmic F12 because imo the 4000 is not a very musical sub and I am Music 85% and HT 15%. I am keeping the 2000 for my office which is same Ratios as above. The dual 16's I am keeping for HT duties in main system, but I am adding dual F12's for Music.
The Op has a few options at their disposal, but calling SVS will most likely yield the best results as their Customer service is exemplary. (As is Rythmic for what it is worth - Not so much for Rel).
you can connect so volume of sub goes up and down with mains, but the best connection for my rel is with the mains at high level. the blend is seamless
I posed this same question to Legacy before connecting sub. Should I high-pass as described by @elliottbnewcombjr? Not with these speakers, they said. With electrostatics or other bass-shy mains, maybe so, but better results with Legacys, which play flat to 31Hz, rolling off to 22, when you use preamp line out to sub, let the mains run full-range, and cross the sub at 31Hz (top of Octave0). @ozzyobviously agrees. Anyhow, I am following this advice with good results. Depends on what mains you are using, however.
I guess the old adage applies here; - - - "you get what you pay for".
There is simply so much information and tech available on the REL website, I'll admit that I'm somewhat shocked that you didn't research before buying. That virtually applies to any and all audio gear. ESPECIALLY a product that you have no reasonable way of auditioning or at least talk to a knowledgeable sales tech, who could easily walk you through the pros and cons before you buy. REL offers so much more than just adding another low frequency octave. REL is arguably, the "best of the breed".
Hey - this will fix your problem.I have this on a very high-end system. No issue. OR you can contact Vermouth audio and ask them to make you custom "y" wire.
I can’t return the sub because I bought it from the original owner who also bought and didn’t use it. Also don’t have the box.
Call SVS and see if they have a seller/buyer warranty transfer policy. You need the serial number. Power Sound Audio has a seller/buyer warranty transfer policy that’s good for up to 5 years. And SVS has their own policies too and you may be able to return or trade up for one that suits your needs. Wouldn’t hurt to try.
If you can’t return it to SVS, I think they also sell the boxes for their subs for shipping, as this scenario happens all the time and then you can re-sell to anywhere.
There are speaker level to line level adapters. There seems to be some disagreement over whether you need a second set of speaker terminals to connect it to or if you can piggyback it to the same terminals that are driving your main speakers. I think this would compromise the sound of at least your subwoofer if not the mains speakers as well but don’t know just guessing.
"On another note, every sub I have owned has blended better with the main speakers using the high level inputs. I don’t even try with pre outs anymore."
My integrated has only one set of speaker taps. Is ok to connect the converters wires to the same speaker terminals that are driving your main speakers?
That’s how I connected mine. I use banna plugs for the sub and raw wire for the speakers. I actually think the slight impendence change the sub adds helps the overall sound.
Record outs are fixed output so the volume of the sub will stay the same indipendent of the volume of the music... not reallly what you want. Speaker to line level adapters are really inexpensive and worth a try before you sell your sub.
I’m not sure that is a problem. The sub itself should attenuate the signal by setting the crossover and the gain/ volume. This is off the top of my head thinking but I have had my coffee. So I can’t even use that as an excuse if I am.
BTW what integrated are you using?
Also, you should call SVS and see what they recommend.. This is what you should do before proceeding.
Crazy idea but have you tried the rec out to the subs input? I’m not sure if it will work but it carries the same signal as pre out BTW you may want to read the owner manual on using the rec out and if you have to do something to initiate the rec out
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