If he had to sell, he sold it to a company with integrity. Will Emotiva keep the manufacturing in the US? I hope so. Good for Bob.
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Business is business...if you think some sort of dealer loyalty or concern about reputation trumps cash, you're living in an imaginary world. If Emotiva can make all or part of Carver amps overseas, any (or most) issues people have with that will evaporate if they become less expensive, the quality improves, or the amps get more widely distributed (although unlikely as so few "brick and mortar" retailers exist).
I don't know why it matters whether Bob Carver notified dealers or distributors.
It is unclear to me why dealers and distributors have a problem with old stock. Did the sale of the business result in a price change? I didn't see any announcement other than the sale of the business. Could Bob Carver have changed prices even without selling the business? I bet he could have.
If he did, does that mean the distributors and dealers are left holding the bag? Maybe. But you know, that's the risk that businesses take.
Nothing unethical to see here.
Its unethical how they treated there dealers. Now few are stuck with a unit they paid for more then current retail cost. If you ask me Bob and his friends are a bunch of thief's. No respect to dealers or those who paid high prices for this amp only to find out now its worth brand new at 50% of the price paid.
06-25-13: Dragon_vibeI FEEL for you but it's life in the BIG city.
Just to show the huge margins in these products. Imagine the more expensive amps. Ouch!
Disclaimer: I have to state first that we are (were) a Carver dealer.
I agree. They initially said that nothing would change for their dealers. Now that they have the company, they can do anything they want. Bait and switch. I received an email from them confirming that the Black Beauty 305 will likely sell for $8,000 direct. I can only imagine how many dealer will not be very happy to say the least and they had a LOT of dealers.
We have a demo pair of these for sale here on AudioGon and had to drop the price considerable and may have to drop even more to unload them. It will be a huge hit but there is really no need in keeping them now.
Dragon-Vibe; I assume by Bob you meant Bob Carver. The other Bob that worked there was a great guy and a huge asset to the audio community.
Dragon_vibe, "Its unethical how they treated there dealers."
No one felt more appreciative about Bob Carver's most recent venture than I. An all-American tube amplifier company, led by the legend himself who seemed to be in it because of his heart. But isn't this at least the fourth time he's pulled the rug out from under his dealers? Why do we keep falling for this guy's act?
To be perfectly fair and unbiased, this is my opinion.
Assuming Bob wanted to protect his dealers and also assuming that's what Bob wanted to be clear with Emotiva when he agreed to sell his company to them, Bob would have no input whatsoever once Emotiva decided to stick with their factory direct business model.
Furthermore, I don't think Bob had any real financial power over his last business venture since, if I'm not mistaken, he started it with the help of an investor.
The only 'issue' I may have with the whole thing is the drastic drop in prices.
It's only meant that either Bob's profit margin was rather larger than the norm or something else is at play now.
For what its worth, I purchased my VTA 180s from a dealer for $5600. who ordered them with my choice of a black finish and were shipped directly from the Kentucky manufacturing location.
It was clear to me prior to this purchase that Bob Carver was not the overseer of manufacturing and distribution but simply the namesake and a member of the design team.
To Bob Carvers credit he maintains a repair facility for all the products that bare his name regardless of age.
Bob had an investor. Before the investor stepped in, Bob
had a day job and was building amps one at a time and
selling them on eBay. He was managing to sell maybe one amp
every other month or so. Bob was definitely the tech brain
behind the company, but I believe he didn't have very much
authority over the financial direction of the company. I
believe the investor saw an opportunity with Emotiva and
took it. That's what investors do. Ultimately, the guy
with the money makes the decisions.
I have a feeling you will see another reincarnation of Bob
Carver with yet another venture in the next ten years. I
believe that as long as he has enough cash to cobble
together an amp by hand, he will start making amps again, in
his garage if he has to. It is in his blood. ....and he
will have buyers.
06-26-13: Dragon_vibeYou're a customer. You bought an amp. Why is the company obligated to involve/update you in selling the company?
I bought a bag of Scott's grass seeds last week, now they're obligated updating and getting my approval in all company transactions.
I don't get the reasons for Emotiva lowering the price of these amps. I assumed that with all the hype and glowing reviews these things are selling well, and keeping the prices at the same level is more profitable...I can only assume Emotiva doesn't care about money, thinks these amps are overpriced in the first place and is taking an ethical stand (!), or thinks they'll sell more of 'em at lower prices. As far as pissing off dealers (or recent purchasers), there's nothing quite like starting a new ownership with a raft of ill will and bad publicity.
06-27-13: Wolf_garciaIs it possible your assumptions are wrong and one of the reason company was sold to Emotiva? Emotiva can build them cheaper and less expensive to attract more customers.
Most dealers, say 99.9%, don't stock, just take orders and drop ship from the manufacturer so no big deal.
Emotiva couldn't give a rats a$$ about dealers. They have a very successful online business. They've seen the handwriting on the wall. Dealers are an endangered species and no longer necessary to be successful in the audio business, Audiogon has proved that. A lot of us buy equipment here without ever seeing a human, it's all done from a keyboard and monitor.
Knghfi...my assumptions are never wrong, or so I assume. I'm absolutely certain Emotiva has no desire to make money and exists merely to serve mankind as a humble hifi friend, and to make Bob Carver's life easier with a pile of money...or at least his investors...unlike the rest of you cynical bastards.
Knghifi amps paid at full price. 2 months down the line. Its being sold nearly at 50% of the price. How would you feel if your Dude was purchased for 6000.000 but then sold direct for 3000.00 Im sure you will be pissed off when it comes to the time of selling it. How much can you ask for 3000.00 for a used pre???? or 1500.00 for a used pre?? it hurts everyone. I don't have time for bob. So this is my last post.
06-28-13: Dragon_vibeThat's NOT my problem.
2 months down the line. Its being sold nearly at 50% of the price.you need a new calculator, ~30%?
How would you feel if your Dude was purchased for 6000.000 but then sold direct for 3000.00 Im sure you will be pissed off when it comes to the time of selling it. How much can you ask for 3000.00 for a used pre???? or 1500.00 for a used pre??I don't own a Dude but a VAC Sig MKIIa that was bought new. I could carless if Kevin sells the company but want to wish him the best. It will not stop me from enjoying the pre. When it's time to sell, I just have to accept s&*t happens in life, sometimes you end up with a short straw and move on.
I bought a new laptop 1.5 yrs ago and now selling 50%. What to do? Stop living?
it hurts everyone. I don't have time for bob. So this is my last post.Only hurts customers bought before buy out which is unfortunate. Good luck!
I hadn't considered that. So customers who bought a Carver product before this takeover now see take a big hit on the market value.
Emotiva is a hard one to figure out. They take over Sherbourn and continue the dealer model, but then switch to internet direct, presumably because it's not doing well. They take over TacT, and now it's revealed that TacT is not workable on their to-be-released XMC-1. And now they take over Bob Carver's company.
It appears that they are not very shrewd. They've released, then dropped many amp and speaker models instead of improving the lines as most companies try to do. They still can't make a decent processor but keep trying and failing.
Their track record says this Bob Carver takeover doesn't have a very good chance of success.
Bottom line is that nothing said will change anything. I think it will be very sucessful especially now that the prices are lower. New customers will hop on board now. Audiogon members make up only a sliver of Emotiva's customer base and many audio consumers out there really don't know the details of this business deal. A few months down the road and this won't even be a topic anymore.
Will Carver do as well as Sherbourn has? Because they've done pretty lousy since the Emotiva takeover. It's easy to speculate I know, but their track record needs to be considered.
Emotiva recently dropped a bomb. The XMC-1 will not have TacT at all and another room correction company will try to make it work. How long will that take and how obsolete will the XMC be by the time its released?
As I indicated in another thread, I have lived in Carver country most of my life in Seattle. The name "Carver" has a very catchy iconic sound to it like Bose which is why people bow down to Carver. He started Phase Linear in 1968 then Carver in 1979. The build and construction quality of Carver components back in the 80's and 90's was absolute junk which is why his plant in Lynnwood north of Seattle had a full time staff of 200 people that dropped down to 20 people by the early 90's and his stock dropped to .30 cents a share. Us Northwesterner's wouldn't waste our spit on Carver. Fool's gold. Emotiva buying Carver is perfect. Chinese junk buy's American crap.
Audiozen, before you go trashing Carver, what is your experience with his new line of tube amplifiers? I've had his 200 watt amplifier for the past 3 years and never had one single issue with the amp. It is the most reliable and stable tube amp I have ever owned. It is the quietest tube amp I have ever owned and as quiet as the quietest SS amp I've ever owned. It is capable of driving 1 ohm load (eg, Apogee Scintilla). The sound is one of the best I've heard from any amp I've come across. Dynamic, rich, extended, holographic, etc. It can drive complex loads with no problem. It's sound can be improved even more by some very simple inexpensive modifications. I've had past experience with amps from Atmasphere, Audio Research, Mark Levinson, Jadis, Krell, Pass, etc. You are misleading Agoners about Carver's new designs by posting your past dissatisfaction with Carver, whatever that may have been. I'm not defending Carver's past products because I have little experience with them, but his new products are winners in my book. The lower prices resulting from Emotiva ownership will allow more people to enjoy some of the best tube sound around.
So one has to wait forty years to get a decent product from Bob Carver? I bought a Carver system in 1989 from Magnolia Hi-Fi in Seattle. Within six months the detent ring in the volume knob jammed and locked up in the Preamp and the Carver CD player quit playing and skipped constantly. By the end of the first year of ownership I had the components serviced three times due to breakdown. I sold the entire system and never looked back. The best product Carver made was the Silver Seven amp. I could care less about Bob's current company. And Emotiva? Looks like component rack gear you would find in a Korean disco. Parasound is a much better option than Emotiva.
Audiozen by your own admission you purchased some Carver mid-fi at a low point.
I purchased two Phase Linear 400s in the late 60s for use in a PA rack. They were knocked around for almost nine years and were sold in working order. I didn't know much about the Man other than some unusual products, the Cube Sub, and some of his branding issues.
I was incredibly skeptical of purchasing his 200 watt tube amp. A bit more research I found out his participation in the company and manufacture was limited. Once home and run in these amps are stunningly well made.
Stemming from a grudge formed by someone who would consider Carver Mid-Fi from a Best Buys Magnolia HiFi, your lack of audio knowledge then seems to be still working against you today. Carver Tube LLC is not the same stuff
Your estimation of any aspect of the Kentucky built Carver Tube Amplifiers is grossly misleading and without any practical contemporary experience.
I have very guarded feelings regarding emo manufacturing practices. I am hoping when the time ever comes to sell, my Carver LLC amps will have an increased value over their new owners output who must be purchasing their first soldering stations to accommodate a newfound foray into US manufacturing.
Frankly, It wouldn't surprise me in the least if one out of fifty of their tube amps was manufactured in the US.
Lack of audio knowledge? Baloney. Bob Carver made his career on glorified hype with his magnetic field amp which was nothing more than a large modified block transformer. Sonic Holography? More hype. Nothing more than a phase delay circuit to create a dimensional ambiance effect. Hell, the BBE processor's do the same thing only much better. I used a BBE processor in my system in the 90's and the sonic results was superior to Carver. Carver's marketing campaign in the 80's was overkill. His ads and ad copy were so cleverly written that it came across as the most advanced products on the market. The ongoing problems with the construction quality of his components was not short term but was on going for over ten years. Magnolia repair department in the 90's informed me that Carver separates were coming in every month for repair and they had a helluva time keeping up with the volume. I will admit that Bob's Amazing Loudspeaker in 1986 was a damn good speaker. I heard a pair in a small auditorium in the 80's hooked up to a pair of 500 watt mono-blocks. Blew me away. As low priced as Emotiva product's are, their construction quality is better that the Carver junk from the 80's and 90's. Carver went out of business because Audiophiles got wise and found better results from that time period with products from Threshold, Adcom and Parasound. So now that Bob Carver is approaching 70 years of age he finally wised up and is making good product's? No thanks. I'd rather wait for Haley's Comet.
Unfortunately, you have no experience with his new amps, so no credibility calling his new gear junk. As far his old stuff goes, that's your experience. There are forums dedicated to old Carver gear, so there are a lot of satisfied customers out there. But I get it. You don't like Carver gear. No point in beating a dead horse over and over.
Who cares about his new amps. Bob Carver made his living as a flim flam man during the past forty years. I can't believe that he is referred to as a legend. Yeah, right..a legend in his own mind. And what has Bob provided to the Audio industry in all those years to be deemed a "Legend"?,
nothing. During the 70's Engineers such as Demian Martin, Nelson Pass, John Curl and John Ulrick were light years ahead of Bobby C. and were designing and producing audio components that were far superior to anything Bobby C. was putting out at that time.
Obviously enough people care about Bobs new amp that several threads were initiated here and multiple threads on other forums. And his new amp got product of the year award by TAS. You really need to pipe down. Your are so tea party, Sara Palinisk biased, you have lost your credibility. You sound like insecure teenage girl who got dissed by the high school quarter back.
Dracule, I understand. The guy is full of it. I think a pill exploded in his head. Take a look at my system page, I own several pairs of Carver Silver 9t monoblocks. They are now 20 years old and still going strong and as bulletproof as ever. They are driving the bass columns in my Infinity IRS Beta speakers. They also drive my amp-killing Infinity Kappa 9 speakers. Both speakers present a serious load for ANY amp, the Carvers hold their own. Hardly the junk Audiozen claims Carver to be. My Carver amps have never been serviced and have never given me a problem....and I drive the hell out of them.
Bob might have ticked off some dealers with this latest move, but his products speak for themselves. The marriage to Emotiva is a continuation of Carver's history of a good product for a fair price. Again, if you look at my system, the Carver amps take their place among some very respected names in hifi. I've tried a lot of big names, and Carver is not junk.