bi wiring


Can anyone tell me what the benifits are for bi wiring speakers. It seems to me that you are accomplishing the same thing as using the jumpers at the binding posts. I can see the benifits of bi amping, just a little confused about bi wiring.
jasonh37
Biwiring...biwiring...it's biwiring, not bi-wiring or bi wiring. 'Bi' is NOT a word that when used as a prefix gets attached with a hyphen, it's a nonword prefix that becomes an intergral part of the work it modifies.

And on your question, SEARCH and ye shall find. This comes up at least weekly, and you should be able to find thousands of notes about it. Be sure to use all the variations of the word, and lots of us don't know how to write it.
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Oh well I guess you told me! Thanks for the English lesson.
In case you want your question answered and don't want to do the research, I will attempt to give my definition based upon my understanding of Bi-Wiring. I must preface this with a sincere appology to all experts that will undoubtedly find source of critizism in my definition.
I beleive that the benefit of bi-wiring is that a seprate run from the amp output allows the frequencies to seperate according demand. So the highs and mids seperate themselve from the lows. I think it is more beneficial in speaker wiring that has multiple sizes of wire strans within a cable. The smaller guage wire seems to be more condusive to the highs and mids as these frequencies run at a higher frequency of vibration and the low frequencies seem to travel better on a thicker guage wire. I have done both shotgun and regular bi-wire and can say the I (me personnally no scientific proof) can hear an improvement.
When shotgunning I think you can actually gain if the wire is all of one type or similar guage. I have done a shotgun with two brands of the same guage and found one brand to enhance lows and the other enhanced the mid/highs. Right now I am using a 8 strand 6 guage wire that was purchased as a bi-wire and it seems to benefit the sound as well.
One acid test is to jump them together at the speaker and listen for a difference. One think that is true is this a heavily debated subject and opinions are all over the road.
My suggestion is if budget allows is try it. It all comes down to your system and ears as the final judge.
Again just my opinion here, not claiming to know anymore than any other reader here.
You're welcome.

Did you SEARCH?
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some speakers sound better biwired.
Example: most of the B&Ws, some Vandersteen.

For other speakers it may not matter.

There are different types of bi-wire speaker cables.
Shotgun bi-wire speaker cables - 2 separate runs to speakers, but terminated into a single run on the amp end so you don't have to use 2 sets of binding posts.
Example of this cable is Acoustic Zen Satori Shotgun.

Internal bi-wire cables - terminated as a single run on the amp end, internally biwired with 2 pairs of leads for the speaker end.
Example of this cable is Acoustic Zen HologramII, the biwired version.

Then you can always use 2 totally separate speaker cables if you have 2 sets of binding posts on your amp.

Will your speakers benefit from one config over another?
The only way to find out is to try.
I guess thank you, but next time please bypass my tedious questions and let someone with a little more patients answer. I would rather have no replies than be berated for my lack of knowledge or lack of grammar. I am sorry, but I have just recently started getting into audio. I have only been a member of this sight for approx. 2.5 months. I will try to SEARCH! first next time to save you from carpal tunnel syndrome.
Just as counterpoint, some of Theo's statements are simply not true. For example, "I beleive that the benefit of bi-wiring is that a seprate run from the amp output allows the frequencies to seperate according demand." Cables cannot do this without a crossover.

And, while I have yet to heard any advantage to biwiring (as long as the original wire is adequate), there is no significant disadvantage to it. Try it.

Kal
Hey Jason, Dont worry about Jeff he is Bi-Polar hehehehe
I can only add that I am confused that speaker cable companies would take the time and effort to produce cables that employ different metalurgy and guages of wire in one cable run, if they didn't believe it could make a difference in frequency and time delivery. Jason, I can only suggest that since you have raised the question, that you should experiment with bi-wiring. As mentioned in my original post some people do hear a differnce while some don't. Again it all depends on your ears, and system. There is no right or wrong for everyone. So far you have heard from someone who does and one who doesn't hear a difference. Some speaker manufacturers add bi-wireable connections and others don't. An one last point here Jason, is you never mentioned your speakers or amplification? I wish to add that I am just answering your thread and don't intend to debate the subject. These thougts occurred after my first response. Hope it helps.
I am confused that speaker cable companies would take the time and effort to produce cables that employ different metalurgy and guages of wire in one cable run, if they didn't believe it could make a difference in frequency and time delivery
??? Theo, the propagation "time" differences would be below experimental limits of measurement... electrons run fast -- at close the speed of light in fact (that's faster than a Ferrari). WHy would people produce these? Maybe because it's a product likely to be purchased... As to gauge, you could try very thin wire that would typically favour transfer of higher frequencies vs.. thicker cable that would favour lower frequencies.

Two cables (biwiring) reduce the possibility of intermodulation...

The easiest is to try! Cheers
Anyone who asks Why biwire? will eventually get the response: I've yet to hear a reasonable explanation how it could be advantageous. When that explanation is supplied - biwiring isolates the current passing to the different drivers and allows you to select gauges especially suited for each run - you'll hear that the advantages aren't really advantageous and it's all marketing and nonsense. You've already gotten the best advice - try it. Then rest easy knowing you've exploited the full potential of your speakers.
FWIW, on the few systems I have had which provided for biwiring I could never hear a difference when I was using the same cables (two runs of idential cables), but it sure was a lot of fun to use different cables for the highs and low's as a form of tone control. Now that I've passed that phase I'm back to single runs.

FWIW, not to support pedantry, especially that of English 'teachers', there was an extensive and interesting post on biwiring within the last 6 months well worth reading if you can find it. :-)
I thought it was bi polar?

I'd definately check the med ication

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1. Actually, Chad, I'm neither Bi-polar nor bi-polar nor bipolar. I'm just a nice guy who’s been an audiofool almost 50 years and who tries to help people help themselves and who also knows how to spell and punctuate words that include prefixes.

2. 'Pedantry'? There ARE right and wrongs ways, New. Why not do it correctly?

3. Kal: "...some of Theo's statements are simply not true. For example, "I beleive (sic) that the benefit of bi-wiring (sic) is that a seprate (sic) run from the amp output allows the frequencies to seperate (sic) according (to) demand." Cables cannot do this without a crossover."

Your statement is correct, but the 2 cables are indeed driving a crossover, inside the speaker. The frequencies divide in the cables based on the impedances each is driving, with all frequencies taking the path(s) of least resistance. The 'high' cable is driving impedance that rises as the frequencies decrease and hence passes a lower proportion of lower v. upper frequencies, while the 'low' cable drives higher impedances as the frequencies increase and passes a lower proportion of high frequencies. (This all works the same way in passive biAMPing.)

One distinct advantage to biwiring a speaker system that divides bass from midrange and highs (typically a 3-way) is that this allows one to use a high-gage, very-low-resistance cable on the bass that's also inexpensive. For instance, on bass-only systems, I use home-AC cable composed of four 14g. conductors in a twisted quad. (Picture at http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/wi.mpl?u=30777&f=Speakercable_700w.jpg&w=700&h=391 ; on the left.) The double 14s net to 11g.*, which achieves better driver damping than a smaller-gage cable, and it's VERY inexpensive. One doesn't get that benefit when the speaker's crossover splits frequencies into bass and MR v. treble (as a 2-way usually does), but this split allows one to use VERY-high-quality conductors for treble fairly inexpensively because one pair of conductors is plenty adequate for the low amount of power in the treble. For instance, one could use 22g. 4-nines silver in 18g. Teflon airtubes and get great-sounding treble, better than thru the probably-multiple-copper conductors of more-complex, more-expensive full-range cables.

Trying biwiring can be easy or difficult. Questions abound. Here are two--should I BUY another cable same as mine? What if the cable I borrow is different length than mine? The list goes on and on. Of course it could be easy if a buddy has just the cable one wants to try.

I have heard benefits, mostly increased transparency, from biwiring. They’re subtle but real, at least for me.

Audioquest has a good discussion of cable theory including biwiring (starting on p. 11) on its site... http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/aq_cable_theory.pdf . Seems to me ALL of us would benefit from reading it.
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* A little tidbit that few of us understand is that every time the same-size conductor count is doubled or halved, the net gage changes by 3. This is easy to remember because it's the same as power measured in deciBels--double or half, change is 3dB.
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Jeff you know I was just kidding, and for others......... I have talked with Jeff on phone and over emails about a DIY center channel idea....he is great help and a nice guy.
"Your statement is correct, but the 2 cables are indeed driving a crossover, inside the speaker. The frequencies divide in the cables based on the impedances each is driving, with all frequencies taking the path(s) of least resistance. The 'high' cable is driving impedance that rises as the frequencies decrease and hence passes a lower proportion of lower v. upper frequencies, while the 'low' cable drives higher impedances as the frequencies increase and passes a lower proportion of high frequencies. (This all works the same way in passive biAMPing.)" Hmm. Depends how you measure it. If you measure voltage, you won't see it. If you measure current, you will. So, it may be a semantic issue and the intermodulation red herring is debatable. As for passive biamping, the only effect MIGHT be in the output stage that sees the load but intermodulation is possible in all the other stages.

Overall, I have yet to see a reliable technical argument for any significant enhancement due to biwiring nor have I ever experience such an enhancement subjectively. OTOH, as I said above, since there's no downside but cost and bother, everyone should try it and trust his own ears.

Kal
Well thank you, Chad!
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The latest edtion of Hifi Critic (#2) has a very nice article about cables and discusses the biwiring (is that right?) issue in some detail. I won't attempt to rehash the article as I would likely get it wrong but bottom line is the author thinks it worthwile to try *if* your speakers are set up for this, for what seems like real (not metaphysical) audio engineering considerations.
just happened to read this tonight
http://www.sonicdesign.se//biwire.html
Could there also be dissadvantages??
And Jeffery yes it is biwire.
Jeff, I might be a smartass but if I feel misunderstood I try to set the record straight :)
If the speaker is designed to properly take advantage of biwiring, it does make a discernable difference.

There is no voodoo in biwiring. Low frequencies actually do carry with them a large magnetic field that will modulate delicate high frequencies traveling within the same cable. Biwiring simply isolates the high frequencies from this strong magnetic field by providing a dedicated path for each.

Those who are single wiring will be surprised if they compare the sound of their speakers with the single cable going to the treble connections and jumpering down to the bass vs. the opposite. Whichever driver(s) are getting the direct connection sound noticably clearer and more articulate than the driver(s) connected via the jumper. In my experience, no matter how good the quality of the jumper, this is the case.

The best way to single wire is to cross wire. Run your positive to the treble positive and your negative to the bass negative and jumper positves to each other and negatives to each other. This averages the loss in sonic performance evenly across the whole speaker. Try it.
Davemitchell wrote:

"Low frequencies actually do carry with them a large magnetic field that will modulate delicate high frequencies traveling within the same cable."

This is true however my new Synergistic Research Tesla speaker wires are designed to control and cancel out these fields for more articulate signal transfer. The proof is in the pudding but I've never tasted pudding like this! I can't say enough good about these new cables. They do not bi-wire in the traditional way, are flexible and have the deepest and tightest bass I have ever heard. They also present the widest and deepest sound stage I've ever heard and this I believe has something to do, at least in part, with the way the speaker cables get out of the way and just let the music through.
Wow, it looks like my tedious question has resulted in a boatload of information. I really appreciate all of the responses. I will give (BIWIRING) a try and trust my ears, which seems like the only way to find out the benefits if any. Thanks for all of your help, imagine the amount of responses if I only knew how to spell.
"Jeffreybehr" I cant believe that someone "YOU" has the balls to just insult someone base on their grammar, I find that personally to be insultive and judgemental! Sorry but I am a product of the public educational system :)~
For what it is worth, here is something about bi-wiring http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/bi-wiring-from-amplifier-to-loudspeaker.
I biwire.
Well Jason after all of this I hope that you will share your experinces with bi-wiring pos or neg. Also let us know what speakers, wire and amp you use. Always good to have some input for or against.
Davemitchell,

"The best way to single wire is to cross wire. Run your positive to the treble positive and your negative to the bass negative and jumper positves to each other and negatives to each other. This averages the loss in sonic performance evenly across the whole speaker. Try it".

I tried it and it does improve the overall balance of
my Dali speakers. I think they are one of the speakers
that are designed to be biwired (I just have not done it yet) and I did not like the sound of the speakers jumped
from top to the bottom as much, but rather "bottom to the
top".(Better overall) But this seems to have evened out the two pretty well.

Next stop will be biwire cables, as soon as I can figure
out which ones to buy.

Dali Icon 6
Jolida 302BRC
Cayin CDT-17A

Thanks,
Bob
Glad it helped Bob.
Davemitchell, I found your post above interesting and has motivated me to post what I'm currently doing. Normally I wouldn't have shared this. (Because it probably doesn't make sence).
I have 3 way Talon Firebirds that are biwireable. My Lamm M1.2 Ref. mono's have 2 sets ea. binding posts. On the top I'm using Stage III Concepts Vacuum Ref. They're mostly silver ribbons with a little gold in a vacuum. I used to jump down with Vacuum Ref. jumpers to good effect. Then I added Jena Labs (lots of high purity cooper) to the bass. Better. Then, and this is what I didn't want to mention, I put the Vacuum Ref. jumpers back in with both cable runs.
To me, in my system, this sounds best. Go figure.
Frank
Frank,

With very few exceptions, you really don't want to use two completely different models or brands of cables for biwiring. You want the two cables to be identical or at least very similar in character. I believe that the reason you like the sound better with the otherwise unnecessary jumpers back in is because what you are doing is blending the two cable's sounds together. By defeating the split crossovers for biwiring and running two speaker cables you are really just shotgun wiring your speakers with two different cables and averaging their sound across the whole speaker.

The advantages of true biwiring are not as important as having consistent and coherent sound from the top to bottom of your speakers.

I would wager that if you had two identical sets of whichever is your favorite cable, say the Stage III Vacuum Ref., you would like the sound much better with them biwired properly (with the jumpers removed).
Thanks, Dave.

Frank
Here's why biwiring works...
For those who know a bit about the different video cables (stay with me!), the worst is composite. That's because the color and luminance signals have to travel together down the one cable and interfere with each other. Once you separate them (S-video), the difference is very visible.
Likewise with speaker cable, the full range of frequencies must travel together the full length of the cable, which may be several metres long. They are then only split by the the low & high pass filters once they reach the speaker.
Now with biwiring, the amp doesn't "know" which cable to send the highs and lows down. But what happens is this: the cable to the tweeter is connected to a high pass filter in the speaker, which means the amp sees a continuous circuit for high frequencies, but very high resistance to lows - virtually an open circuit - and so no lows can travel along that cable. Likewise, the bass cable connects to a low pass (or high cut) filter which blocks high frequencies, thus preventing high frequencies from traveling through that circuit. This split occurs at the speaker terminals and means the low and high frequencies don't interfere with each other as they travel to the speaker.

Now, how audible this difference is, or the merits of using different metals for conductors, is another argument altogether! I haven't tested it, but my guess would be that over short runs with good cable, it's probably only very very slight.
Carl, great analogy! I treid to make that point in my post
but was, as usual quickly discounted. Thank You.
Mixing cables: I mixed speltz on the tweeter with cardas golden reference on the woofer and the result was better than the sum of the parts. Kooky, but good. Jeff
Just try it. Every speaker that I have owned that is set up for bi-wiring sounds better bi-wired.
Isn't that what it is all about?