All the best,
I think it all depends on how your cables are terminated, what kind of connections your speakers have, and what the binding posts can handle.
My single-wire Wireworlds have spades. I then bought matching Wireworld jumpers with bananas on one end and spades on the other. That way, you can ensure maximum contact and tightness at the three points.
I'm using banana terminations that do not allow for piggy-backing. In this case it means connecting the cable termination into the KLE product. This is why I'm curious about any inherent advantages / disadvantages doing so. In my (and similar configurations) the jumpers essentially become an adaptor for the main speaker cable termination. With spades, my question doesn't apply.
@david_ten - I cannot provide any scientific proof - but yping has tried using the bananas simply as connectors and heard improvements.
Scroll to the bottom of the first "page" of this thread for his comments
If you have banana plugs and bi-wire speaker terminal this product just provides an easy method of connection them AND they are extremely good at what they do.
The advantage is that the Banana plugs used on them are extremely well engineered and work very well
I use the Bananas on my cables and they provided more of everything across the board - I could not believe what I was hearing from a "simple" banana plug
Sorry I could not provide better comments
Sorry, I can't say right now as I'm still waiting for my speakers. I knew I was going to ditch the plated jumpers and got the DH Labs in the meantime. They're 12 awg silver plated OFC Continuous Crystal with gold plated spades. For the price, they were a bargain. For the purpose, they should do just fine. 👍
All the best,
@loftarasa - Yes - the binding posts can be a "hindrance". But so can the Bananas and the actual wire used.
If you look at the photo of the jumpers you will see that the neutral jumper has a twisted geometry and is of a thicker gauge. This is the design of KLE Innovations higher end speaker cables and is designed to enhance current/electron flow. They also use very high quality metal conductors (sometimes alloys) to improve sound quality, as well as their extremely well engineered bananas plugs.
Using their precision banana it would appear you can improve on the the negative effects of the binding post - at least that was my experience.
When I first tried the Bananas I was very surprised at the improvement in sound quality that I heard - I’m pretty sure these jumpers will improve the performance of most bi-wired speakers using a single speaker cable.
But that "opinion" is based solely on my observations of their other products that I have reviewed/owned
Hope that helps
You're joking, that is a load of nonsense, rubbish, and even shill.
williewonka, lak, and me, think they are great. Others think so, also...
I never understood why people pay a bunch of money for jumpers. There are so many types of high quality wire available in bulk, why not simply attach high quality connectors to 6 to 10-inch pieces of wire and there you go. Personally, I use a spade on one end of the jumper and a banana on the other. The banana can be stacked on the binding post used to connect the main speaker wire (assuming by a spade) while the spade is connected directly to the jumped binding post. This is a better approach than two bananas IMO. However, if the main speaker cables use bananas, then use two spades on the jumpers.
@whitestix - I would have to agree with @yping - I have auditioned - reviewed - and purchased many products from KLE Innovations and have yet to receive a product that does not excel.
Granted - the look of the plastic housing may not be as "pretty" as some audiophiles might like, but the metal part of the banana is very well engineered AND a top performer from a sound quality perspective.
So I have to ask....
- did you actually attach them to some cables and allow them to burn in for 120 hours?
- if so - what did you find were their shortcomings?
- did you return them for a full refund?
- and - did you receive a refund?
I am puzzled by your posting - mainly because assessing something as "Pure Cr**? is not very enlightening to other readers
I have read some of your other posts and it would seem you normally provide useful comments - which makes me wonder why are you so upset with these plugs?
FYI - and for the benefit of other readers...
- YES - you will see I have mentioned KLEI products in numerous forum threads in the past, simply because I found them to be the best products I have tried
- YES - I do contact KLE Innovations from time to time - if only to pass on a review (at no charge) or provide product feedback - that is the extent of my relationship with KLEI
Did KLEI ask me to respond to this rather disparaging comment? - NO!
I think comments such as "pure Cr**" serves no "useful purpose" except to allow a person to vent - i.e. without explanation.
Regards - Steve Reeve
Sorta related to some of the discussion about jumpers (sort of)...
Has anyone come across a dual female to single male banana "splitter"?
This might work though I was hoping for something more compact and without wire. https://www.amazon.com/ProgressiveRC-AC-PSS2-Power-Supply-Splitter/dp/B00CDAOVZA/ref=pd_cp_194_1?_en...
Sorry to speak ill of connectors you fancy. I bought these connectors to pig back the wires from my sub to my 2-channel amp: https://kleinnovations.com/kleiclassic-harmony-banana-by-ss/ They cost $135 and were shipped from AUS.
After receiving them and inspecting them, I sent the following message to KLE:
"I received your Classic Harmony BFA connectors today and I am thoroughly unhappy with them. They are as cheap in construction as the worst of the chinese connectors I have been foolish enough to buy. I find no way to re-open the hinged plastic flap after it has been closed. It is an interesting design, but for the price of $135, the construction is decidedly third-rate. Please send me an RMA for a return of the connectors to a US location (a US dealer) because I am not keen to spend $30 on return shipping costs to AUS."
The plastic housing was thin and poorly manufactured. I never connected them the quality of their construction. I can't see that there was more than a couple of bucks involved in constructing them, but they cost $135. I had to send them all the way back to AUS on my dime and I can acknowledge that I did get a refund. Calling them cr*p was a pejorative term that I should not have used, but frankly it is a perfect descriptor of their quality of construction, and I stand by it. Others like there connectors, including you, so good for all of you.
I did find these connectors from Radio Shack, which to my eye, seem to be virtually identical to those from KLE and sell for a modest $3.00:
I suspect the metal jacks in the KLE design are better, but the RS connectors were, and are, perfectly functional at a total cost of $3.00 vs. $135 for the KLE connectors.
@whitestix - negative feedback sometimes leads to improvements :-)
To address some of your comments...
I find no way to re-open the hinged plastic flap after it has been closedThis one was quite simple to address - simply insert a small screwdriver (or an old banana plug) into the hole over the longer of the two barrels and lever the flap to the open position. But be sure to insert it into the flap and not into the actual metal part of the plug.
This can be done several times, but care should be taken not to overwork the two little locking tabs that hold the flap in place
Perhaps this should have been an included instruction?
The plastic housing was thin and poorly manufactured
I think KLE Innovations is trying to keep the cost as low as possible and as such, they tend to keep costs down where there is no need for extravagantly finished materials. The housing is effective, but I agree, not that pretty to look at
However - the materials used to make the actual conductive part of the plug is extremely advanced and the plug is made to extremely fine tolerances.
As stated in the initial post - they do outperform all other banana connectors I have tried from a sound quality perspective.
When I first received my plugs I must admit I took several minutes to figure out exactly how they should be connected and it was not until they were installed that I figured out how to re-open the flap.
It s a great pity you did not have a more positive experience get to enjoy the improvement in sound quality that these plugs convey.
I will send the link to this thread to KLE Innovations so they can perhaps update their "tips" page on how to reopen the flap.
Regards - Steve
Fair enough, I know you and other audiophiles find sonic joy in their connectors so I don't wish to diminish your zeal for them. Your ears, and your pocketbooks, will be your guide. I would be keen to see an A/B comparison of the KLE connectors I bought to the Radio Shack variants. The KLE connectors I bought were 45X the price of the price of the RS connectors. I would advise followers of this post to give the RS connectors a fair listen compared to the KLE connectors to see which they prefer, and by how much. The KLE connectors may well be worth their added cost compared to the similarly-constructed RS connectors, but only a comparison will properly inform one. Be well, Mark
If you have Radio Shack bananas already why wouldn’t you compare them yourself. If you want cheap why would you want KLE Innovations bananas. Why do you want others to follow your post? I guess that you must be enjoying the Radio Shack bananas?
Amazing, and I think that the KLE Innovations bananas sound amazing.
I like the build design as it as close to no connector as I have seen. Connectors degrade sound compared to bare wire hook up. That goes for binding posts and connectors. I usually bypass both! Many aphile type posts and connectors are very heavy and thick not making for the best transfer. Many contain brass.
These look promising in design. If you don’t like the plastic look then neatly heat shrink over it for a clean look.
@whitestix - after giving your posts more thought I think there are a couple of points that I feel I should address for other readers - so please do not think I am still trying to change your mind.
I bought these connectors to pig back the wires from my sub to my 2-channel ampI think that using the KLEI bananas to connect a sub to an amp via speaker cables may be "overkill" for the following reasons...
The KLE connectors I bought were 45X the price of the price of the RS connectorsLike anything else in this hobby, "value" is subjective and very personal. The level of refinement these plugs bring to my sound system was well worth the cost for me.
FYI - I have tried Radio Shack plugs like those you posted, but on my system I prefer the KLEI Bananas
If the Radio Shack plugs do the job for you - that’s fantastic! You have a solution that works for you AND you saved a bundle - you can’t beat that.
Regards - Steve
It is all good, my friend. REL suggests a high level connection for my T7 subs so that is the way I have been running it, connected to my amp. I have used AQ BFA speaker connectors, but the metal male jacks are suffering from metal fatigue (they are quite thin-walled) from repeated connections to various speakers so I took a flyer and ordered these "Nak" BFA connectors today to replace them:
Yping, you have suggested a math error in my comparison. Two pairs of the RS piggy-back jacks, which are required for a 2-channel audio system, cost $6.00, not $3.00. Therefore, the KLE's are not 45X as expensive, but only 22.5X as expensive. It is quite possible that the incremental cost of $129 for the KLE's is very worthwhile. I, personally was incensed at the quality of construction of the KLE connectors I bought which, to me, had no relationship to their cost.
If your ears and mind tell you something is better, then that is all that the validation you need, regardless of the cost. The coin of the realm is limited and it is fair to point out, for example, more modestly priced connectors that may well allow one to fully enjoy their audio systems at much smaller cost.
Nope, didn’t suggest that at all. I asked, " Which Radio Shack bananas are you buying for USD 30 cents each?"
Lets see there are 8 bananas, AUD$129 is about USD$103.
103/45 (times) = $2.29
2.29/8 bananas = 29.6 cents each (USD)
So, which Radio Shack bananas are you buying for USD 30 cents each, and which Radio Shack outlet are you buying them from?
It is all good my friend, and doesn’t really matter. Perhaps, the best thing you can do is not to stay incensed and just do what REL suggests. You will probably enjoy your system more by doing that. It does appear that the Radio Shack bananas do not work for you either but hopefully the "Nak" BFA connectors will work for you.
You know lots of cars look similar, like several makes of cars look like mercs, but are they mercs. I don’t think so but perhaps some do think so because they look similar.
There are genuine French perfumes, and there are those that look the same and even imitate them, but are they as good?
There is Penfolds Grange red wine that costs $800 a bottle and looks less impressive and cheaper than a blingy $5 bottle of red wine. Which one would you like to drink, if $$$ were not an issue.
Isn’t it great that we have a choice regardless peoples opinions.
Different strokes for different folks!
The KLEI bananas work very well for me in my system. So well in fact that I recently received another eight-pack of them.
No, they don't look like a piece of jewelry, however, I really like what I hear when I use them, in my particular scenario better than a bare wire connection.
“It is not our differences that divide us. It is our inability to recognize, accept, and celebrate those differences.”
― Audre Lorde
Fair enough, lads, we call them as we see (or hear them.)
Yping, your post above poses an excellent subjective question, but rather nonsensically. Your caveat "if money is no object" pushes aside the whole issue of quality/performance vs. value. That makes as much sense as asking if I would prefer a Rolls Royce over my Mazda. Likely I would, but money is intrinsically part of the decision-making process. I believe that there are connectors of similar design and quality to the KLE connectors I bought and sent back that are available for a tiny fraction of the cost of the KLE connectors. The KLE connectors may or may not sound much better, but does their sonic improvement justify their price compared to the alternatives available at a small fraction of the price of the KLE connectors? I do not know for a certainty where the KLE connectors are manufactured, but I could could make a very educated guess. I also have a very good idea of their cost of production and can find no justification for the price of the KLE connectors I received, which are the only ones upon which I can comment.
I have not asserted that the KLE connectors did not sound excellent. My beef was with the quality of their construction and workmanship relative to their cost. I reject the conventional audio wisdom that the more expensive a component or piece of gear is, the better is performs. The $120 fuses that are spoken of so highly on this forum are a prime example. Or the silly aluminum dots that are glued to walls, purported to enhance the sound of one's system. I want to inform audio lovers to consider value when they make their purchases because "money is always an object".
The OP said nothing about "value."
He simply identified a product he thought would probably " live up to their (i.e., KLE's) stellar reputation" although he has not tried them.
If you want the lowest price option and the best sonic result (i.e., the best value), simply remove your binding posts (most dual sets of posts are attached to a plate of some sort so remove the entire plate), and then either,
1. Solder (or connect with ring terminals) all of the positive internal hook up wires to ONE of the positive binding posts and all of the negative internal hook-up wires to the corresponding negative post so you can then use only one set of binding posts with your single wire cables, or
2. Solder (or connect with ring terminals) two very short pieces of high quality wire between the two binding posts, positive to positive and negative to negative, which leaves both sets of binding posts "hot" while negating the need for jumpers
A third option is as grannyring suggests, to solder or crimp your speaker cables directly to the internal hook-up wires, thereby bypassing any binding posts.
@grannyring - re:
I have some coming in to test vs Neotech and bare wire. I will report back. Will be interesting.Would that be the Jumpers (which I have not tried)
- or the Banana plugs - see my review here...
Either way - I would be interested in your observations.
Cheers - Steve
A pal of mine who makes IC's, as well as Don Sachs, the guy who made my preamp, both are big fans of Dueland wire. Don now uses it for the internal wiring in his preamp and rewired his speakers with Dueland wire, a definite improvement from his Supra Ply 3.4 wire he previously used. Both cables are similar in metal construction, but Don clearly prefers the Dueland wire. I use vintage WE 16 ga. wire for my bedroom system, which is quite similar in all aspect of construction to the Dueland wire, and it is betters far more expensive speaker cables I have used in the past. It has a "organic" sound -- clean and clear, such as KLE connectors evidently have.
With KLE connectors, Dueland wiring may be a very economical upgrade for ones' system, for jumpers, IC's or speakers wire.
Whitestix, I agree with you regarding the Duelund and Western Electric wire. Grannyring originally made the suggestion to me and I'm happy.
Duelund tinned - copper in cotton oil impregnated wire. 16 gauge going to my top speaker terminals and 12 gauge going to my lower speaker terminals. Terminated with the KLE Bananas.
Also a pair of speaker cables made with the Heavy Duty Western Electric 10 gauge wire.
FYI - The signal conductors of my speaker cables is currently....
The neutral is...
The cables resolve to a very high degree and provide exceptional dynamic performance, with a deep controlled bass, exceptional clarity and a spacious 3D image.
However, most of their superb abilities is actually due to the Helix geometry.
Adopting a more conventional geometry where signal and neutral conductors run side by side will probably not yield close to the same results.
I did look at Duelund wire, but the fact it is "tinned", which is not as conductive as silver plate, put me off
The Beldon Mil Spec 16 AWG Silver Plated Copper wire is a little more economical than the tinned Duelund and even more economical than the Silver plated Duelund version.
Note: I have found through a lot of experimentation...
- that the neutral can be constructed from a little lower quality conductor without degrading performance.
- PROVIDED: it is at least twice the gauge of the signal conductor
But again, that is using the Helix geometry - I cannot comment on how that design approach might impact conventional geometries, but I have read that it will provide some noticeable improvements.
Personally - I don’t think there is much difference between the Beldon or the Duelund conductors from a sound quality perspective. Both will provide very good sound quality
Regards - Steve
Night and day difference between Duelund and Belden sound. Don’t let your preconceived notions of tinned wire cloud or block an open minded hearing of this great wire. I had the same conventional knowledge and thinking. This wire has lots of folks selling off high dollar cables made of silver and copper. I am just one of them. Belden is closed in and dark sounding compared to Duelund. Two very different sonic signatures and designs actually.
Supra also makes tinned wire, but it also has a different sonic signature from Duelund. You have to consider the type of copper used, tinning process employed, and the all important dialectric. Duelund uses natural cotton fibers impregnated in oil and that certainly impacts the resulting sound also. Tinning is but one attribute in the total recipe.
Easily the best value in cable I have ever experienced and I have owned and tried MANY.
Give it 150 hours of burn in and smile big when you sell your $3000 cables.
@grannyring - Have you tried the actual Beldon wire I used?
If you did try it - did you use it in a Helix geometry cable?
I must admit I do not find it "closed in" and "dark sounding" at all - extremely spacious with a huge image and pinpoint placement of musicians.
Also, the impact of the dielectric tends to be reduced when employing a helix geometry because the conductors are almost at right angles with each other, resulting in very little surface area contact - hence low capacitance and low inductance
OK - so now you got me wondering.
Damn you - I thought I was done :-)
Yes I have tried the Belden wire, but not the braiding you mention. Also, I have never liked the sound of silver over copper cable. I have always found it to be a tad edgy and a tad lean in the past. I am open minded enough to realize there may be one I like however. I actually replaced all the mill spec wire in a set of Tekton Double Impact speakers with the Duelund wire and the improvement was substantial. Looks to be the very same wire as shown in your link.
Sound quality is so very subjective and terms like closed in and dark are relative. It may be we like entirely different sound signatures. I suspect this is in part true.
The Duelund wire is also Cryo treated as an FYI.
@grannyring - re:
Sound quality is so very subjective and terms like closed in and dark are relative. It may be we like entirely different sound signatures. I suspect this is in part true.Yep - I believe that may be the case - different strokes for different folks
(but I still might give the Duelund a whirl)
RE: Cryo treating...
Have you ever compared Cryo treated vs. non-cryo’d wire or components ?
I’ve never had the opportunity to perform this comparison, since it is difficult to find a supplier with the identical products with/without treatment
So I am unable to form any opinion as to any benefit Cryo-treating "might" provide
I have used many cryo’d parts & wire, but they were not selected in preference to items not applying this process - they just came like that
For me, the jury is still out.
Since you appear to be "into" DIY, if you could share any experience you have had WRT cryo treating it would be appreciated.
AND - If anyone else has done this comparison please share your findings also.
Thanks - Steve