JV and The Absolute Sound liked it enough that BB got product of the year and editor choice awards. |
Bob Farinelli has nothing to do with the actual circuitry. |
I have a pair of the Cherry 180s, bought when Bob used to sell them on eBay. Mine was built with some modifications...V-Cap output coupling caps, Furutech RCAs, Vampire copper binding posts, and non-captive cords. It also has the vintage pie wound transformers, different than what is currently used. So mine should sound different the current production Cherry 180s. In my system, this is a great amplifier.
For comparison, I have the Atma-Sphere M60s with V-Cap copper Teflon coupling caps, Caddock resistor package upgrade, and power supply boost. The only thing M60s does better than the Cherry 180s is in the treble, it is smoother and more extended. I guess the OTL design is responsible for this. However, Cherry 180 has better soundstaging, imaging, macrodynamics, and bass extension. In fact, the dynamics and bass extension can be startling. Microdyanmics are similar for both amps. I know the M60 only puts out only 60 watts, but I'm not over driving them in my system, and play my speakers to similar volume levels when comparing the two amps. At high volumes, the Cherrys just runs circles around the M60s as it should given the difference in power rating. The Cherrys are the quietest tube amp I have ever heard, equaling the best SS amps in this regard. No tube hiss even with your ear right up against the speaker. No transformer hum, unless you put your ear right on the transformer can. Jet black background when the music is playing.
The sweet spot is with the Cherry 180s, not the Black Beauties. They won't clip until about 240 watts, which isn't that far off from 300 watts. And the Cherrys are a lot less in price. The fact that you can use KT88s with the Black Beauties suggests the circuitry between the two amps isn't that different. I like the KT88 because there are so many brands out there to try. With KT120s, you're stuck with one brand.
The Cherrys are very versatile in that you can tweak the bias and feedback to make it gel with your system the way you want it. I prefer bias setting around 100 to 110 mA and feedback at vintage setting(~20 dB feedback). And, it can drive the Apogee Scintilla, as it was designed to. How many tube amps do you know under $10K, or over, that can drive 1 ohm impedance of the Scintilla? This amp can cover all genre of music.
This amp has potential to become one of the greats in audio, an amp to hold onto for the rest of your life. The thing that holds it back, IMHO, is the parts quality of the amp. Some of the parts in the stock amp are...well surprisingly pedestrian and should not be in an amp in this price range. Just couple of simple tweaks (eg, changing output coupling caps, ditching the stock volume pot by going direct or replacing it with stepped resistor attenuator, etc) will do wonders.
I agree with Teajay in that Bob's amp sound lies somewhere between ARC and CJ and can be tweaked to approach either side of the spectrum. |
Namikis, yes I think the main difference between the Cherrys and Blacks are transformers power rating and perhaps the power supply caps. I think for relatively reasonable expense by replacing the stock coupling caps and volume pot, you will hear a significant increase in sound quality. You don't need expensive V-Caps, which can be too detailed. Just try your favorite caps from Mundorf, Jupiter, Clarity etc. You will need four 0.22 microF caps rated at 600V. |
Chachas, I find your remarks about Bob ill-informed and nasty, to the point of personal attack. If you were an audio designer of some productivity, may be you can give a credible opinion about Bob's designs. As far as I can tell, you have no experience in designing, marketing, and manufacturing any product in audio. Despite the gimmicky names for some of his designs (and who hasn't used gimmick in high end), Bob made products that most could afford and competed with products that were far more costly.
Some of his designs are legendary (eg, Carver Silver Seven tube amp and Phase Linear, the first high power amp for consumer audio). Some are not so legendary. One of his designs I didn't care for (ie, Amazing Ribbon speaker back in the day), but have to admit it was in poor show room with unfamiliar electronics. However, he is one of the very few legends in audio who will actually talk to you on the phone about audio in general and help you trouble shoot your system, even if the problem has nothing to do with his product. As far as I can tell, there is no high end audiofest dedicated to one designer other than Bob (Carverfest). From what I understand, he is there every year to meet his fans and actually has sessions where you can build one of his amps from scratch with his help. That seems pretty darn rare in high end. The only other designer who comes close is Nelson Pass in this regard.
Most high end designers sit in their ivory towers, rarely to be seen, let alone be able to contact on the phone, unless they have a new product to sell. I have never met Bob in person, but have talked to him over the phone and found him to be genuine and almost like a kid in a candy store when it comes to audio. He'll talk audio to anyone with a body temperature. |
Mrtennis, while I applaud your enthusiasm for MV125, you do realize that is your opinion of what a tube amp should sound like. Others will have entirely different view. I know the classic CJ sound, very lush and seductive but colored compared to most contemporary tube amps. I enjoy that type of sound as well, but not all the time. |
I hear you Mrtennis. Sometimes the classic lush tube sound is welcomed compared to some of the newer more "solid state" sounding tube amps. You can make the Carver tube amp sound more lush by tweaking the bias and feedback, but it is still not like the classic CJ stuff. I also like the lush sound of McIntosh amps from the 50's and 60's. They beautify the midrange, especially female vocals, more than real life. But the sound is so compelling you can't escape it. |
Dragon, personally I think the sweet spot is with the Cherry 180, if you don't need the extra power. I'v heard both amps, but not in direct comparison. I was told the Black Beauty might be a little more sweet sounding, but that may be due to the KT120s. According to the man himself, there shouldn't be a noticeable difference in sound quality between the two, except for the extra headroom the BB provides. |
Kenster, I'm not a blood sucker (DraculA)...I think you have me confused with my ex.
If you open up the one mono block chassis, you should see two 0.22 uF caps, one for each bank of push pull output tubes. Those are the coupling caps you need to replace. Bear in mind, each mono block also has one 2.2 uF feedback cap. Leave that alone, because only a few percent of the signal actually go through that cap. I don't know what the caps look like because my amps are not the current production version. They may have switched to a different brand, but I can tell you they will be small, not big like most audiophile caps. If you shoot me a photo of the inside of your amp, I can locate them for you.
The volume control is easy to replace, if you know how to solder. It goes right before the input (grid) resistor to the 12AX7 tube. |
Oh yea, I've been meaning to replace the input resistor as well. As far as resistors go, this resistor probably has the most influence in the sound. It needs to be 3.3 kOhm, 0.5 watt resistor with 300 V rating. May be a Shinkoh metal film, nude Z-foil, Riken carbon film, etc... depending on your taste. |
Gold Point Attenuator/Vcap -- Increased clarity, dynamics, low and high freq extension. Better imaging and staging. Fuller, more natural midrange. I think the GP gives you more bang for the buck. |
Sorry I do not do mods...I would contact a local repair guy or ask your dealer or Bob's company if they are willing to do the mod. Good luck. |
Dragon, wouldn't if be more prudent if you get the amp and live with it for couple of months and get used to the sound. If you still feel, you need to improve the sound, you can have someone do the mods. This way, you will be able to hear the improvement yourself, which I think is more satisfying. |
Good news! Bob has informed me replacing the stock volume pot with the Gold Point attenuator by a qualified professional will not void the warranty on the amp. |
By Bob, I mean Bob Carver. |
Bob doesn't do mods. Where do you live? |
I've seen that review. Amplifiers will sound different in different systems. I have the Cherry 180 using KT88s tubes, not KT120s, and never found the amp lacking in high frequency extension. |
Zenkail, Bob Carver once told me his favorite preamp of all time is the Citation designed by Stu Hegeman. Once you get your tube equipment optimized, no SS can get that "addictive" sound you're referring to. :-) |
