Well, the BC gear is from a great, reputable company. It sounds worth every penny and will easily resell. It gets my vote.
Blue Circle 21.1 vs Eastern Electric Minimax
Seems there are plenty of fans in each of these camps, just wanted to hear the pros and cons. Am looking for an inexpensive but high-performing tube pre that is close to neutral but still provides a bit of tube magic, and these two have made it to my short list.
BTW, the BC I am looking at is with remote, not Shallco... is there convincing argument that Shallco is noticeably better? And I know Minimax is not remote, but it is cheaper.
BTW, the BC I am looking at is with remote, not Shallco... is there convincing argument that Shallco is noticeably better? And I know Minimax is not remote, but it is cheaper.
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Gunbei did an excellent review of these two pre's. I don't know if his was a 21 or 21.1? He's being shy about posting it here. Perhaps your question will prompt the green man to quit horsin' around with Pokey and get on the stick! Cumon' Dean, after all that effort in listening and writing you should really share your thoughts here. In a nutshell, I can tell you that he liked the.....nah, I won't ruin it for him...you'll just have to hear it from the bendy green guy himself. He even throws in a BAT VK30i to make things interesting too. It's all about you Dean.... Marco |
Deanmiester emailed me to tell KCK he wants $25 forwarded to his email: [email protected] if you want to view his premium review of BC and EE. I've paid the amount, and I'd tell'yah its well worth it. He speaks straight from the horse's mouth unlike those 6moons reviews that sensationalize everything from self-adhesive stamps to non-liquid nail polish remover. (yes, i did just wake up) You also get a monthly newsletter with your subscription filled with pictures that the Enquirer will pay handsomely for. |
$25?! That SOB gouged me for $50! And I didn't get no tabloid pics neither. I gotta' bone to pick with you Dean! Yeah, OK, it was worth it. I laughed. I cried. I am a better man for having read it. My sex life has improved, and my stool is a bit more firm and consistently floats to the top of the bowl. Thanks Dean! Marco |
Hey you goofballs, I finally found this thread!! Oh, and thanks for the all the money, I think I got about $100 so far. Here's the review I sent to Mad Marco, Dirty Dan and Evil Ed. First, I should say that I have definite tastes in the way I like music presented, so please keep that in mind when reading this long-winded babble. Hopefully, it isn't so filled with such crazy prejudices that anyone not sharing my view of what is desirable in audio playback can extract what's important to them and discard the rest. Wait, didn't Bruce Lee say something like that? Oh well, here goes... |
here are "some" of my impressions. If you want to skip around, find the subheadings that interest you. This could have been way longer so if you have any questions feel free to ask away. Well, after a great deal of listening to the five preamps I've been comparing since the summer, I've decided to stay with my long time preamp the Blue Circle BC21. During that time I've heard for myself what other people have written is important to them [transparency, inner detail, etc..] in stereo playback, but even more so I found what's important to me. The following is the process through which I have gone. The five preamps being considered were: Antique Sound Labs Passive T1 DT Luminous Audio AXIOM passive BAT VK3i Eastern Electric MiniMax Blue Circle BC21 My reference system at the beginning of testing was: Theta Pearl transport Kora Hermes DAC [w/ Mullard tubes] Blue Circle BC21 [w/ Ken-Rad black glass VT-231] BAT VK200 solid state amp My cabling configuration at the beginning of testing was: from transport to DAC Acoustic Zen MC2 from DAC to preamp Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II from preamp to amp Acoustic Zen Matrix Reference II THE PASSIVE PRES Early in the summer I received both the ASL and AXIOM passive pres to compare with my tubed BC21 and it was immediately apparent what the Blue Circle added and took away from the sonic presentation. The BC21 heavily favors the midrange and upper bass frequencies, while the ASL and AXIOM offer a more balanced sound. Both passives pass along tighter more detailed bass than the BC21, but I feel the AXIOM is definitely better than the ASL everywhere else in the spectrum. The ASL T1 DT surprisingly sounds a bit clouded and bloated compared ot the AXIOM. I didn't expected such a difference between passive preamps. However, what immediately jumped out and crossed them off the winners list was their flat and emotionless presentation of the music. I've heard this is a characteristic of many passive pres and it was interestin gto hear it for myself. The Blue Circle sounded fuller and created a more holographic and romantic soundfield that just pulled me in. Maybe I didn't care for these two passive preamps because they're cheaper ones. It may not be a fair test, but I was definitely experiencing what other tube lovers have mentioned. THE BAT A few months ago I received the BAT VK3i, and upon initial hook up I thought "what is all the fuss about?" I'd heard so much of the synergy between BAT products and made sure to purchase a balanced run of Acoustic Zen Matrix Reference II interconnect to replace the RCA version I use between the preamp to amp so that the BAT components would be running fully balanced. At first listen the sound was closed in and just plain dead, even after a thirty minute warm up. I remained patient and left the VK3i on overnight and all the next day while I was at work and sat down for another listen twenty four hours later. The difference was incredible. The balance of the BAT is only slightly warmer than either passive pre, but with a huge expansion of the soundstage in all directions. The center picture also appeared to me bigger than with any other preamp, and although extension at the top end wasn't absolute, it was as good as the AXIOM passive pre. Bass tonality was excellent too. I didn't detect any humps or exagerations in these frequencies as exist with the Blue Circle. I should remark that since I use ProAc Response 1SC monitors with a powered subwoofer my judgement of the lower octaves of these preamps can't be construed as complete, however I could discern the effects of each preamp on overall bass reproduction. The initial listening with the VK3i was done with the tube and cable configuration outlined above, but I noticed a slight glare in the upper midrange and a shift towards the lean side after installing the BAT. It was then that I decided to remove the AZ Silver Ref II and insert the Matrix Ref II instead. I'd say that experiment lasted about thirty seconds. Removing the Silver Ref II from a slightly lean sounding system in exchange for the fuller, copper constructed Matrix Ref II matched with the already warm, full sounding Mullard tubes in the Kora resulted in a sound so muffled and smeared, I thought the musicians were playing with pillows over the microphones. I decided to keep the Matrix Ref II in the mix, but swapped the Mullards out for the more revealing Siemens CCa 6922 tubes. What happened was that the sound regained almost the same balance and resolution as the Mullards matched with the AZ Silver Ref II, but with a more organic sense. Throughout the rest of the testing and to this day this is the configuration I have. Although the BAT doesn't have the ultimate in top end extension, I believe this preamp has much of what most people could want in a preamp. It passes along an incredibly smooth, balanced sound and a holographic soundstage. The one thing I felt it lacked was emotion, and for me that was the deal breaker. Diana Krall and Jacintha sounded like they were just singing lyrics with none of it coming from the heart. Flamenco guitar strings had body but didn't have snap and therefore lacked passion. The VK3i doesn't have the coldness of solid state, but neither does it sound classically tubey. If someone was searching for a preamp that had many of the attributes of solid state line stages without the SS hash and a wee bit warmth I'd recommend the BAT. THE MINIMAX In the last month I'd been reading much positive feedback surrounding the Eastern Electric MiniMax preamp. Reviews stated that it had attributes of modern tube and solid state preamps such as great resolution and transparency, but with a music lover's touch. I thought this might something for me and decided to take the plunge. Bill O'Connell with Morningstar Audio who imports designer/builder Alex Yeung's equipment was very helpful and great to deal with. I had initally contacted him to purchase a demo MiniMax and after much communication I decided to buy a set of three NOS tubes he'd put together for me along with the stock ones. Right before he shipped me the unit, he asked if it was alright if he sent me a brand new MiniMax. I had to laugh, because only in high end audio would someone ask permission to substitute a brand spanking piece of equipment in place of a used one, and ata discounted price too! I burned the MiniMax in for the suggested 100 hours, but also had periodic listening sessions during the break in process. Out of the box with stock tubes it didn't sound very good, but with time the sound smoothed out and opened up. After 120-140 hours I gave it a good listen and compared it to the BC21. The MiniMax had an audible edge in transparency and frequency extension over the Blue Circle but, also had a MUCH more recessed midrange and some evidence of treble grain. Frankly, I was quite shocked the MiniMax's midrange was so recessed. A reviewer noted how round and full it sounded compared to his reference Bel Canto preamp, but then again I've never heard a Bel Canto preamp. I decided that my perception could be based on my extensive use of the BC21, but the MiniMax's midrange was even smaller than that of either passive pre. Bill said I could drop in the NOS tubes and give a good listen after only a few hours burn in, but I decided to give it five days! Last Friday night began my most prolonged listening session which was only interrupted by sleep and watching the Roy Jones fight and Pride Grand Prix. I concluded the test late Sunday night. I listened Friday night and Saturday morning to the MiniMax and could immediately hear the difference the NOS tubes made. The sound was much smoother than the stock tubes and the midrange regained some of its prominance, but there was still something missing for me. The MiniMax gave more romantic renditions of Diana Krall and Robby Longley than the BAT but seemed sucked out in the upper bass which greatly differentiates it from the tonality of the BC21. Guitar strings sounded thin and voices weren't as full as I think they should be. Something was still missing. There were many spacial cues such as chairs shuffling, singers breathing present in the MiniMax's playback that aren't there when listening to the BC21. Cymbals have nice shimmer and decay with the MiniMax, and the same goes for most percussion, but vocals and acoustic instruments, especially piano lack what I think is the proper weight. Also, the soundstage seems smaller than the BC21 and VK3i and less focused as well. I would say the NOS tubes are a must, they add a couple levels of refinement and warmth that earn its "music listener" moniker. Overall the MiniMax has a very mellow yet revealing nature probably suited for easier listening type music and levels, a smaller soundscape as well, nothing big and bold. I think it's a good preamp, just not my cup of Kona. REVENGE OF THE BC It was time to bring back the BC21 with my new tube and cable configuration for comparison. Immediately, I knew something was right. The Blue Circle makes Liz Story's piano, any acoustic guitar and vocalist sound as if they're playing in a small, intimate club with me sitting at a table front row. Very up front, but not bright. I love that! Guitars have a full-bodied twang and Diana Krall's voice sounds husky and sexy. With exception of the BAT the other three preamps made vocals and acoustic instruments sound as if they were being miked from a distant stage. Through this process I realized that what I love about listening to music is...the music. By itself, inner detail or impressive sonic cues which arise from the often sought after audiophile transparency draws me into a musical performance. It's true that of the five preamps the BAT and MiniMax because of their superior detail can provide a clearer view into the sonic picture and even possibly help reveal more of the recording. But through the course of this comparison I've found that an underlying passion or emotion whether latent or manufactured by me is what I seek when I sit down for a listen. More so than a violinist turning the page of their sheet music, an audience member fidgeting in their seat or as someone mentioned in the forums Diana Krall inhaling her own snot. Rather than studying the branches and leaves or the claw marks a bear left on a tree's trunk, I prefer to take in the entire forrest from a mountain top vantage point. The choice between these preamps is a completely personal one, and I realize my approach to music appreciation is most likely among the minority of audiophiles. For me, the VK3i is Faith Hill, the All-American beauty singing in all her glory. The MiniMax is more reserved but with a dash of attitude and spunk, so we'll label her Ashley Judd. The BC21 is Maria Grazia Cucinotta from the movie Il Postino. A six foot tall, smoldering, simple peasant girl and Mediterannean beauty standing across the foosball table with a look of defiance and overt sexuality daring me to take the ball from her mouth. Some audiophiles might hesitate to take her home to meet mom, but give me the BC21 every damn time! SYSTEM MATCHING AND INTEGRATION The BC21 definitely adds a distinct sonic character to the overall mix, and that can affect other components. For example, I feel ProAc monitors because of their rear ports can depending on placement and music exhibit a hollow, hooty upper bass. When matched to the BC21 which accentuates some of the same frequencies, this becomes even more obvious with bongo drums and some wooden instruments. Neither the VK3i nor MiniMax do this. My perception is that the BAT and AXIOM offer the most "correct" tonal balance and therefore may be easier to match with a wider range of audio gear. Of the five preamps they make the least amount of sonic mistakes and that may be why I perceive them to be slightly boring. Instruments and human voices are consist of a complex combination of tones. With the AXIOM, MiniMax and BAT I was more aware of the higher frequencies that define them. The chuffing of the brush on a tophat. The air being pushed through the vocal cords of a singer. The edge of a guitar pick running across a steel string. The texture of the kick drum's skin. With the Blue Circle these qualities are slightly subdued, and I become more aware of twang of the guitar string and how it reverberates within its wooden body. The reverberation of the drum after being struck. How lyrics sound full-bodied resonating from a singer's chest. The weight of a piano key fading out. I think what I'm trying to say is that with the Blue Circle I experience the weight of whatever note is being played, not the treble detail that helps describe it. If you're looking for a preamp that alters the in coming signal the least, the Luminous Audio AXIOM accomplishes that best. The BAT VK3i adds slight warmth and greatly increases the scale of the performance. The Eastern Electric MiniMax gives a detailed yet quiet rendition. And the Blue Circle BC21 serves up a bold and saucy plate of fettuccini alfredo fresh from Maria's kitchen. THE AFTERMATH Since settling on the Blue Circle, I've decided to tidy everything up and make sure power conditioning and isolation have been adressed. I will be purchasing an MR1200 Music Ring with the companion BC62 power cord, and a set of Blue Circle Isolation cones. Somewhere down the line I plan to send the BC21 to Blue Circle to have an extensive array of upgrades done which Gilbert Yeung of Blue Circle and Kevin Allen of Harmonia Audio outlined for me. I understand the upgrades will bring overall refinements, and improve the transparency while retaining if not enhancing the inherent character of the BC21. So hopefully I'll end up with Maria in a full tilt, plunging neckline, high slit evening gown. Va va vooom!! I look forward to driving home, warming up Maria and taking her in like a peaceful Mediterranean sunset. That's it! Dean |
Kck, If you made it through that review, I should also add that I heard the BC21.1 playing through a BC28 to Martin Logan Aerius speakers in the Blue Circle room at the last Vegas CES. The sound was much less colored than what I listen to, but still with that "Blue Circle" character. The BC21.1 has some upgraded internals, but the main changes are the two 6922 tubes instead of the 6SN7 which are used in my BC21. Kevin Allen agrees that the lower midrange, upper bass hump I'm experiencing is due to the character of these tubes, so the BC21.1 shouldn't exhibit this nature. I didn't detect it when I heard the BC21.1. Also, if you opt for the Shallco attenuator and not the remote volume control even more refinement should be realized. I understand Gilbert Yeung can even install different Shallcos with varying amounts of attenuation depending on how many steps or changes in gain you want. Good luck! |
Dean, many thanks for coming through; the check is in the mail! Whew, made it through the review, and found it interesting that you also included the BAT, which was on my list last week but has been slowly sliding off due to its reputed high level of warmth (physical, not audible - I understand it needs space, space, and I am probably needing a cooler running pre in my setup). I know, not an audiophile type of thing, but if any of you have a perfect environment, let me know... I have a used BC 21.1 coming in next week. Unfortunately it has the remote, not Shallco. The remote is a selling point for me, being a lazy-@$$. I did like your description of the BAT sound. My cup of chai, with perhaps a bit extra sugar. Well, I will listen to the BC and let you guys know what I think. I must add that I am funds-limited so cost is an issue, and that precludes buying 3 or 4 units to audition, selling all but one at a loss. Yes, I try to follow the buy low, sell low design, but it does not always work out. I might consider the BAT if the BC doesn't make my earth move. Now I am going to stick my neck out and ask you a question. How much did you consider the syndrome of "my baby is the prettiest" when doing this comparo? If you did, did you take compensating steps? Yeah, review = subjective and all, I know. Anyway, that is really a rhetorical question; there is no answer, correct or otherwise. Thanks again. Audiogon good. Stereo Review bad. |
Gunbei, Did you know the Mini Max inverts phase in some components? I spent the past two days with several folks critically listening to several pieces of audio equipment with the Mini Max. Each time we swapped out components we checked and corrected the phase. This may explain why the Mini Max did not sound good in your system. Everyone, who listened to the Mini Max, agreed it was one of the best pre-amps we have heard especially with upgraded tubes. Yes, it doesn't have a remote, but my cdp remote does work well. |