Hello. My experience with the BDR has been that choice of placement makes a big difference. Where you put them, and whether you point them up or down makes a noticeable difference. Also, they are NOT sharp pointed, so they wont scratch your shelf or your equipment.
David99, I don`t use the Black Diamond Racing any more , I`ve replace them with Valid Points, they worked a whole lot better. the BDR did work , but the VP`S WORKED MUCH BETTER , the sound stage was a huge difference than the BDR produce, the bass was better, the midrange was more "there", the treble was much clearer than before. that`s what I heard from just changing the BDR cones to the VALID points on my transport!!!! Sooooooo, I change them on all of my stuff, you have not heard you Rogue 99 yet till you try these, I`am not kidding, Hell if Carl does not have them on his CD-50 he hasn`t heard his CD-50 yet!!!! I can`t wait to hear what he going to say, but you know Carl , it will good!!!!I have a place to get these at a great deal and you get 30 days to try them or you money back if you don`t hear any thing, but YOU will . Greg
Carl, When placing the cones under your unit, make sure one is under the transformer & balance the unit from there. The points down approach work best in my experience. Good Luck
I use a number of Black Diamond products. They work and I am satisfied with my purchases. However, they are not all cure and I ended up removing them from under my phono stage and preamplifier. I kinda' side with your dealer. It does make a difference where and how they are placed, but I would not describe the changes as more than subtle. By the way, for this type of product your dealer should take them back (at no charge) if you're not satisfied.
I have tried BDR cones reasonably extensively. For me, cones are a final touch. If there is significant resonance getting through your rack to the cones, then what happens is you get to hear the resonant frequency of the cones - which can trick you into believing you are hearing more detail, but the sound is very irritating in the longer term. This seems to go for all cones I have tried. But if your rack and shelves are good then the BDR cones work very well. When your rack and shelves are good, placement of the cones makes little difference. When a lot of resonance is getting through however, then placement of the cones can make a very marked difference - possibly due to different parts of the bottom plate resonating at different frequencies. But the difference due to moving the cones around is not so much an improvement/diminution in sound quality - just a change in the resonance being heard. The other observation about cones is that, in my room (which I must admit does not have a totally rigid floor) I still find it best to have some compliance somewhere in the equipment support. If you use BDR cones, then you are bypassing the rubber feet and it may be best to also try some form of compliance either in the shelf material (which MDF is an example of - as opposed to thick glass or perspex) or with an air cushion product like a seismic sink.
I use the BD cones under my CD player and I found a significant improvement by using them with ART Q dampers as a foot to the cones. The Q dampers have a center dent that the point of the BD cones fits into perfectly.
Im planning on using them under my Rogue 99 Are the good for tube preamps? also where can I find these ART q Dampers?
David, most of what is posted has covered my comments as well. I have a bunch of Black Diamond feet but no longer use them. I had two Black Diamond platforms, and sold them. The comments about Walker cones, I agree with, under some equipment, but not all equipment. You are going to have to experiment to find what works. I suggest also trying the Mod Squad Soft Shoes, they are under a lot of my equipment, and work wonders in many enviornments. A lot of what works in feet is directly related to the power cords, interconnect cables, room acoustics and where the particular piece of equipment is located in the room.
In my living room a.k.a. my "Home Theater" I have a Sony DVD S7700 on a tall and sturdy steel and glass (1") audio rack with the other components below on different shelves. Do you think that these devices would have any effect on the audio or video quality? If so can are the Valid Points the best choice and how much do they cost?
BM, They will have an effect on the sound of the Sony DVD unit, you will notice better bass and a much better sound stage with the Valid Points than the BDR. Albert is right about not using them under every thing, I use them on my transport, pre-amp, amp, but not my dac,it didn`t seem to make much difference there,and I`ll try them with my turntable when I get one to see if that works. My pre-amp and amp are tubes ,so it made a BIG difference there, you can call Tom at 440-526-1724, he`ll give the run down on them, you have 30 days to listen to them, if you don`t like them you can return them.They do WORK WELL, you can read about them in absolute sound, they like them ,and so did M.F. at Stereophile, he like them very much!!!Greg
Thanks Greg, I will check into that later this week after I set up the Denon. I have questions regarding speakers and interconnects for the Denon AVR 5700 in the System Matching section. If you can spare a minute I would appreciate a second opinon.
Most reviews I have seen have been very good concerning the BDR especially Stereophile.It sounds like the general opinion here is BDR is inferior to many other products.If so,what was the big hype about when the were new?Did I make ANOTHER mistake by ordering these? I e-mailed JEFF @ SOUND VALUES and he said no return on discounted items.
To David99,I didnt say they won`t work, just they don`t work as well as the Valid Points,you will hear the difference with the BDR OVER YOUR STOCK FEET, but the Valid Points are much better, also you could try the BDR under your turntable . Some people like these very much,so if you don`t like them you could always sell them. do talk to Tom he`s a great guy. hey if you want you can e-mail me at home without having to come here. email@example.com Greg
I don't think you made a mistake David99. There is nothing that is perfect in the vibration control arena. And no single product does it all. Location, under-floor support, rack material/structural integrity/damping, shelf material/thickness, etc. The cacophony of all these things that vibrate affects the sound you get, not just the cone under your equipment. Judiciously used the BDR cones can be very beneficial. IMHO, the common mistake is made when you find something beneficial like BDR cones under your transport, and then assume if you put them under everything, get BDR shelves for everything etc, that things will just continue to improve in proportion to how much BDR is in the system. When this results in a system that resonates to the sound of BDR, the mistake is compounded by removing every vestige of BDR altogether, and leaping on the next band-wagon. So hang on to the BDR cones. Use them judiciously and they can play a very valuable part in a resonance control strategy. Too much of the BDR can play havoc with tonality, but from my experience, too much of the Walker Valid Points causes problems too - mainly in the pace and rhythm department.
David99, I agree with most of what Redkiwi said about the BDR`s,I dont about the Valid Points, I didn`t feel they slowed the pace or rhythm down at all , I felt that it increased a little each time I installed them under the transport, then the pre-amp, then finally the amp, the last place I tried them was the dac,it didn`t seem to do anything better, but it didn`t make it worse,or lose any pace or rhythm. I do agree that not all of these things work on all equipment,but the Valid Point do work wonders on the ROGUE AUDIO gear. There chassie doesn`t seem as strong as some of the others, the ROGUE 66 is light as a feather,so the HEAVY MASS LOADING of the VALID POINTS ON this gear seem to work well, being a drummer, I`am well aware of ANY PACE AND RHYTHM PROBLEM IN AUDO GEAR, SOME OF THAT STUFF IS REAL BAD. Try one at a time,then listen to it, do all over til you get what you need from you set up, I`am not saying REDKIWI IS TOTAL WRONG, BUT WITH THE ROGUE HE IS. Greg
No experience with the Rogue, so my comments are probably not needed. I still think (like Redkiwi) that there are too many things going on in a system to depend on one type of foot. I use the following: Simply Physics, Mod Squad Soft Shoes, Stainless Steel spikes (custom), Walker Valid Points with cups, Sound Anchors Stands (with more Simply Physics), and Iso Bearings. Why so many? Because each piece of equipment reacts differently to feet, depending on all the conditions listed in comments above by everyone! All these comments are true, provided the listener is in the environment that the tests were done in. I really believe that most of us are after similar results. The reason we disagree is due largely to differences in results in various systems. It REALLY VARIES THAT MUCH. So, to beat this dead horse some more, you are going to have to try some of these combinations and find what works in your room and with your system. I am willing to speak with you on the phone and tell you what I think will work, provided you can describe what you do and don't like about the way it is now. All the isolation devices we are speaking about have personalities, and some more than others. All are the "perfect" solution, depending on the situation.
Drumsgreg, I doubt that we are really disagreeing. I was making the point that any seemingly beneficial vibration control device can become detrimental if over-applied. In the case of the Walker Valid Points - I reckon they are great and use them myself. However I did find that in placing the pucks on top of a component, that there was a point where you had too many, and that the problem manifested itself first in pace & rhythm - I should have made this clearer in my post. I was meaning to point to the down-side of over application, not to a down-side I hear with Walker Valid Points when they are judiciously applied.
RedKiwi, Looks like the "pucks" were "PUCKING UP"the sound of your set up , I didn`t get that far with mine, I used the "PUCKS" untill the top end lost some air , then backed off. You could be right on the pace and timing thing if you use to many . Greg
It also makes a big difference WHICH BDR cones you are using. The #3s and #4s sound significantly different; depending on the application one will work better than the other. When I was using only solid state, the 3s were the way to go, the 4s sounded too hard. I'm now using the Pathos TT and combination of #4 cones and #3 Pucks, Round Things and Pits have made a big positive improvemet. My best suggestion is for you to call DJ at BDR and talk with him. I have found him to be right on the money with his advice every time.
Interesting Mcp1. I find the #3s to roll-off the tops and deep bass if used as a threesome, and the #4s to thin and harden the mids if used as a threesome. But there is no general rule - just what I have found more often than not. I find 2 #4s and 1 #3 works best most of the time. The place where I am most happy with the BDR cones is between my Martin-Logan speakers and the very hard floor of my listening room (both use 1/4" UNC thread and so they can be fixed in place easily). But I have never been happy with The Pits or Those Things when used in combination with the cones - it has always resulted in an unacceptable tipping upward of the tonal balance and a flattening of images.